Too many at the top
A comparison with the number of senior ranks in the Israeli Defence Forces shows that Indian Army is overcrowded at the top.
In response to this Times UK article on the burgeoning number of senior officers in the British Army, KoW blog compares them to the number of senior officers in the Israeli Defence Forces.
By contrast, the Israeli Defence Forces, approximately the same size as the UK’s, appears (to judge by their ORBAT) to get by with just 40 brigadiers, and 16 generals of all types (1 Lt Gen) for all three services. How do they get by?[KoW]
It would be instructive to have a quick look at the number of senior ranks in the Indian Army in comparison. Indian Army, by all publicly available estimates, is 12 to 14 times the size of the Israeli Defence Forces. Indian Army, before the announcement of AVS-2 recommendations in October 2008, had 1 General, 67 Lieutenant Generals, 216 Major Generals and 866 Brigadiers. The AVS-2 recommendations have added another 20 Lieutenant Generals, 75 Major Generals and 222 Brigadiers to its rolls.
Simple arithmetic means multiplying the IDF senior ranks by 14 for a rough equivalence for the Indian Army. Although this would be a crude comparison, it would still provide an approximate idea of the overpopulation at senior levels in the Indian Army. By applying IDF yardsticks to the Indian Army, the number of Generals should be 224 [16*14] and those of Brigadiers should be 560 [40*14]. Indian Army, in comparison, has 379 Generals [1.7 times the IDF ratio] and 1088 Brigadiers [1.95 times the IDF ratio] after implementation of the AVS-2 recommendations. Needless to say, it could certainly do with far less senior ranks. For that to happen however, our decision-makers would need to figure out that aggregated self-interest of a group of individuals serving in an organisation is not the same as organisational interest, leave alone the national interest.
This congestion at the top is exactly what former Navy Chief Admiral (Retd) Arun Prakash had warned the nation about in his piece a couple of years ago — All Chiefs and No Indians.
Good point to ponder,the defence services could do better with fewer Generals. Would be interesting to see a similar comparison of our bloated bureaucracy.Do throw some light on that.
After I joined the navy, I remember first noticing that jobs that were earlier being handled by Lieutenants were slowly shifting up the ranks to Lt Cdrs and Cdrs. This was quite clearly a result of ‘un-delegation’ where increasingly, senior officers were afraid that juniors would ‘mess things up’. The AVSC has simply sought to reduce the number of years one takes to reach a rank, thereby alleviating financial issues vis-a-vis perceived parity with the civil services. Both are unfortunately conflicting in their approach.
In Israel army may not be requiring to become the General to get the dues deserved by an army officer here do’nt forget pragmatic ji that if you compare all the officers of class one level it is only army where only 4-5 percent (major general ) get the grade pay of 10000 whereas in others all get it.
In 1947 the fauji pRO in dilli had 1 capt / major, one havildar and one typewriter. today in that org (in a stuffy little unventilated cubbyhole in s. block ) generals and colonels lurk.
Others interesting too.
Russian
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/4787089/Vladimir-Putin-faces-rising-anger-from-within-Russian-army.html
American
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlead/articles/20090930.aspx
Trivially, the Pentagon has twice the reqd number of loos as it was built during the days of military racial segregation and the crumbling Sena Bhawan building has half the reqd number due to the rigidly reserved susu terminals.
Hey, why do we need babus at all?? What about the obscenely obese Civil Services who appear only serve themselves. At least the Forces do some honest work:) Let the Brigs, Gens remain, they are the only beacons of hope left in an otherwise corrupted nation.
Now that you have broached the topic of ranks, could you also, by the way, go into the file references of ‘running pay bands’ ? I totally agree that as an army we need to be lean everywhere , including at the top.
That ,of course, does not absolve us from:-
1. Ensuring dignity for our ranks.
2. Ensuring a decent way of life.
In effect, do remain holistic in your approach ( an attribute that remains in askance from many of your pieces)
@kurian jose
“Let the Brigs, Gens remain, they are the only beacons of hope left in an otherwise corrupted nation.”
maybe the officer subcaste emphasis is now overgarlanded. Currently, exclusive ‘generals clubs’ exist in many cities eg chandigarh. next step exclusive ‘gofficers messes’, canteens, and of course different battlefields ?
@NCE
…next step exclusive ‘gofficers messes’, canteens, and of course different battlefields ?…
Class distinction made Britain great, the best rose and ruled, egalitarianism is the refuge of the also rans (no offense meant). Read ‘The Men Who Ruled India’, by Philip Mason.
ouch. a shaft of sunlight. however, don’t remember having seen so many in your face needle_ss caste assertions from ’49 to ’99.
@NCE,
Class dearie, not caste, big difference:)
Class is an acquired trait, earned and recognised even by the crass!
…however, don’t remember having seen so many in your face needle_ss caste assertions from ‘49 to ‘99…. Well, so what? Always a first time;)
Kurian jose
sir if you think COLs and GENs are the only hope then it means only one thing is that
YOU THINK LIKE A KOOP MANDOOK
“Needless to say, it could certainly do with far less senior ranks”
Military ranks diluted by classified brass doing non military functions – eg Director General Married Accommodation Project, Director Auditoriums, Directors of Grocery & Liquor vends, School / College Student trainers, wannabe May school directors, Director Army Institute of Fashion Design. Also many karnail, jarnail in military pro office Dilli sleepily reading free newspapers, magazines. So on. Not good teat to tail.
http://csdindia.gov.in/Customer/OrganisationChart.aspx
http://www.csd.gov.pk/aboutus.html
http://dgmap.gov.in/dg/contact.html
http://nccindia.nic.in/dg.htm
http://www.aifdonline.in/management.htm
@kartik
I am glad I managed to provoke a response from u Kartik. From the tone of your riposte, you seem to be young with lots of josh! Keep it up:)
No, I respect all the ranks, they all have their importance. I was merely pointing out the sheer inanity of focusing on the infrastructure without setting or attempting to identify any benchmarks for efficient performance, as Pragmatic is wont to do. He (ie PE) does bring to light interesting data, but more as a petulant schoolboy, cribbing, than as a constructive participant.
So, Kartik, what do you have to say about a leaner holy cow (a visually interesting bovine simile), the Civil Services? I am sure that interesting parallels can be drawn with our babus in all the areas of dysfunction that seem to perpetually distress Pragmatic;)
@ Kurien Jose 14
The civil services can do with a lot of leaning(?) (pardon the crass grammar). Chairman, Police uniform corporation (DGP rank), Chairman Police Housing Corporation (DGP rank), Chairman Tamil Nadu Housing Board (usually an IAS officer of Secretary rank) are some of the anachronisms. Six to seven DGP rank officers in each state , similar state of Chief Secretary level officers – the top ranks of civil services have proliferated like the amoeba. Could do with a lot of thinning down.
In order to tide over the situation (again created by buerocracy),equating army ranks with status and pay with t hat of civilians should be immeditely be removed.secondly the MOD should completely be held by Military people.The interaciton with elected political leaders (Gvernment)should be directly through Armed forces.As far as pay is concerned hope the government will Appoint all military people except few(inludes chairman)From civil service on pay commission.The terms of referance of this commission should be in favour of the armed forces and canbe first step towards delinking of civilian pay scale with that of Armed forces.
@ Murthy!! Agreed . But let us see how many more agree with you.
@Murthy!! You have wonderful suggestions; but putting your suggestion in practice will voilate a fundamental principle of the Indian govt- in fact of the Indian Society ie exploit the meek and disciplined and reward the rouges.
Someone who does not have a vote or a nuisance value is open to exploitation and the forces cannot expect the Indian society to give them what they are rightfully asking for since they are already doing what is required by the Indian society. So since the forces are already doing an excellent job and have been put in a frame work of rules where they cannot protest; what is the commercial logic of doing what you are telling
Have not are arguments for many justifiable demands of the forces been stone walled by one mother of arguments by the super babus that ‘ this will cost too much and there are no funds”
So what you say is correct but ‘unimplementable”
[...] for the record, here is a rough comparison that this blog had done of the proportion of senior military ranks in the Israeli defence forces [...]
PE,
You forget that the Israeli Defence Force is a conscript force with EVERYONE , and that would have included you and all the other arm chair tacticians , needing to do a 2 year stint the the Armed Forces. Your take on that ? I am not defending the Armed Forces and saying all’s hunky dory, but when one sees the picture , try to focus , as you so often have patronisingly told the Armed Forces to do, on the bigger picture.
The comparison with IDF is interesting, actually! Though not carried out to its logical conclusion. The esteemed bloggers (above) had a temporary spell of amnesia in mentioning that Israel has a system of conscription for five years and it is your performance in those five years that dictate which favoured company gives you a job or how respected you are as a politician (for example). Except that it is not a conscription because everyone looks forward joyfully to this tenure.
Imagine a good looking, well educated, reasonably articulate young man with the right well to do ‘white’ family background but no political skills other than being photographed with his (foreign) girlfriend watching some stupid baseball match when the entire country was gripped in the fever of the Kargil War, being slated to be The next leader of the youth and considered a very eligible bachelor.
In Israel, no girl with any self respect would be even seen dead with someone of that ilk. neither would he have even been considered suitable for bumbling about in politics.
Also no Bureaucrat or politician or PE would have ever spoken against them because they would have been integral to it at some time in their lives and also they would know that if ever the occasion arose, the whole country will, in a matter of just merely four hours come together as a whole to fight against whatever external threat was there.
Two point Moral of the story:
Alpha, compare only with people similar to you. Your brand of opportunistic patriotism can I think be considered more in keeping with something like…………. Pakistan! Definitely, not Israel!
Bravo, (I am constrained by he rules of posting to leave out this more interesting but slightly(objectionable) one but I am sure you will guess
it could be ok. there have been desi jarnails with hungarian and greek etc spouses. also indian pm’s with brit friends not mistresses. venezuela should not face khap objections
And now we have crisp freshly retired Brigadiers joining the re-employed!!
One really has to pity the working hands (ie selection grade Cols, Lt Cols and Majors) who will now have the onerous responsibility of carrying yet another carcass around their neck (and possibly also shifting into the corridor/tea room to accommodate the re-employed Brigadier’s office).
Mind you – everyone is already suffering enough with all those re-employed and time scale Colonels floating around.
The modern Indian Army has no real hierarchy so to speak of beyond the rank of a Major…everyone calls everyone else “Sir” and all this talk of making the “selection process” more realistic is just so much bullshit in face of this avalanche of time scale and re-employed ranks with running pay scales.
Today, many regret being considered “Fit” by a selection board because all it results in is more toil. The rank itself has been diluted beyond belief.
And what about the actual Brig who is going to have a just retired Brig on his back as a G1? We sure are suicidal as an organization!
It would be more helpful perhaps to just pay them the money and ask them to stay at home!
brigs being neither fish nor fowl; just an intermediate sex between jarnails and also rans need work. keep ‘em coming pl.
@all is fair
Whatever species they may be, rest assured they’re gonna feed on the lowly insects (you know who) and screw up the already overstretched eco-system.