Let’s debate civil-military relations
Public reactions by military veterans to Defence Minister’s advice to the Army Chief portend a dangerous course ahead. This can be reversed by having an honest debate on civil-military relations.
Well, so it turns out that the Chief of Army Staff, General Deepak Kapoor — after much dithering earlier — has followed the advice of the defence minister, Mr AK Antony and initiated court-martial proceedings against a three-star general, Lt General Avadesh Prakash. To most observers, it seems to be most obvious and prudent course of action that General Kapoor — with his record of past problems with Lieutenant General Panag — could have pursued after the incessant media coverage and in keeping with the ‘advice’ of the minister. But trust our retired brass and self-styled veteran leaders to be different.
“It is the duty of the government to make lions and tigers out of soldiers, not mice,” an exasperated Major General Satbir Singh, the vice-chairman of the Ex-Servicemen’s Movement, said.
Singh wrote in a letter: “This probably is the first time ever where the defence minister has bypassed all laid-down norms of propriety and the well-tested judicial system of the defence forces. This is nothing but direct interference in the performance of duties of the COAS (Chief of Army Staff). If appropriate corrective measures are not taken, it will deter the future commanders from using their discretion and taking bold decisions which are so essential in the battlefield scenario.”
The veterans’ association leader is indignant and says the army chief should be his own person. “I would, therefore, implore the chief of army staff to kindly take action as per his own bidding which will enhance the prestige of the office he holds. The whole nation is watching him,” he wrote.[Telegraph]
Former army chief, General (retired) Ved Malik is not too far to be left far behind in his audacious suggestion to resolve the situation.
General Malik wondered if there was a quieter way to resolve the dispute after a court of inquiry in Calcutta indicted the military secretary and three other generals. He recalled that in one instance, a lieutenant general was confronted with evidence of wrongdoing by his superiors and told to either resign or face disciplinary action. The lieutenant general resigned and is now abroad.[Telegraph]
Till a few weeks back, it was obligatory for most uniformed commentators to pronounce — albeit wrongly as this old blogpost brings out — that civil control of the military meant exclusive control by the political executive which should be free of any ‘interference’ by the civil bureaucracy. This view was emboldened by the role of Mr Antony during the pay commission controversy— which Shekhar Gupta memorably described as akin to that of a trade union leader of the services — and has since led to a lot of belligerence on part of the veterans, who somehow claim to also voice the opinion of the serving members of the armed forces. It is interesting to note that the principle of civil control, as enunciated by the veterans then, has also been dispensed as soon as the defence minister’s advice to the army chief has not been to their liking.
These latest reactions are actually just a step-up from the tirade launched against the media and the nation by many ex-military officers-turned-commentators. However, to dismiss these tendentious remarks as immature and made by veterans out of a sense of corporate loyalty for the implicated officers is to overlook the larger question that has raised its head time and again since the pay commission fracas broke out. What is the place of Indian defence services in the Indian Republic? What is the defining feature of civil-military relations in this country?
These questions can no longer be brushed under the carpet or answered by platitudes. They deserve answers which are relevant to today’s India. These answers can only come from engaging all the stakeholders, and not by shouting at each other. This controversy, in fact, provides a great opportunity to initiate an honest debate on the state of civil-military relations in this country. A great place to begin the debate is by having a look at the ideal state of civil-military relations.
It is pathetic to see people who are in the Cabinet and running the country do not understand the very basis of democratic governments.
If there is no trust between the civilian and military sides, and the useles politicians exarcerbate this with their idiocy, all these articles that speak as if India will last beyond 2050 are not worth the paper they are written on — India will fall apart in the next major confrontation that requires the army to defend India. If I was an Indian soldier observing all this ugliness and knowing that my life has no value to Indian leaders, I would await the first chance to quit the army and make a living as a civilian. India does not deserve to be defended or to remain in one piece if these are the kind of people who are going to be lording over you and me until the end of time.
We all have only one life — it does not matter how large or how small the country we occupy is going to be, as long as our lives can be lived fruitfully. Being ruled by thieves and criminals with no justice is no life worth living.
Excellent. Let us start by having a discussion on this blog. If some useful ideas get thrown up as a result, I am sure that those will find resonance elsewhere and may well contribute to an improvement to the situation obtaining today.
For that it is necessary that the posts are cogent and well argued and not emotional and high strung.
For starters, I suggest setting up of two commsions, First and Administrative Reforms Commisssion and Second a Blue Ribbon Commission on Defence to reiview the entire gamut of issues including structures, manning, interfaces etc. The Commissions need to be set with Parliamentary mandate and with unalterable timelines for submission of reports and their processing.
A question however remains-with the propensity of politicians and bureaucrats in our country to bury anything remotely inconvenient and the strong nexus that exists between them, what kind of structures will have to put in place to ensure that the reports do not meet the fate of earlier ARCs.
The blame for this whole disgusting affair is to be laid fairly and squarely with the COAS. It is indeed a sad state of affairs if the incumbent COAS cannot trust the judgment of his own Eastern Army Cdr who will very soon be his successor. Had Gen Kapoor been less subjective and more objective, he would have been spared the utter ignominy of having his authority(improperly exercised in this case) undermined(rightly so) by the Def Min.
Be that as it may. Is the Def Min any kind of a commander of the Armed Forces? Does the Def Min possess the constitutional authority to directly countermand that of the COAS in this regard or will it be within the domain of the President? Advising the COAS to take a particular course of action is fine but exerting his own authority to force the COAS to indeed take the advised course and substantiate it with the requisite regulations is entirely different, the supine nature of the present top leadership notwithstanding. Prag, you could perhaps shed some light on this imbroglio by suggesting some concrete steps which the Def Min could take.
For the good of the Army and his own self respect, Gen Kapoor should now accept the blame for his misjudgment and resign ASAP. He will regain at least a modicum of respect from the rank and file. He will be ill advised to brazen it out. Such people become pariahs in their own society – witness the difference in the way Gens Malik and JJ Singh are treated at the same venue. One is today a relative nobody but is approached by most attendees for a chat while the other is a Gov but is mostly ostracized…
More cheek please – As M’s and C’s are different and former do not operate on a flat lattice (ref WL Gore Associates) any time or space – the Fauj’s mechanisms best left alone.
More trite, triviality, diff. vs integral calculus, Mars vs Venus examples pl.-
(a) A VC winner was once jailed for stealing a cow but a while ago an Indian top Judge, against all norms and municipal rules run a dairy full of cows in his compound in Delhi and sold milk. Despite a newspaper expose nothing happened.
(b) Some civvy glasshouse bullshit. If the same Manners, Morals, Mores, 11 Commandments must apply then there is a case for AA Sec 63 and the draconian US civil ‘disorderly conduct’ laws being applicable on Indi civvy street. Few out of jail then.
Civvy outrage seems mostly rooted in hypocrisy. If an occasional bank santri is seen taking a dollar tip whilst trillion dollar loot bonuses are free for all within and across ground reality outside methinks Venus protests too much.
I think the discussion needs to stop the “so what if I have something hanging off my nostril, your fly is open” kind of responses.
Specifically, here is the reality:
1. There are corrupt and incompetent civilian leaders
2. There are corrupt and incompetent military leaders
We seem to be discussing neither when we say “civilian-military relations” — if we were only to consider the bad apples (1 and 2 above), then wouldn’t that imply the game is already lost?
So maybe what is first needed is a clear choice to leave corruption out of this debate, except for the cases of civil-miltary relations in corruption cases. There also seems to be a case of neglecting the view and opinions of the armed forces on strategic matters. IMO, this is only natural considering that the nation’s strategy subsumes the strategies of the armed forces. So, logically, the armed forces should be made to work on specific issues under their brief, and all of these works together present a coherent national strategy that achieves results.
But, IMO, without trust or respect, a gap in perception between the civilian and the military end during times of conflict would be very dangerous for all of India.
If the Bureaucrats and the Politicians have a nexus is because they suspect that the Armed forces will stage a coup on them, then maybe there are more serious problems in the country’s civilian-military relations than just have a commission that can sort it out.
If I was an army guy, I would find such a sentiment insulting and demeaning — people usually don’t out and deliberately get shot at for fun.
All these Generals start behaving like kings once they become CO in the unit. After that do not want any body to question their ideas and decisions. and they can be tamed by some body who can show them their aukaat.
you just remove army act and you see all these COLs and Generals totally transparent and all corruption they do will be open. untill now they just start haraassing any body who question their corruption in the unit and same thing they continue till they retire as corruption.
it is a request to Defence minister to immediately implement one law that any body complaing against corruption in army can never be subjected to punishment given under army act and you will see whole army top brass starting from COLs level will be exposed
@SR Murthy
sir you are lucky that you are not in army else you would have died of shame because of the things which actually exists on ground in the units and level of corruption the COs indulge in the unit and the level they go down just to get a 9 pointer ACR i tell you sir it is really a shame. murthy sir they exactly behave like kings who just do not want to hear any criticism.
If I was a civilian leadership that saw a broad section of the army behave in a manner that was against the public interest, then wouldn’t concern about men with guns challenging the rule of law be valid?
It would, but only if it was the kind of civilian leadership that concludes that it just rained whenever the ground is wet. If the Indian civilian leadership bothered think a little more critically, they would know that they have nothing to fear from the Armed forces. But that also puts the onus on the Armed forces people to behave with honour…winking at corrupt fellow officers “for the greater good of the army” is not honourable behaviour in any planet, if such things do indeed happen.
The people in the army are not robots, they are Indian citizens themselves with families and friends all over the country. This results in a dynamic that protects the civilian leadership from such moves to usurp power. The soldier will not do something that dishonours his family and nothing would be more dishonourable than working against the very country you signed up to protect.
Besides, the Army is hierarchical in structure, so any individual who wants to topple the civilian leadership needs to have the support of not only his subordinates but also of his peers and possibly his superiors, who in turn need to command the respect of their cadre. Destroying India’s democratic roots would certainly not be tolerated by any Indian Soldier on the ground today, and that is the truth. Soldiers won’t dishonour themselves in front of their family and friends who look at them as defenders of the country, not destroyers of the country.
kartik, It makes me sad to hear that there are such disreputable men hiding themselves behind the badge of the Army.
I agree with you. There should be a whistleblower telephone/email hotline and a process for protecting the identities of the people who come forward. They can be made to depose in front of a judge in private by a independent commission, that then makes an independent inquiry to verify the claims. Once there is sufficient evidence to legally charge the errant officer, the deposition of the whistleblower can be used against the corrupt officer without revealing the identity of the whistleblower.
If the whistleblower is trying to get personal vendetta against someone, there needs to be a law in the books that makes that a criminal offense for wasting the time of the state in frivolous matters, the same laws that are used in the case of crank calls that keep down airplanes can be used.
Once the claims are verified, and if the Officer has broken a non-military law, then he must be dishonourably discharged and the public prosecutor must charge the person as any other common criminal.
If the officer broke a military rule, then that is not the concern of the civilian side. however, Officers acquiring land and wealth by being corrupt
surely violates various laws on the civilian and the military side, and that should be grounds for prosecution. And if there are no such laws yet, maybe there should be.
A Soldier who does not behave honourably is a well-dressed thief in Camouflage.
For starters, a notice of this information on whistleblowing should probably be posted in all army cantonments etc., and precautions to take to avoid the whistleblowee from figuring who did it.
There should also be a strong: WARNING at the end of the Notice that points out the specific laws against people who make false complaints or complaints that do not have any basis in reality.
This process cannot become a liability to either the civilian or the military leadership. The whole point is to protect the integrity of the leadership, not make their job more difficult by creating new problems under the name of “find the truth all the way down to its tonsils”.
Some advice to whistleblowers should include:
1. Do not call from your own cell/home phone
2. Always use a public phone and do it when you are alone.
3. Get the name/identification of the officer on the other side, and answer the questions helpfully and correctly.
4. Act Natural. Just make the call or meet with someone when you get out of town next or when you are expected to be out.
No land has been sold, No money paid, No one bribed, but the media scandalizes and the Minister directs strict action against a very senior officer. Why ? because he is an army officer. They all want to prove how intolerant they are towards any wrong doing. The law on corruption, intolerance etc only apply to the Armed Forces. Suitcases full of money, bribing a politician on tehelka tv, money bag on door steps of a judge, money in parliament house, Bofors commission, …….the list is endless, but no one get punished. The trend to victimize and humiliate a disciplined Force is disturbing and not in the interest of the Nation. Mr Defence Minister try to correct the malaise not find scapegoats. The issue of just a NOC, without the deal going through, is nothing in front of ‘NOCs’ being issued daily by Sharad Pawar for raising prices which affect the whole Nation (except the rich politicians).What action against this Minister whose very face on the TV is an profecy of impending price rise ? We are hypocratic nation trying to reach greater heights in this Art. Mera Bharat mahan ?
The custodians of law in the Parliament and elsewhere have nothing but contempt for the law. Whistleblowers can be just as effective in exposing criminals and bureaucracy and politics. But if the whistleblower is going to get killed for his act of bravery, either due to the incompetence/corruption of those whose duty it is to protect the whistleblowers, then nothing will come out of this.
Cautionarilly, a corrupt government bureaucracy will use every opportunity to discourage whistleblowing, or to prove that it does not work, or otherwise make sure such schemes fail, so that may be an indicator of how bad the problem really is.
Also, the military side must be allowed to demand higher standards of probity and consequences of their soldiers than civilians.
I would recommend people to watch the TV show “Law and Order” to see the interaction between the police and the DA’s office in getting criminals to book. There must be TV shows of this nature in India that teaches people that they have rights. It is only through demonstrations of justice can the state empower the people, and the people can then empower themselves.
“It is the duty of the government to make lions and tigers out of soldiers, not mice,” an exasperated Major General Satbir Singh, the vice-chairman of the Ex-Servicemen’s Movement, said.
And the General saheb thinks that a soldier becomes lion by blindly accepting all the nonsense being done by their COLs and Gens
sir in fact the soldiers are very happy that at last justice will be done and they expect more from defence minister to curb the corruption staring from COs leve only so that these COs when they become General do no start behaving like as if no body will question them
In fact defence minister should open chain direct with soldiers so that army can be removed of all the corrupt COLs and GENs (you will suprised to know most of them think no body can question them because of army act and this act is used to crush all those who open their mouth
He recalled that in one instance, a lieutenant general was confronted with evidence of wrongdoing by his superiors and told to either resign or face disciplinary action. The lieutenant general resigned and is now abroad
Wonderful since the day he was CO kept doing corruption and when caught he was given foreign trip why not jail?
@all above
I think the topic of the debate is civil military relations
And not a comparison between the two to decide who is more corrupt.
Many a people have commented opn corruption here rather than actual point raised for debate.
To start with the point raised by PE about Shwekhar Gupta’s comment on trade union leader of services.
And I think Antony as GM of the Firm (in this case Derfence Ministry) taken a right step to prove that todays AF are nothing more than Trade Unions and its leaders who are not elected by unions but nominated by these GMs, whether JJ, Kapoor or new incumbent (VK) all play in the hands of these GMs and their secretary. So one thing is far sure todays AF have to behave like trade unions (without having the power to elect its leader)
And GM has all the power to nominate a person this post who agrees to their dictat as happened in this case (AWADHESH DID NOT AGREED TO MAKE POSTINGS AS PER THE CHOICE OF GM’S SECTERIAT) Where as VK agreed to THE advice and got the prize.
But here again I have question if some one could answer why was Suresh Mehta the nominated union leader awarded?
One important precaution is to not have a Physical address for any whistleblower department — the department must be accessible only via email/phone. And people from this department must meet the whistleblowers at random locations that they decide for each meeting. Corrupt people can get to be wealthy enough to hire private detectives and stake out a building if it had a large, friendly sign outside such as “Whistleblowers take the door to the right”. Officers of this department should be in civilian uniforms (else someone might start to make a living off the information of where all the officers are going) and carry a specific badge of authority that must be on all the whistleblower notices, so that it is recognized by the public at large.
Samy, you are right. Sorry for spamming. Mr. Pragmatic, please delete any and all irrelevant posts. Thank you.
Pragmatic,
while the topic is Civil – Mil relations, ur article does not even talk about it.
it is quite pleasant to see all the happenings around (if u remember i had warned about the degradation much earlier). in a few years, courtesy u and others we will have a special police force called the INDIAN ARMY, which will not be different in ethos to the police or the CRPF or the BSF.
In fact in longer term, the way Maharashtra is going, we may have the divided india with their own spl police forces.
why do u think the judiciary was the most respected and trusted arm of the govt? courtesy the contempt of court law. today, with every tom D and harry writing on court orders and privileges of the judges, this institution is also dying down.
in a similar manner, the Indian Army, till it was respected by the Nation, delivered. today, when every T, D & H feels he has the knowhow and right to criticise the Armed Forces, he gets an armed forces which befit him.
CIVIL MIL Relations
Civil mil relations should be analysed in the light of tasks of respective arms. civil interference should be limited to making policies (which are never made, no one knows how to react when chinese intrude into own territory). the implementation should be left to the military. military should decide what it wants, and the civil should find ways of how to get it. moment the civil arm starts interfering in the internal functioning of the military arm, it transfers some of its values to it, and the result is what has happened. (though i am still not convinced it is a scam, i feel it more of an internal tussle in the Army. i am sure u must have heard of the Hanuman Joke, Who was Hanuman a hindu, muslim or a sikh? WB govts land, was sold by A to B, and who was jumping around, the Indian Army.)
Civil should find a way how to get it….
imagine the bofors scandal. best gun choosen, but not taken because of corruption charges. who suffered more? we!. again now some singapore gun choosen, again dropped due to corruption charges, who suffers ? Army!.
we should have an understanding, as to what do we want? if we want the gun, go ahead. for the corruption, punish those involved, don’t punish the army by not taking the gun. modify rules to suit own requirements, not modify own reqmts to rules. remember the rules are for the organisation, not the other way around (an organisation does not exist for rules).
I dread the future of this nation. This society is such a gutter. A day is not far when the fighting soldier will beging to question himself’ who am I getting killed for??’ And why the hell should I die. I find a fundamental insincerity in the non boot wearing brothers in understanding the psyche and problem of the fighting man. The society is already devided between the boot wearers and those who do not ever need to put on the boots. The views of these two classes never seem to meet. No one has ever given reasons as to why the soldiers need to be degraded in comparison to all and sundry after each war. Actually this act is treason ! But the society thinks the soldiers should just lump it. It is not being lumped and is a permanent scar on soldier’s psyche for which this idiotic society of penpushers and shopkeepers will pay a heavy price
There can be no discussion on civil and military relation in India because all section of society want to exploit the soldier in all ways possible not knowing that they are digging their own grave
Actually this is a slave society which does not deserve to be free and it WILL lose its freedom one day.
With so much of acrimony and intellectual dishonesty one just does not fell like joining the real debate’
@Kartik!! You have become so repititive with your misuse of resource theory from CO upward. Do try and come out with something new. Why dont you join the forces to do the reform that you want. Or let your son join it. You will be doing a greater service than repeating the same story now for almost one year.
@ASHOK AND YASH
Sir
Both of you have been harping upon the holy cow thing of army do you know why do you want to make it a holy cow becasue it helps the COLs and GENs to misuse the power they have.
As it is at unit level the COs are misusing the power of summery court martial to suppress any body who open up against their misuse of resources.
and the same COLs when become Gens they want the army to remain a holy cow.
sorry sir but you peoples keep fighting for officers only you never think of jawan else after getting pb4 for lt col no one open his mouth the 70 percent pension of PBOR
and i am not repetitive mister it is you people who talks as if army officers are only working for this country.
I wish some body like mulayam singh or mayawati becomes Defence minister who can understand the problems of jawans also
Kartik!! You are right on most counts. Yes there are problems and it is getting worse. There are people who speak for the lower ranks and there are people who misuse power. Summary power for the CO were thought to be useful for a purpose and these have been passed by the parliament. If the parliament ie people feel othewise then let these powers be withdrawn or curtailed. The problem is as I have been saying that there is virtually nil participation in the forces by the classes who make rules and decide things. These people and their progeny should join the forces for a balanced socio economic mix in the manning patterns. If a prime minister or a cabinet secretary or a supreme court judge or a media baron has a son who is in an infantry battalion battling it out in Siachin or getting killed in an operation in the valley it will have a dramatic effect toward more balanced and a well rounded approach towards matters of defence
But can we see this happening??/ So we will continue to have widely divergent views on such issues.
However your anguish is well shared. But what if things do not improve. What can we do beside pour our angst in the blogs. Can we promise some ground action?? The real test of concern is that. No??
And will there be a day when Rahul Gandhi or a Scindia or a Deora or a Pilot will lead the infantry assault and win a PVC ; we pray not posthousmously as it generally happens. Or will we have body bags arriving at the doors of rich and famous wrapped in tricolor. If these classes begin to recoganise this as an honor; India lives ; otherwise it dies. There are no two ways about it. You cannot buy volour and martyredom. No one can be fooled in this. If you want to curse the forces; keep doing it to your hearts content; nothing is going to change; blue ribbon or yellow ribbon.
All section of society ‘have’ to pick up the gauntlet ror this Bharat is a no go case where each section of society, is trying to fool the other.
So the Netas, Babus , Actors the Paperwalas the Tv wallas ; stop fooling around. Get ready to put your shoulder to the wheel.
@ Ashok
“I dread the future of this nation. This society is such a gutter.”
there are enough wise people to take care of future of this country and society !! They are running this country without any contribution from you for last sixty years !! So Have a large and relax in the realization that retired people like you don’t have to carry any burden .
Indian Society is not but your mind may be a gutter !!
“Actually this is a slave society which does not deserve to be free ”
by the way !! who has given you judge’s seat to decide whether it is a slave society whether it deserve to be free or not ?? did you made any contribution/ sacrifices for the Indian freedom movement ! If not then better keep quite.
BlackDog!! How do you presume about contributions ; and what are you contributing. And you call this running the country well for last sixty years?? You must be joking or you must be mad or maybe you are one of the people who is running this country to seed.
Who has given me the judge’s seat to judge? ME. You think I am dumb like you without a mind and opinion?? And whose permission is required to judge that this society is a gutter. Yours?? You want me to give you proof of it?? Dont you look around you? Seems you live with your eyes wide shut. Do open your eyes and be sesitive to what is happening around you. See in quantitative and qualitative terms where India is today and where it should have been . I have no time and inclination to start teaching you what is grossly wrong with our society. Worms in gutter are always happy and comfortable.
As long as local civil military relations do not do the Sri lanka, Pakistan, Burma models it is ok. All of the last 10 Army Chiefs ( 8 unusually tall men and two unusually short – as appears in a formal group photo ) have been correct etc. Another photo in a Delhi Cantt studio shows a number of grim and glum looking Generals except one smiling broadly – guess who – VKS.
@MV Joshi
“Be that as it may. Is the Def Min any kind of a commander of the Armed Forces? Does the Def Min possess the constitutional authority to directly countermand that of the COAS in this regard or will it be within the domain of the President? ”
Sir, of course Yes. The Central Govt, that is the Defence Ministry, has all the power to even directly order a Court Martial. The Constitution of India would be too superior a book for the same, see Section 109 of our own Army Act.
The Army, or for that matter any institution, has to live with the inherent systems of checks and balances. No authority can be granted uninhibited powers, whether it’s the Army or the Govt. And this I say without expressing anything on the merits of the issue at hand.
@ Ashok
Any fool can have an opinion and any fool can give himself a judge chair to pronounce — ” (a) Actually this (Indian Society) is a slave society which does not deserve to be free , (b)This society is such a gutter.”
If this society is a gutter , Why you are choosing to continue to live in this gutter called india (by you) . You have abused indian society and each indian citizen in this forum. readers of this forum will give a befitting reply to your thoughtless utterance
jis thali me khate ho usi main ched karte ho- !! India and indian society will be better without ungrateful people like you .
Black Dog!! Any one who does not critisize doesnt become more loyal than the person who bitterly criticizes the society. What more depth you want to society to sink to before it could be compared to the “gutter” When people have no faith in the ruling class ; when the higher judiciary itself proclaims that is members are corrupt; when it takes 19 years to sentence a molestor of a young girl to a laughable light sentence; when after sixty years of independece India is at the low end of the human index spectrum and at the upper end of the corruption spectrum; when India leads the world in having the largest pile of illegal wealth stashed in swiss banks; when the PM himself says that only 15 paise of the govt money reaches the people ———- . Dear Black Dog it has no end. And you are annoyed that I am calling this society a gutter. And you talk of me insulting this society??/ who can have suitable words to properly insult this society. Yes I am a part of this society and I have tried to do my best. I am born here and have struggled. So why are you annoyed. And why do you get angry and resort to abuse?? By you calling me a fool I do not become one.
BlackDog!!Sorry we were on the civil military relations. It is always a touchy issue and people get strayed. Views are so divergent. Actually I always wonder as to why there is such a great chasm in the perception of these two classes; why cant the twain meet. I feel the reason is that these have actually become two twain. These have actually become two classes in society . Do you ever find a family in which you have one son a babu and another a soldier. I have not found such a family. So the perceptions differ. But in today’s world all must understant that no one can fool another. So the predominant element which must be visible in this interaction is SINCERETY. But this is not the case and people want to hoodwink which may have been possible a decade back; not now
And a point about being ungrateful. I am grateful to this land ; that is why I have risked this life for this land so many times. What concerns me and nauseate me is the stink which rises from this ‘gutter’. And what concerns me is that so many worms wallow comfortably in this muck and stink and sneer at someone who calls a spade a spade; a gutter a gutter. So what should I call India ?? Eden??
Seeing your reaction I suspect that you belong to the class that has brought this nation to this sorry pass. Keep it up
@ Ashok
“Do you ever find a family in which you have one son a babu and another a soldier. I have not found such a family. ”
Your statement makes me laugh. Hope you are not praying everyday for your children to choose employment in Armed forces only.
“Actually I always wonder as to why there is such a great chasm in the perception of these two classes…”
The chasm exist only in your mind because of you are so much away from civil society and your poor understanding about the functioning of democratic society, constitution, fundamental rights, laws of the land and human rights.
“I am grateful to this land … .”
Your statements state otherwise- as per your statements the Indian society is a gutter and more than one billion Indians (excluding people like you) are worms in that gutter and India doesn’t deserve to be free . If you feel India is a gutter, better don’t smell the nauseating stink of this gutter day in and day out, go and settle in a country of your choice, which is not a gutter like india.
“Seeing your reaction I suspect that you belong to the class that has brought this nation to this sorry pass. Keep it up.”
Thanks for your esteemed comments !! Let me have another large and laugh heartily.
[...] harping into the arcane legal aspects of the debate over what happened in Sukna land case with the Indian army should focus on just one word in the Petraeus’ statement: [...]
Blackdog!! How have you made up your mind on that I do not understand democracy , constitution or fundamental rights. We had no mention of these; how have you jumped to this conclusion??/
And the chasm exist in so many minds; I am surprising that you have no idea about it. If the chasm is not there then what are we discussing??
Try and be less rude and give argumennts to counter what I am saying. You did not refute my argument about the sorry state of the society; just went on to abuse me; shows your class and upbriging.
It is getting personal now. We can come on the email if you want and spare the blog
Believing in democracy; how can you fight for something when you do not believe in it.
You presume lots of things about me. Not correct.
And you do not seem to take hints and take oblique comments too seriously and laugh too much. All fools laugh without reason or some do it to hide their ability to give a proper argument
FOOD FOR THOUGHT:
(a) The value system of the society is bound to be reflected in the armed forces, especially large ones like ours since it is impossible to isolate the forces from a society plagued by internal security issues.
(b) The really bright and capable young Indians with the right kind of qualities/attributes for the Profession of Arms simply do not view the armed forces as a career option because the profession neither offers the opportunity of genuine work in the field nor the “quality of life” and “recognition” in society(88% of armed forces officers were found in the “lowest acceptable grade/JBA level in their SSBs). Hence,the value system of the officers in the armed forces, including the top echelons,reflects that of an average Indian(self-centered,opportunist,recognition seeking) rather than that of a selfless,conscientious,capable Indian.
(c) Unless the above is remedied, genuine professionalism will remain beyond the reach of the armed forces and petty civil-military issues will continue to plague the system.
@Vineet:
What is the source of that 88% data in paragraph (b)? Any links or references possible. Thanks.
@ Pragmatic
Extract from pg no.222 and 223 of the book–INDIA AND ITS ARMY AFTER INDEPENDENCE, authored by Dr STEPHEN PETER ROSEN.