For love of the army

Ex-Major Guneet Chaudhary, who filed the RTI application about AWWA activities, explains his stance.

The flame of one candle can light thousand of others. ~Lord Mahavira

Indian Army’s reluctance to answer queries under the RTI about the Army Wives Welfare Association (AWWA) has been making headlines. Some media reports suggest that the current army chief’s wife has been summoned by the Chief Information Commissioner to clarify matters. Guneet Chuadhary, who retired as a Major from the Armoured Corps, left a comment at the blog to explain his position on the issue.

There is so much confusion about my identity, the reason for filing the application against AWWA under RTI Act 2005. I thought I must apprise all with the facts.

I am the person who had initiated the application for the information regarding the functioning of AWWA. I am an Ex Army Armoured Corp Officer and at present the Advocate of Supreme Court of India and the Senior partner of JURISCONSULTUS, Law Firm with 22 lawyers on roll.

I have got a great respect for INDIAN ARMY and belongs to ARMY FAMILY. My association with the army can be ascertained from the fact that so for around fifty students (dependents of Army Personnel) form Army Law School, Chandigarh, have done their LLB internship with my law firm in the last three years. Further, three of them have been given regular employment in my law firm. I have handled various legal matters of Army Personnel (including Officers, JCOs and ranks) without charging any professional fees from them.

I have not alleged any thing against the functioning of AWWA. My application is only for seeking the information about the source of funding and functioning of the AWWA.

Public Information Officer of Indian Army says that ,”AWWA IS A NGO SO IT DOES NOT COMES UNDER THE RTI ACT”. IT IS NOT FINANCED BY THE ARMY.

The Appellate authority says that , “IT IS AN NGO BUT NOT SUBSTANTIALLY FINANCED BY THE ARMY”.

The questions is , “Who finances it?”.

Second major question is, “UNDER WHICH AUTHORITY SERVING ARMY PERSONNEL ARE SERVING AWWA.

THE QUESTION IS , IF AWWA IS PART OF INDIAN ARMY THEN ARMY SHOULD PROVIDE THE INFORMATION, IF AWWA IS NOT PART OF THE INDIAN ARMY THEN AWWA SHOULD PROVIDE THE INFORMATION ABOUTS ITS FUNDING. The answer has to be straight, either it is part of Indian Army or not, not a vague answer which was given, to quote” AWWA IS NOT PART OF AN INDIAN ARMY BUT IT IS DEEMED TO BE PART OF AN INDIAN ARMY.

Finally, why a trained soldier be forced to sell Vegetable in AWWA shop, why a trained solider be forced to run the STD booth for AWWA, Why a regular officer is made incharge( OIC) of AWWA schools? Why can’t these jobs be given to disabled exservicemen, war widows and retired handicapped personnel with full wages perks and benefits.

Next time visit AWWA shopping Centre, find out from the Civilian AWWA employee about his salary and any benefits. You will be shocked my friend.
Time is to revamp the structure of AWWA.

Most welcome to send emails to me.

The questions that Guneet has raised are valid questions. Running away from these uncomfortable queries does no good to the Indian Army. This blogger does not know the ex-Major, but believes that it is his love for the organisation and in seeking its betterment that Guneet is forced to raise these enquiries.

Indian army, like all organisations, is a living organism; it has to continue to shed its skin unless this nation chooses to let it die by deifying it. There are certain points in the history of any organisation when it has to change dramatically to rise to the next level of performance or maintain its old level of performance in a dramatically altered environment. Miss those moments – and the organisation starts to decline. Has this nation already allowed the moment to reform and restructure the Indian Army slip away?

The good things take care of themselves. We want to find all the negatives. ~Wayne Huizenga

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240 Responses to For love of the army

  1. Maverick January 3, 2009 at 12:44 am #

    the funding of awwa, comes from the small monthly voluntary contributions of all serving personnel. god forbid, if something happens to us on the borders or at sea, then awwa atleast tries to take care of the family.
    In addition, awwa, afwwa, nwwa are also involved in various charitable and social causes which are beneficial for a healthy society at large.
    the token contribution is small and totally voluntary, but its akin to CSR(Corporate Social Responsibility)
    Maverick

  2. Puneet January 3, 2009 at 5:52 am #

    The questions raised by Guneet are very valid and am sure will find an echo in the Army. The need of the hour is greater transparency and inclusiveness and not combativeness. It is much in the interest of the nation that the Armed Forces open up but it is also in the nations interest that the govt opens up and includes the Armed Forces as an integral part of it – to be included in the decision making process.

  3. Pragmatic January 3, 2009 at 12:38 pm #

    @Maverick:

    Even the army is not saying what you are trying to say. Check this link.

    AWWA got the initial corpus from the Ministry of Defence and is funded from different heads like canteen profits and various grants of the Ministry of Defence earmarked for the welfare of defence personnel.

  4. ANSHUJ January 3, 2009 at 2:40 pm #

    God save the Armed Forces from people like Guneet,who spit in the same plate from where he once used to eat.
    Its a cheap popularity stunt to gain attention.
    Unethical and deplorable behaviour.

  5. kkmlhotra January 3, 2009 at 5:30 pm #

    “Hain aur bhi kaiee gham zamane mein mohabbat ke siva nijat jin se ik lamaha pa nahin sakta”–while vakil sahibs love for fauj &zeal to save a poor soldier the indignity along with financial propreity in raising petty sums cannot be disputed a non issue is being over flogged much as the use of sahayaks in thearmy is scandalising so many.rest assured the intitutions like AWWA have different &ad hoc modus operandi depending upon location size&constituent community of troops none of which impedes op efficiency but promotes healthy social iteraction in keeping isolted members of units in far lung areas busy in healthy activityleading to espirit de corp.we should let this pass now that the point has been made.

  6. depps January 3, 2009 at 9:08 pm #

    @ Guneet

    It seems lawyer sahab does not understand the concept of fiduciary responsibility towards a former employer or it may be that he is trying to promote his own lawyer firm to get business from people in the service.

    I do not believe that having served, he does not know from where funds come from or what work AWWA does or how AWWA works. It is a crude attempt to put army on back foot. However having said that, even people try to make AWWA sound like they are misusing funds and making ppl feel guilty.
    I have also served. And I have worked in different countries and cultures. And I also had lots of misgivings about these activities while in service. And I can say with guarantee that AWWA is a good organisation, very much required and majority of them are providing yeoman service.
    Now this concept of what a civilian is getting and how we all should be surprised at this anonymous civilian employees emoluments is just hog wash and Mr Guneet (along with his so called army family) should be asked to take a jump.

    Mr Guneet, if you were so worried about AWWA, please do let all of us know if at any point in your service did you raise these issues, or is it that all these points came to you only after you retired.

  7. tej January 4, 2009 at 12:03 pm #

    the indian army has bogged down so much in the ‘ yes sir ‘ syndrome that any questions raised are taken as defiance.we must learn to identify our shortcomings and improve them rather then hide behind staff replies,which at times are doubtful in nature.the issues raised are genuine and need to be addressed.the awwa can be a very strong tool for redressal of day to day grievences and welfare of troops.let us not question the author’s loyalty / love for the org but his querries be answered by the army hq.dissent should be taken as healthy criticism and encouraged.let someone be the devil’s advocate, even if it is the advocate himself.

  8. PS January 4, 2009 at 5:49 pm #

    The right to information in the public domain is fine.
    The more clarity the better.
    No objection, your Honour, anytime.

  9. Yash January 4, 2009 at 7:05 pm #

    TEJ,

    it is not defiance, but the fear of this organisation coming under the preview of the government that is worrying the AWWA and the army. once that happens a red tape will have to be crossed to do any good AWWA. questions like who authorised the payment to the widow, what proof was collected that the soldier has actually dies etc will have to be documented. most of these ppl raising such issues are either disgruntled ex-servicemen, or civilian government employees, who want to just enjoy the fun. none of them will ever contribute even a days wage for the AWWA or for any noble cause, but will question every move made in the name of RTI.

    i do not know why AWWA should answer when it not funded by any government fund, but private funds of the army (welfare funds raised by units) and also voluntary contribution.

    i do not know why awwa has not gone to court till now (may be to prevent lawers like guneet to earn money ment for other noble purposes)

    None of u have appreciated that all these ppl (in AWWA) are working for free (which is unheard of). so what exactly is the doubt??

  10. Pragmatic January 4, 2009 at 7:31 pm #

    @Yash #9:

    i do not know why AWWA should answer when it not funded by any government fund, but private funds of the army (welfare funds raised by units) and also voluntary contribution.

    Even the army is not saying what you are trying to say. You are again grossly off the mark. Check this link.

    AWWA got the initial corpus from the Ministry of Defence and is funded from different heads like canteen profits and various grants of the Ministry of Defence earmarked for the welfare of defence personnel.

  11. Guneet Chaudhary January 4, 2009 at 7:42 pm #

    Hi Tej Depps and Ansuj,

    Thanks for the comments. But I have not raised any allegations against AWWA. It is no doubt, doing a yeo man service but which law permits AWWA to hide every thing under a cover. Why can not AWWA be transparent in its functioning? India is fortunate to have Right to information Act in 2005. Before the passing of this act no department of Government was suppose to provide the information.

    Rest all I will not address, because it is just an emotinal outburst. You are welcome to visit the CIC office and see who is right and who is wrong on Jan 15. 2009.
    Kind regards,

  12. devendra January 4, 2009 at 7:53 pm #

    Awwa is doing good work but it is also a fact that GOvt money in the form of man&material which sould not be used is being used.Even some time units are forced to buy certain item compulsory

  13. Yash January 4, 2009 at 7:55 pm #

    prag, u are not really aware of things.

    the article is speculative. awwa does not provide any facilities to the president awwa. not even a dedicated vehicle (it does not own any). it does not pay any salary to the president awwa or any other member (except if any soldiers wives are employed.). president awwa travels only ( i repeat) only when accompanied by the husband. she cannot travel in the service aircraft alone for awwa task. so when her husband goes for a visit to s station she can accompany him to meet and check and advise the awwa module working there.

    since none of the members are paid any salary, it cannot be termed as a public enterprise. the corpus is maintained as a corpus and rather enhanced. it is only the interest which is being used. if u write to awwa to tell u the name and addresses of widows given grant they would easily be able to give it. rather u need not ask for it. just visit any widow (again i repeat any widow) and ask her how much grant was given to her. u will not find a single widow who has not got the grant. if u can find one (in the recent years when the grant was institutionalised ) the army would be greatful to u for helping them.

    if u could specify the motive of ur question (u feel corruption in awwa funds by the presidents? or misuse of the funds?), i am sure they would easily answer ur question.

    i am repeating again, u r questioning an organisation which is working without any monetary incentive (no salary or facilities can be given by awwa to a serving officers family, except that the president awwa can travel WITH HER HUSBAND ONLY when visiting stations). i think even for a naive person, it would be enough. there are many instances of wives having to leave their jobs once they became president awwa (isn’t that a sacrifice even to the most thick headed person?)

  14. Yash January 4, 2009 at 7:59 pm #

    Guneet since u have accepted u are not raising any allegations, why do u want to know? is it for ur general knowledge??

  15. Pragmatic January 4, 2009 at 8:09 pm #

    @Yash #13:

    So what about your argument of no public funds for the army now. Secondly, the army has accepted that official stuff (including even service aircrafts & helicopters) have been used by *Presidents* AWWA, while travelling alone. Which AWWA module is in Dras or Kupwara for President AWWA to visit in a service aircraft and helicopter?

    If an organisation has to deliver, it has to be run professionally. Not a charity from wives of officers, who form their own parallel hierarchy. The government resources used to bring the costs down, if included in these low-cost ventures, would tell you the real costs of these ventures. And please look around for an audited account for AWWA even at national level. You’ll be surprised.

    That shall be enough for now. Have patience and just wait for 15th, when the RTI appeal by Guneet will be heard by the CIC at Delhi.

  16. depps January 4, 2009 at 10:49 pm #

    @ Mr Guneet and Prags,

    I can try to understand the issue of AWWA as you are projecting, but it sure beats my intellect. Mr Guneet is nowhere raising issues of low cost ventures, civil empl, ex service man or AWWA pres any where. It seems you all are trying to imply the above issues from some query regarding source of funding.e
    Having said this, now the issue of this particular query and why ? My basic query is that Mr Guneet himself is an ESM, he knows how and why AWWA is done. As you would know, everything can not be in B & W of law. This institution has some aims, objectives which are broadly in line with army’s own philosophy and duties. It can not have a fixed issues since lady wife (head as well as all other heads of different comd, corps, div, etc) changes every 2 years and every one brings her own contribution depending on experience.
    These issues of use of govt money, etc could be used to effect a change provided Mr Guneet would have done it while in service. Just because he is retired and thinks that he no longer owns any responsibility to his former empl, he can raise these issues. Please let me know to which regiment Mr Guneet belonged so that I can also raise RTI queries about his discharge of duties. Will that be acceptable.

    We all accept that ppl are doing their work to the best of their abilities. If u are aware of some hanky panky, by all means bring it to notice. If there are some suggestions, by all means write to pres awwa.

    But trying to sound as if who is right or wrong (by retired ppl) without doing any positive contribution is well not appreciated.
    It very well goes against all norms of conduct. I would advise discretion to Mr Guneet. Army is not there for your flogging…

  17. voyager January 5, 2009 at 12:54 am #

    Been there and done that.

    Let’s face it – AWWA in its present avatar is a pain and all middle/junior rung officer knows it in their heart. It is not corrupt per se, but its wasteful on combat resources and has begun to proliferate into becoming a parallel, demi-official heirarchy.

    Its time for the senior officers’ wives to find better avenues then this for their accumulated “experience” and apparent “concern”…. and I must say “Well done Guneet” to conclude!

  18. PS January 5, 2009 at 10:06 am #

    @pragmatic

    “…parallel hierarchy…”

    1. exactly the point
    as if one pecking order was not enough in the coop

    2. it’s afghan tribal law again – after a lull in the battle,
    the ladies traditionally take over and skin the pow
    or non conformer

    3. interesting that the poultry comes home to roost on Criappa day

  19. Guneet Chaudhary January 5, 2009 at 12:52 pm #

    It is getting interesting as I am getting a good feed back. When I started this in June 2006, I had decided that I must tkae it to a logical end. Please do not move in circles, Question is very simple.
    IS AWWA PART OF AN INDIAN ARMY OR NOT?

    Let us wait for CIC orders on Jan 15.

  20. drsubodhkhare January 5, 2009 at 1:05 pm #

    @ depps,
    Just because I had put up a court case in Bombay High Court for my release All my claims were checked at CDA.My alcohol comsumption was checked i the officers messes.(SInce I dont drink at all Nothing was found).
    All types of intimidation was done to me by Delhi.Obviously if I am answerable as a service officer why not a quasi service organisation like WWA’s.
    It is a poor response on your part to try and ask about Maj guneet’s regiment and discharge of duties etc.
    Why cant army come clean on things? I had raised a no of queries about AWWA activities while in service and got a similar response from high officers (Holier than thou and more loyal than king).
    I had put up two conflicting letters on affidavit in Bombay High Court (Letters from army HQ) while they were pleading that there is shortage of officers for opposing my release.
    One stated that because we have surplus officers we cant give specialist allownce to officers and the other while rejecting my resignation they stated we have shortage.So when the Hon.Judges asked to explain the position the defence secretary( who was the respondent) was sweating to answer whether they had shortage or surplus.
    Please dont consider everything sacrosanct unless you positively know about it.My case in High court and Supreme court has classic examples of perjury(Wilful lying on oath).Let us get out of the sacred cow state and make our army more professional.That will be a great service to the nation.
    (By the way I dare you about my charter of duties under RTI in AMC My personal no is MR 5738 T).
    @ Yash it is not because of queries like this but the actions done under the garb of restricted access and secrecy the army lands in such situation.When My statutory complaint was not answered for 13 months the Hon. Supreme court asked the defence secretary as to why such simple procedures (of answering the statutory complaint within six months) are not followed he had no face.
    A special leave petition has to be put up within 90 days in Supreme court after leave to appeal is rejected by High court.However in my case it was put up after 07 months (215 days).The delay was condoned because of armed forces India (the sacred cow).
    Imagine if supreme court takes grim view of these type of lapses and asks govt to constitute a commitee be sure it wil be headed by Babus and then you had it.
    I still feel we need to wake up and clean our house first.
    If the RTI application finds a substantial proof of misappropriation or misconduct and needs to be converted to a PIL in Supreme court I shall be one of the first to support it.No holds barred.
    I could not care less what people talk.I have been termed traitor just because I resigned.When the same was asked about other officers who manage to leave bribing the DGAFMS,they had no answer.
    Let us be more truthful and professional and stop this custodian like attitude.
    Regards
    Subodh

  21. Guneet Chaudhary January 5, 2009 at 2:51 pm #

    Dr. Subodh,

    Once this order is passed by CIC. It will be a begining and PIL will be filed for the misappropriation/embezzlement depending upon the disclosures.

    We should shed the Colonial past and call spade a spade.

    For your information, I have stated on record in the CIC court, that I do not want to argue and will call five officers ( who represent AWWA in the CIC Court) one by one and CIC will come to know the status of AWWA as every one has a different version of AWWA.

    AT PRESENT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ARMY AND AWWA , is more like saying that, “WE ARE INDIANS BUT NOT BHARTIYAS”.

    VIEL HAS TO BE LIFTED AND EARLIER THE BETTER. LET EVERY ONE KNOWS THE FACTS AND FIGURES.

    GUNEET

  22. Ravi January 5, 2009 at 3:57 pm #

    I was always of the opinion that all AWWA activities should be run by the members ie the Army Wives…and not the husbands.I thinks that logical…but then I always see things differently.

  23. Sudeep January 5, 2009 at 5:41 pm #

    Hat’s off to Guneet!

    Trust me all junior and middle level officers are praying like hell for the CIC orders on 15 Jan. Hope AWWA shuts shop!!

    There is no voluntary contribution rather it is forced. There are written orders in each formation that certain percentage of CSD profits will compulsorily be deposited with AWWA.

    No one would mind contribution if the money and effort is gainfully utilized. At unit and lower formations levels at least, AWWA is nothing more than organizing farewells and welcomes shows for formation commanders. Officers are sick of it and the families of jawans curse the officers for forcing AWWA activities on them.

    All AWWA outlets are manned by serving jawans. Where do they come from? Who performs their duties in lieu? Today AWWA is more important (and sensitive) than any other activity for it is headed by wives of formation commanders.

    AWWA is being run in Govt buildings, maintained by MES. Expenditures are from public funds (of course the bills are suitably morphed to avoid audit objections). Vehicles are freely used. Try and miss out on organizing or attending AWWA monthly meet – you will without any doubt get hauled up.

    Why should an officer or a jawan involve in non-Govt job which does not have any formal Govt sanction. Why should a jawan be selling vegetables? Go to Gopinath Bazar (Delhi Cantt), in front of HDFC ATM you will find a person selling flowers on the road side to passing civilians!! He is a serving soldier. Does he have a choice? And frankly what I do for AWWA, do I have a choice?

    Believe me there are many RTIs on the way. We have to force change if it does not come by on its own. If we love this organization, it is our duty to do our bit.

  24. Neha January 5, 2009 at 5:57 pm #

    The best welfare for Army Jawans Wives is to leave them alone. We have to get involved in funny so called ‘welfare’ activities like organising dances, skits etc when we don’t even have enough time to look after our small kids. The problem in the army is that officers are sooo ‘positive!!’ that they always say ‘YES SIR!’ The only time they express their actual views and distress is either among their peer groups or at home. I have no doubt that bubble shall burst!! and burst it shall soon!!

  25. Whistle Blower January 6, 2009 at 2:16 am #

    Thank God. A Point which was nudging in my mind for all these years has come for discussion. Now I can vent my opinion open to all.

    I want to put a few facts to those who feel that AWWA and AFWWA are doing yeoman service.

    The wives of the C-in-Cs and Chief can accompany their husband whenever their travel is required for welfare related activities……….
    says the document authorising their air travel along with their husbands.

    And you know what sort of welfare activities they are involved in those airtravels. I will give you an example

    Most of the C-in-Cs of the IAF travels every year to Carnicobar and from there to Campbell bay and make a overnight halt at campbell bay. Their spouses accompanies them to oversea the welfare related activities (!) of officer and their families.

    But unfortunately there is no airforce unit there at campbell bay and no officer posted there leave alone the family. Now what sort of welfare activities she performs there at campbell bay only god knows.

    But after a few days I could see the photos of the welfare related activites(!)(that is the reason for her visit to cb bay as per records) in the station library and I could see the memsahib sitting pretty well on the autralian turtle and having fun.

    So many questions arised in my mind by then. But I know the protagonist of AFWWA/AWWA may say that was an odd incident.

    Now let me tell the second one

    The C-in-C of one of the command has flown all the way to bangalore and from there to the airfield of a private company at Hosur accompanied by his wife. Now I will be happy to know if some of the protagonist can explain me what welfare activity she can perform (for which she has flown around 3000 KM) at the private airfield where not a single officer, airman or their families resides.

    The protagonist may say that was another odd incident. Well let me tell one more.

    Much water has flown about the izaat of the lt cols after this pay commission. We have fought tooth and nail to restore the previous status saying that more than the pay the izaat of the lt col rank is at stake.

    But one particular day I could see a staff officer (for the memsahib) of a
    lt col rank running to board the aircraft holding a hangar in his hand with a saree hanging on it. Later on I could come to know that he was taking the saris in his hand because the memsahib will get angry if her starched cotton saris gets even a single wrinkle. So the lt col rank officer is taking care of the sari of the memsahib. And we talk about the izat of the lt col rank.

    what I have mentioned is not even the tip of the ice berg and every individual in the defence forces knows what sort of welfare activities these AFWWA’s and AWWAs are undertaking.

    It is nice that atlast one person with a back bone has questioned the thing that deserved to be questioned

  26. Whistle Blower January 6, 2009 at 2:53 am #

    Hats offff to Major Gurmeet.

    My sincere thanks to you as you have started the work of destroying this bad omen. Also I was under the impression that I was one of the minority people in the officers community who does not like the functioning of this organisation. But now I m very happy to see that there are many an officer with similar views.

    I wish you a great sucess in your effort to dismantle this edifice.

    I once again thank you a lot for your effort to fulfilling my dream.

  27. drsubodhkhare January 6, 2009 at 9:05 am #

    @Neha
    AWWA is a voluntary organisation.The senior officer’s wives are voluteers and the junior officers and teh soldiers are detailed to volunteer.
    Those who show resistance are bulldozed.Only a few who are not bothered of their career can only show the resistance.Not that they can reform the system but they are not troubled.
    SInce in medical corps the promotion is time scale your post graduation depends on a PG entrance which you have to compete with officers of all three forces the commanding officers cant do much to force the medical officers.
    This is the reason My wife attended only one AWWA meeting in 7 years.When My boss asked me as to why she does not attend AWWA I told him my wife does not listen to me what can a poor officer like me can do?He had no answer.SInce I could not be pushed around they could do nothing.In AMC you have a commanding officer for at the most 1.5 yrs.after which you or he goes on posting.(I had 19 commandants in 18 yrs of service)
    But an officer/soldier in a regiment/Bn has to stay with the same seniors for years and cant afford to spoil their ACR,thus their wives are coerced to join AWWA.This is usual story.
    Welfare or no welfare the true nature of AWWA funds and its functioning has to be audited.Whatever are the shortcomings have to be corrected and improved .If the organisation has outlived its useful life(BER in army parlance survey it)then shut it.No point trying to say that we are doing so much and so and so welfare.Least we do is to shed this holier than thou and more loyal than king attitude.
    Rest we will land up like Euro 8 compliant drive by wire latest vehicle
    (Bullock cart).It is still functioning!! why discard it
    Thats it.
    Subodh

  28. drsubodhkhare January 6, 2009 at 9:17 am #

    @ Major Guneet,
    I am not a lawyer but a doctor but after fighing a case in court I understand one thing.Army can go to any extent todefend their case.This I have seen when they represented my case in supreme court.All the relavant strictures and remarks of high court were deleted from the case book of high court and it was put on oath in supreme court by a brigadier on 31 july and he retired on same day.I had to put it on affidavit that this is clear case of perjury and wilful deletion/misrepresentation of facts.However the sacred cow status protects them even in SUpreme court.
    I state that even supreme court is not wiling to pass strictures easily against armed forces despite clear and contrary evidence.
    The point I want to make is they can and will go to any extent to misrepresent facts and dont be surprised if you find five (loyal than king) parrots rattling out what has been fed to them in CIC office.I still feel a cross examination of a no. officers will bring out the truth.
    Again I am not a lawyer so neither have the education nor the knowledge of law to even suggest leave alone advice anyone (least a supreme court lawyer).
    With regards
    Subodh

  29. Guneet Chaudhary January 6, 2009 at 11:27 am #

    Dr. Subodh

    Yes, I do agree with you,but in this situation Army authorities are in a fix.
    1. If they say AWWA is part of Indian Army, then they have to give the full information about the functioning of AWWA.
    2. If they say AWWA is not the part of Army and disowns AWWA, then AWWA has to provide us the source of its funding, which will ultimately lead to PIL, CVC enquiry or a CBI Enquiry. The battle will not end here, Sir, I have to take this litigation to a logical end.
    I am happy with both the orders
    CATCH 22 SITUATION.

  30. drsubodhkhare January 6, 2009 at 2:51 pm #

    @ Guneet
    It is called
    BAAP DIKHAO YA TO KRIYAKARMA KARO.
    BRAVO
    Subodh

  31. Prabhu January 6, 2009 at 9:34 pm #

    I too had been there and seen quite some interesting things…

    I think when organisations like AWWA / NWWA / AFWWA were originally found,would have had some philanthropic ideals. But over a period of time, they have indeed become a drain on the services.. in fact, a liability – especially for the men, junior officers and their wives.

    Not to mention married women (to male officers) officers, who too are forced into! (By books, a woman officer is an officer till such time, she retires and need not bother about WWAs. But while a lady (a civilian woman married to male officer) can show dissent (if she wants to), a married women officer cannot, because the President of WWA (what ever level) knows that she works under her husband (and so under armed forces act) and so can twist her tail!

    And by the way.. Who is this President WWAs (what ever level)? we did hear that WWAs are voluntary organizations, isn’t it? If thats the case, then such organizations should have some kind of internal democracy! (After all we live in a democratic country and WWA is no armed force!) What follows then is that the members of such organisations should be democratically elected? Be it the President, Secy or whatever.. But is it the case? No. Not at all!! The Boss’s wife will be the President! The next powerful person’s wife will be Secy and so on. How can that be? The Boss is the boss because of his service, seniority, capability and what all not. But how come his wife? Does she inherit all those qualities just because she is married to him? Is that possible..??

    Why I am asking these questions is that, I have seen less capable women, heading these organizations (just because their husbands were commanding) and made them an extension of their household and power center. And more capable women (wives of jawans and junior officers) are puzzled and lost!

    I have to admit that many Presidents did not even have simple common sense. (After all people go senile with age). They would spend thousand of rupees on Board Meetings, but would spend only a few hundred buck on actual charity work.

    By the way, the WWAs do not hire cars. In fact the staff cars would be at their disposal. The same case is with their air travel.

    Another point to ponder.. ever heard of the President of India’s (not the present) or the PM’s wife heading something or wanting something..?? (She is just someone’s wife.. a lady.. and thats way it should be)

  32. depps January 7, 2009 at 2:22 am #

    This discussion can never end, cause we r in democracy…But I would also like to present an alt perspective.

    My wife was also working, and she used to have two off days in a week. And as per instructions she used to go and take classes on those two days for children and also hold AWWA meet for my company, i.e. when we were in peace. I never found awwa to be obnoxious and i don’t thk it is a charitable organisation.
    I thk my wife did a great job and she never even once complained to me abt it. Do u thk in civvi street anywhere, can you get this kind of opportunity.

    I personally feel all this rti is pure nonsense. And as far as all the complaints abt it go, I can tell u, even if u leave all ppl free also to do whatever they want, still they would have complaints. So these issues of not finding time for kids, etc, etc is pure crap. This is an organisations necessity and a person who is wedded to olive green has to do it and do it well.
    Mr Guneet
    Lastly, if on these issues a CVC or CBI or CAG inquiry would have been possible, then there have been more disgruntled ppl before u and they would have been able to do it by now.

  33. Whistle Blower January 7, 2009 at 11:14 am #

    GREAT OPPORUNITY FOR WOMEN

    YOU CAN CHAIR BOARD MEETINGS
    YOU CAN CAN TAKE DECISIONS FOR WHICH SOMEBODY IS RESPONSIBLE
    AND SOME OTHER WILL EXECUTE
    YOU CAN GIVE INSTRUCTIONS TO PERSONS QUALIFIED MORE THAN YOU
    YOU CAN TRAVEL IN MILITARY AIRCRAFTS AND HELICOPTERS WHEREVER
    YOU WANT
    YOU WILL AVAIL THE FACILITIES OF OFFICAL CAR (OR IS IT UNOFFICIAL)
    WITH GOVERNMENT PAID CHAUFERER
    YOU WILL GET AN ARMY OFFICER OR TWO(WHO IS PAID ATLEAST 50,000
    FROM THE TAX PAYERS MONEY) TO LOOOK AFTER YOUR
    SECRETARIAL/PERSONAL NEEDS
    YOU CAN DO CHARITABLE WORKS WITHOUT SPENDING A PENNY

    ARMY OFFICERS UPTO THE RANK OF MAJ GENL WILL SALUTE YOU ON YOUR
    ARRIVAL WHEREVER YOU GO
    AND MANY MORE THE LIST NEVER ENDS……..

    BUT HOW YOU WILL GET ALL THISSS

    SHOULD YOU POSSESS A DEGREE ————- NOT REQUIRED
    SHOULD YOU UNDER GO ANY RIGOROUS TRAINING—— NOT REQUIRED
    SHOULD YOU STAND IN ANY ELECTIONS AND
    BEG FOR VOTES ———– NOT REQUIRED
    SHOULD YOU STRUGGLE HARD TO GET THE SPECIAL QUALIFICATIONS
    FOR ADMINISTRATION/MANAGEMENT ————— NOT REQUIRED

    IT IS VERY SIMPLE
    JUST GET MARRIED TO ANY OF THE C-IN-C’S OF THE DEFENCE SERVICES

    AND YOU GET THE WHOLE WORLD FOR YOU.

    KUDOS FOR AWWA/NWWA/AFWWA

  34. Guneet Chaudhary January 7, 2009 at 11:29 am #

    Depps,

    Change with the changing times, If you still want to be under the Colonial past, than it is up to you Sir. Time is changing.
    Can you imagine even the Chief Justice of Indian and other Judges of High Courts have also come under the purview of CIC. They have to disclose their assets.( Please read todays paper). Why AWWA should not come under RTI?

    We are one of the biggest democracy and this right to information we have got it after 61 years of independence. Every citizen has got the right to know about the functioning of the Government.

    Change has to come in and no one should think that he is above the law of the land.

    Regards and best wishes for you to adept as per the changing times.

    Guneet

  35. Whistle Blower January 7, 2009 at 1:08 pm #

    Dear depps,

    I am surprised at your sentence that everything cannot be in black and white. Anyway that is your opinion. I would like to answer a few questions you have posed to mr guneet.

    If any association forms its own laws and practice those laws within their members nobody will object.

    But in the case of AWWA there is no written law which says that only the wife of the commander can become the president of the AWWA (whatever be the level) but you practice it (making only the commanders wife as president AWWA).

    Now tell me why should the more qualified wife of a junior officer or wife of a soldire should dance to the tune of the president AWWA or why should not they become president why only wife of a commander.

    If it is the Wives Association then be it, why do u bring the rank structure in the wives association, giving tea for soldierswives in a plastic cup and officers wife in bonchina cups.

    You are practising untouchability and you want the government support to it with public moey.

    You want to satisy the ego of one person with public money, which is not at all acceptable.

    Now tell me why should an officer be deputed exclusively as staff officer to AFWWA president, and accompany her wherever she go and keep her engagements. If it is only wives welfare association then you appoint from the associtaion money and pay him. I know you cant do that because then every member will question that move.

    If you want to provide car then please do that with your association money why you are using government car.

    Now you are appointing manager, salesman, accountanct etc for a pittance of of 300 and 500 rupees. can anybody come for work for that meagre amont nobody will come for work. So you are taking the soldiers from their official employment and employ them in these jobs.

    Now tell me had the government appointed them for doing AWWA sale?
    If they are doing this job who will do their assigned job?

    These AWAA, AFWWA etc are made with one aim i.e. to engage the commanders wife with some office work who otherwise would have been getting bored. Anyway still nobody will complaint about it if it is done within some tolerable limits.

    There are many wives organisations in the civil which misuses the govt machinery but not to the extent as is being done in the defence organisations.

    Also the wives of the junior officers and soldiers are more educated (gone are the days when the soldiers wife were “unpad”). And forcing them to do menial jobs like rangoli, dance for receiving Affwwa president will not go unopposed. And if you want to impose the military hiererachy on them that is not acceptable.

    And the charity and all what you are talking is not even pittance when compared to the public money utilised by these organisations.

    These organisations will just crumble when the support they take from the public money is withdrawn
    And Mr Guneet has rightly asked the source of funding because without funds from govt you cant run the show. And at the same time you cant tell openly that the privileges given are exclusively for the wife of the commander

    Leave alone all things. You just make one thing official i.e. which you are practicing. Tell in black and white that “Only the wive of the Army commander can become the president of the AWWA” and that will be the end of the organisation, rest all will be taken care of by the wives themselves. But these organisations survive only by armtwisting the soldiers and junior officers that is why it is being questioned by the retired soldier.

  36. depps January 7, 2009 at 3:00 pm #

    @ Guneet and whistle blower

    Absolutely agree with you on certain points.

    Firstly, I am not in colonial past. I do work presently with the most advanced technologies. And by no stretch of imagination, I thk I am living in the past.

    Point is the issue of full financial disclosure. I can agree that if you want, the awwa will have to give it. But then what are we going to do with it. Right now it seems like there is lot of negative thoughts abt AWWA as would be apparent to u frm comments. So excercise discretion about what u want to do.
    These organisations have been built by lot of ppl who I believe did at their time what was best. And as some 1 said these organisation survive only based on the interest (voluntary or otherwise) of its members. If these uninformed or misinformed commentators start such campaign, then it would be very easy to shut these organisations.
    As for whistleblowers contention about qualification, etc. Sir, AWWA etc run on purely adhoc arrangements depending on interest of the senior officer as well as his wife. I have seen AWWA meets twice in a week arrangement and also once in 3 months type arrangement also. So the question of qualification, etc does not arise.
    Just 1 incident of many which I faced. Due to this AWWA meet, I got to know (which I could have never known in normal circumstances) that one of my NCO was getting his wife’s abortion done because of girl child. Now this issue comes within my perview (atleast counselling or presenting some alternate thoughts to this guy).

  37. Vigilanti January 7, 2009 at 4:03 pm #

    The claim by the Western Command that AWWA is not funded in any many manner by Western Command/ Army is summarily proven wrong if one only looks at the AWWA website. The website is full of pictures with serving officers and troops involved in AWWA activities. If one looks at the Western Command page, one can see any Army truck being used for a ‘AWWA mobile library”!!!
    http://awwa-india.org/west_welfare_projects.aspx
    Shocking..

  38. Chow January 7, 2009 at 5:24 pm #

    Misplaced Loyalties

    Let’s play multiple choice!!

    If there is a conflicting decision to be taken whose interest will come first?

    (a) Country
    (b) Indian Army
    (c) My Paltan
    (d) My Company

    (e) Self
    (f) Boss

    Ideally, the decision should not be conflicting, but in today’s army such conflicts have become routine. We don’t see them because it is our teaching to obey orders and not to analyze decisions. Today a boss at every level has become a law onto himself with absolute disregard to Govt Rules. By blind obedience, we often end up placing the boss over our nation.

    The path shown by Chetwode is a difficult one which only the bravest of the brave can follow.

    Our obsession with showcasing our false sense of izzat has blinded us from viewing things from the correct perspective.

    Regardless of how good or bad AWWA is performing since it does not have Govt sanction it is illegal. It should be thus stopped immediately. The only moral way out is that Army should own up that it has gone wrong and seek it’s regularization by obtaining Govt sanction to run it with the help of professionals with voluntary participation and funding.

  39. aam adami January 7, 2009 at 10:05 pm #

    @ Guneet Chaudhary

    Guneetji, awwa to bahut chota sa issue hai! fauj main bahut se kast hain! Kya aap sare samasyoon ko bhi RTI ke scope mein layiange? Is blog mein hi aap ko bahut sare kast mil jayiange!

    Khuda Hafiz!

  40. amit January 7, 2009 at 11:08 pm #

    Mr Chow.. u coudn’t have been more right about the issue. i think u have nailed it here.
    mr guneet has, by asking the pertinent questions has done more welfare to the soldier and his family then what awwa has or will ever do.even neglecting the officers who take orders from these ladies and are rendered as clerks and pa’s of the president wife, pro awwa’ites dont have a remote idea about how servile it is to bow ,dance and throw fake smiles to the president awwa just because she is married to sum super senior her husband.i personally know a well qualified lecturer whose husband was blackmailed, browbeated into forcing her to teach in an awwa backed school… how long do u think there marriage lasted?

  41. amit January 7, 2009 at 11:14 pm #

    and whats more…mr guneet could have more easily sued a movie with a big star just before its release,,,why bother with awwa of all things under the sun? why go through all the trouble?? his intetions to me come accross as honest and arouse of pure sympathy and concern for the indian soldier’s genuine welfare.

  42. amit January 7, 2009 at 11:30 pm #

    mr depps …poor show…not done.. low spirit… shallow . irrespective of which regiment he was from or what service he did… his point is relevant…and obviously he has touched a painful nerve.

  43. depps January 8, 2009 at 8:08 am #

    @ Chow and Vigilanti.

    Izzat is the only worthwhile asset people possess (whether those are fauji or civvi) which takes a lifetime to build and lasts a lifetime, but can be lost in split second.

    And if AWWA was not approved by govt. sanction, then how was it setup with govt funds ??? Question for u…
    Vigilanti…
    And how should mobile library be sent across within cantts.. Do you want to charter municipality buses… How do you know, the truck has not been chartered on commercial rates….??

  44. Whistle Blower January 8, 2009 at 12:13 pm #

    Dear depps,

    Again you have misunderstood. We are not against the association as such. As I said earlier there are many officers wives associations in the civil too.

    But what we are not liking is the undemocratic style of functioning and illegally taking the support of the public money (not to their own use)to build a parallel power centre.

    I need not to say how much clout these AFWWA presidents have in the admin matters (ofcourse they may not in operational or technical matters).
    How did they get so much of power.

    I can understand that junior officer or a soldier has to serve the superior officers. But should their wives also subserve their bosses wives. I am unable to understand.

    Ok, leave alone that, a commisioned officer is eligible for salute from his
    junior officers and soldiers. For that he struggles hard in his youth, gets selected in the armed forces and undergoes a vigorous training for many years.

    But you say that you have to salute a lady simply because her hubby is senior to you. What logic it is?

    Is that salute so cheap? Have you got it just like that?

    Is she eligible for a salute? Which army order says that you have to salute a senior officers wife. But you are made to do?

    I am supposed to salute my senior agreed. But why should I salute his wife.

    These AWWA/AFWWA/NWWA are illegally creating a power centre around the commanders/senior officers wife.

    And they take the public money to support this and this is what not liked by anybody.

    You say it is totally volunteer but practically everyone knows that whether it is voluntary or not.

    A soldiers wive can never become a president of AFWWA of any level. She is not treated at par in the meetings with other members. Will some one join willingy to make themselve inferior. No way.

    And you want to do all these things with the public money and that is what is not justified.

  45. depps January 8, 2009 at 12:25 pm #

    moreover awwa is the last and smallest part of the organisation’s problems.

    If you want to really do something and that too for long term benefit, then take out the wrong doings from DGQA, DRDO, mes, bro, supply and ordnance and from eme/Wpn Acqn.

    AWWA is not even 0.0001% of what goes on there.

  46. PS January 8, 2009 at 6:11 pm #

    [1] One Pecking Order only please.

    [2] The PO Right for Boss Ladies leads also to Junior Hens
    being mercilessly clawed if they don’t grovel + the hubby
    being wasted by ‘friendly fire’

    [3] Recall a CO’s wife 25 years ago ( was a General’s* daughter
    too, so carried two batons.) Made life miserable for the entire
    paltan. * a vintage Gunner who loved shikar, carpets, crockery
    – u get the drift ? One bright offr won his spurs by sending on
    his wife’s home made ‘partridge achar’; only it was 2 week + old
    chicken, DOA, spiked with lead shot for authenticity.

    [4] Ashok Mahajan was right: HIS Book, pub. 1993 by Rupa
    ISBN 81-7167-143-8
    Titled “UNIFORMLY CRAZY”
    Sub titled ‘Satanic Verses on the Indian Army’
    page 64 Verse 1 and 2 Titled
    TERMAGANTS **

    ” There once was a Brigadier called Mago
    Whose spouse was a real virago;
    All the junior officers wives
    Simply ran for their lives
    At brigade functions screaming ‘bhago, bhago !”

    Rumours are getting ripe and riper
    The first Lady’s no woman but a viper;
    One hiss to the Commander
    About critters ( or their awwa jrs) who offend her
    Down they slump as if shot by a sniper.

    [5] We need an AWWA like we need a pain in the _ _ _

    ** Please see Merriam Webster dictionary

  47. subodh January 8, 2009 at 8:08 pm #

    @ Depps
    Saying that AWWA is a small problem and telling the whistleblowers to look for bigger problems is in poor light.This is same mentality of a petty thief who when caught tells the police why you are catching me when there are big thugs all around.
    This justification just does not stand to scrutiny.
    By the way when you say AWWA is 0.0001% you have prima facie agree that AWWA IS a problem though minor.
    Think it over and not degrade the genuine intention of people who are trying to improve the system.The first step is to accept mistake then only you can correct it.
    Denial will never help or improve
    Regards
    Subodh

  48. depps January 9, 2009 at 12:07 am #

    @ Subodh

    No Sir, My comment was not as you have interpreted it. I guess I was unable to express myself fully.
    My full support for ppl who are trying to improve the system, but that process has to be constructive and consistent. Mr Guneet has just asked for status of awwa and source of finances.
    However many others have extrapolated (incl Mr Guneet) it to a case of financial impropriety (CVC,CBI) and stuff like taking it to so called logical conclusion.
    Now if you take it in this light , financial status, etc are OK. But does AWWA in any way affect the service more than the effect of DGQA, DRDO, MES, BRO, ASC, AOC,AWHO etc (by the way I can tell you of specific issues in all the above organisations). So which should be more priority.
    Wife is an integral part of the organisation…whether of offr or PBOR. We are not mercenary organisations (who work only because we are in the payroll). There is a set ethos, culture and traditions. Most ppl (incl myself) do neither stay in colonial past nor in denial…
    @ whistle blower. I fully concur with u that sometimes there becomes an alt power center and the man at the moment may not be able to digest it or even let it pass. (But I think if you let it go, then at some later point in life U would surely feel amused that such things could irritate u).
    As regards saluting, per mil rule, U salute the rank not the man. And if I remember my NDA precis on mil customs and traditions, an officers wife is considered a lady and lady has to be greeted with a salute (please correct me if I am wrong or if I remember it incorrectly).. This I believe is the direct fall out of British legacy which our services are so full of even today. I remember that there was a BBC team who made a documentary on RR in J & K (I thk in 1997) and when they observed the customs, one retired British Army officer remarked that we are more British than they themselves.

    So while you are at it (to make a change), just don’t change or indianise everything that works. Indian stuff may not work. :)

  49. Tej January 9, 2009 at 5:19 pm #

    Unit Welfares were ment for welfare of the families of jawans, to help them in adjustment and settlement in the army way of life,since they came from a rural background.Thus,knitting,stitching etc were the welfare activities then.Today the background of the families has changed.They do not require such welfare.But the System has got highjacked and the wives of the senior officers have made it a form of entry into the semi-official command structure.And this System is not just confined to the Armed Forces but is common even in PMFs/other Govt orgnisations.

    Ironically,its misuse is more pronounced now a days.Senior officers wives inaugurating various institutions/exercising authority over the junior ladies/receiving gifts supposed to have been made out of love for the senior lady by wives of the jawans(though, in fact, procured from the market,as it is cheaper there)etc.I remember the wife of a very senior commander who used to set the theme for her visits so that gifts could accordingly me arranged.
    Let us,therefore not condemn the AWWA.It has done great job and can still be used as an effective tool for welfare of families.Make it more transperent(there can be nothing to hide in welfare)and define its charter.Why shy away from transperency if there is nothing to hide.

  50. rotor January 9, 2009 at 9:50 pm #

    Dear Subodh
    I have read your comments on various issues in this forum. Somehow I am convinced that it is good that you quit the navy. You may have a reason to grind an axe with the services but let me assure you that it is far better than is being projected in this forum. Having spent nearly 25 years and seen the way things are managed within the services, I feel that the problem lies with the people who join the services of their own free will but find it difficult to adjust with the services way of life. I would attribute this to a combination of poor up bringing, lack of understanding of service ethos, poor groomng in the early stages of ones career and a mind closed to learning / adjusting to a way of life that is alien to ones up bringing. At no stage am I extolling any one to be subservient to your superiors but at the same time one has to understand that one bad commander does not make an entire army/navy/air force. We need to introspect as to how many times have we erred in our own behavior before we start pointing fingers at the service. While in my honest opinion Ladies Club and AWWA/AFWWA meets are defunct in todays era of working wives, lack of servants and children education, there is need to have some organisation that takes care of the needs of service wives and provides them with a platform to project their problems and provides them assistance in their hour of need. Raising issues on their functioning in the manner that Maj Chaudhary has, reeks of vengeance and wanting to get even with some one who has rubbed him whilst he was in service. The intention of the organisation is good, the means may at times be debateable but these are passing phases and are like a sine curve. While I may be accused of being holier than the queen in my sermon let me assure you that I am just another serving officer who joined the services of my own liking and insite of various options available to me am hanging on coz its much cleaner than the muck in the civvy street.

    @ Depp
    I agree with you whole heartedly. The problem is that today though we may have many officers, not many of them are gentlemen. Not their fault, since a majority of our intake is from the land of Laloo, Raj Thackerey, Amar Singh and their kith and kin and courtesies are alien to them.

  51. Chow January 10, 2009 at 12:51 am #

    The problem with senior officers is that they are absolutely clue less what is going on at grass root levels, and neither are they interested. Bosses are ‘made’ to see what they wish to see. While we see our superiors fake reportings day in and day out we can do nothing except feel helpless and stop viewing them as role models and make sure we don’t get groomed the wrong way. I feel it is our superiors who need to introspect themselves and regain their stature of a leader.

    What is ‘services way of life’? Times are changing and so should the organization. The real problem is with the senior officers who find it difficult to adapt to change and unwilling to take bold decisions. They are afraid of change lest they become ineffective in their own new creation. There is a saying – “The only thing more difficult than to put a new idea inside a military head is to take the old one out”.

    @ rotor –

    …poor bringing up… …not many of them are gentlemen. Not their fault, since a majority of our intake is from the land of Laloo, Raj Thackerey, Amar Singh and their kith and kin and courtesies are alien to them…

    You have nicely skirted around the real issues raised by Guneet and delivered your semon regardless… true of a typical bureaucratic fauji – no meat, no action, only Angrezi. I guess you should reserve your opinions regarding various ‘regions’ and how various officers have been brought up.

  52. k_ram January 10, 2009 at 9:25 am #

    @ rotor
    “Having spent nearly 25 years and seen the way things are managed within the services, I feel that the problem lies with the people who join the services of their own free will but find it difficult to adjust with the services way of life. I would attribute this to a combination of poor up bringing, lack of understanding of service ethos, poor grooming in the early stages of ones career and a mind closed to learning / adjusting to a way of life that is alien to ones up bringing.”

    “I agree with you whole heartedly. The problem is that today though we may have many officers, not many of them are gentlemen. Not their fault, since a majority of our intake is from the land of Laloo, Raj Thackerey, Amar Singh and their kith and kin and courtesies are alien to them.”

    I confess that I am aghast and ashamed that a member of the service fraternity, most probably from the senior rungs can believe in this snobbish nonsense and arrogant drivel. My dear rotor, you are talking about those same people who have been selected by the (de)famed SSB process, “best of the lot” etc, etc. Such views deserve universal condemnation. Is it the argument of the writer that recruitment for the officer cadre of the Indian Armed Forces be done at some different country, or from certain ‘elite classes’ who it appears are no longer willing to serve. How about laying down the law that henceforth that officer cadre will be populated only by the progeny of the officer class? Let us see what will be the quality of grooming of those so called senior officers who as of now refuse to send their children to the Armed Forces (with honourable exceptions, of course).
    “If it is difficult to counter the argument, then counter the arguer(?)”. Casting aspersions on those who write something which you do not agree with is the worst example of bad grooming. If you have a better answer, Mr Rotor, counter what is being said. If you agree with what Maj Guneet or Dr Khare say, accept it. If you have a better explanation, say that. It is despicable if you intend discrediting them and that speaks very poorly of your grooming.
    Face it, Mr Rotor and their ilk, your so called dilution of recruiting standards may have started in the 90s whereas the top echelons are populated by officers selected in late 60s (to NDA, I mean) and early 70s. The going was good then, the salaries were alright, style was laid back and the standards of SSBs stringent(?). If we say that dilution has occurred, the entries which are the result of the so called dilution and the so called “Laloo land etc” are too junior in service to alter the service ethos. If you remember, the COAS who bent to Mr Mulayam Singh, was a true blood officer of the old school. As we see it, if the ills of the country can be laid at the doors of “Laloos, Thackerays, Amar Singhs etc” then equal blame will rest on a number of blue bloods. There are as many white collar crimes committed by the so called elite with impeccable grooming as there are blue collar crimes. Remember Enron, Madoff or our own Ramalinga Raju!

    Prag, in his various columns, has been arguing for a more open, more responsive and an organisation more relevant to the ethos of 21st century. There are some bloggers who descend to unacceptable levels, make comments that are unworthy of them, but then, a substantial portion who write have something meaningful to say. My unsolicited advice is

    ‘Please cross swords with intellect and not with abuse (even if carefully couched in apparently innocent words)”

    It is said that ‘Loyalty is a virtue best tested in adversity’ Let me add my take ‘Objectivity is a virtue best revealed during criticism’. No one grudges the respect that the Armed Forces have always deserved, in times of peace and war. But, remember this only, the country pays the Armed Forces ultimately. All that we ask for is a better scrutiny of what goes underneath and not that old whine “we know what is best”.

  53. Whistle Blower January 10, 2009 at 12:19 pm #

    Dear Debbs,

    I am not at all talking about corruption. It is there everywhere be it in the civil or defence so there is no question of cleaning other organisations like drdo, dgqa etc etc. (And I dont think any AWWA presidents gain financially by holding this office)

    What I am talking about misuse of power by those who are not eligible to use that power as per the law of the land.

    I am not against the assoaciation as such. We can have the assocaition, conduct meetings, charge subscription fees, and make charity.

    But the point is that you say that only the commanders wife can be the president of the AWWA. This itself is in total violation of the constitution which guarantees equality of opportunity. And you further bestow the AWWA presidents with so many privileges from the public money to violate the constition, which is certainly questionable. It is only here that I feel there is a total miscarriage of justice.

    The actual aim is glorifying of the commanders wife and a ting of welfare and charity is applied to make it palatable. Otherwise how can one justify salute being given to the senior officers wives.

    Now coming to your arguments for salutes.

    What you said is exactly correct. The salute is givent to the rank and not to the men. When I need to salute only the rank and not the man holding that rank, then where is the question of saluting his wife. But I am made to salute. Please give me some answer to justify this. But I am sure you will have none.

    You have correctly reproduced it from the NDA precis. Since you have said a lady has to be greeted with a salute, I checked the meaning of lady in the dictionries to see f any other meaning exists..

    As per websters a lady is a “woman of good breeding” and as per oxford a lady is a “woman regarded as being of superior social status”

    Now you say officers wife is a lady i.e. woman of good breeding. So do you consider all other woman of this country have bad breeding (hence not salute them).

    Leave the other woman of this country, what about the wives of the soldiers do they have bad breeding.

    Ok leave even that. What about the wives of junior officers, do they have bad breeding or inferior social status? you dont salute your juniors wife.

    What logic it is? It is all fuss because you have not made the ruleto select a person. You have selected the person and then made the rule.

    Again coming to your arguments. What you said is correct it is the fall out of the British Legacy.

    But my question is if we need to follow the British legacy then why have we kicked them from this country in the first place?

    If you say that we need to follow the customs, again I have one question.

    Sati was our custom. We have encouraged and glorified the lady who undertook it. So should we encourage that custom and glorify the person undertaking the sati?

    I dont think you will be able to answer.

    I love the service more than others. It gave me enough opportunity to learn and grow. It gave me a secured life. I still cherish the memory of my association with the defence services, but it doesnot mean that I should not call the wrong thing, a wrong. And I am voicing my concern in the interest of the services and not certainly not against it.

    I found two best

  54. Guneet Chaudhary January 10, 2009 at 2:13 pm #

    Dear Rotor,

    UPBRINGING, HERITAGEand GROOMING, these are the words generally being used by the senior officers,or who has served Indian Army for twenty five years plus. These are the words of Bygone era.

    Sir, without prejudice, please answer these questions.
    1. How many senior officers sons and daughters are serving the Indian Army? just 5%, Sir.
    2. Are you aware that some senior officers are/were from the very moderate background?Sir. ( without any heritage)

    3. What are the reasons for the increasing suicides in the Indian Armed Forces?
    4. Why good number of Officers are ready to put up the papers?

    The reasons, why Junior Officers are taking up the stand which Senior Officers have miserably failed to take up, because seniors are so much involved in managing their post retirement appointments, that they generally forget about the interests of the Soldiers/Officers and Army at large.
    1. Why every retiring General is looking for Governor Ship of a State? Commanding the Indian Army is far more superior to be the Governor of a state.Sir. How can you imagine the Army Chiefs bending and bowing in front of Politicians? That is the reason, why the staus of Generals is being lowered in the Protocol list. In Chandigarh, a retired Chief of Army Staff, being an Adminstrator of Chandigarh has to face the Central Vigilance Commissioner enquiry for land scams, worth crores of rupees, or in another case a retired Chief os Army Staff was contesting for the President of Gymkhana Club, Delhi. This was not so twenty years back, Sir.

    2. How many Army Generals have joined Political parties and contesting the elections? I have seen one who is so deperate to be Governor that he is ready to join any Political party. Why? Further, another General who has been the Governor of the state has very recently shifted to another Political party? Another retired Army Commander became the state head of Thackeray party in Northern India.

    3. Why an Officer of the rank of Major/Rank has got no respect in civil street? because the Generals bend and bow in front of Politicinas and Civil Bureaucrats. I am sure, you must be aware that a retired Major General was called one day after retirement by the Hon’ble Mulayam Singh Yadav, Defence Minister,and promoted him to the rank of Lt. General .

    Why double standards for Seniors and Juniors?

    Sir, I repeat once again, lets us not talk of Grooming, Heritage and Upbringing of Junior Officers or of any other Person of an Indian Origin. THIS IS AN ERA OF CHANGE. WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE USA WILL HAPPEN HERE IN INDIA ALSO.

    Hon’ble Sir, Be ready for the era of transparency and we should be proud of our PM, undr whose aegis this bold act of Right to information Act 2005 has been passed.

    Regards to every one.

    Guneet

  55. PS January 10, 2009 at 2:46 pm #

    Negative to MSWA
    Mil Spouses don’t need to be hounded for their own good or anyone elses.

  56. PS January 10, 2009 at 2:52 pm #

    “Wife is an integral part of the organisation…whether of offr or PBOR. We are not mercenary organisations (who work only because we are in the payroll). There is a set ethos, culture and traditions. Most ppl (incl myself) do neither stay in colonial past nor in denial…”

    PBUH er im

  57. uh oh January 10, 2009 at 2:57 pm #

    Check out the Middle [Edit page] in today’s Tribune 10 Jan 09

    An ESM leader takes the next tiny step to political life.
    Sort of says his wife asks him to….? or was it the poor sod ESMs ?

  58. rotor January 10, 2009 at 7:26 pm #

    @ Whistle Blower
    You have correctly reproduced it from the NDA precis. Since you have said a lady has to be greeted with a salute, I checked the meaning of lady in the dictionries to see f any other meaning exists..

    As per websters a lady is a “woman of good breeding” and as per oxford a lady is a “woman regarded as being of superior social status”

    Now you say officers wife is a lady i.e. woman of good breeding. So do you consider all other woman of this country have bad breeding (hence not salute them).

    Leave the other woman of this country, what about the wives of the soldiers do they have bad breeding.

    Ok leave even that. What about the wives of junior officers, do they have bad breeding or inferior social status? you dont salute your juniors wife.

    What a howler, pal. I’m getting stitches after reading your comments.
    Are you really from the services? Were the basics never taught to you that the normal way to greet a lady in a social gathering / interaction is to salute and greet her irrespective of her husbands rank. Yes today when a spouse can be a lady officer there are occassions when the lady officer would initiate the salutation even in a social gathering. And the normal way of addressing the ladies belonging to PBOR families is a polite Namaste. I have yet to come across a senior officer who has shied away from this very basic service ettiquitte. Where has this question of breeding and superiority come from?

    And yes what misuse of power are you harping on? If you really do want to set the system straight why dont you tackle the misuse of state and central govt machinary by the baboos, the police and the politicians? Why take on the service which is nurturing you and supporting you? just because the service can’t respond to guys like Maj Guneet, they have decided to bully the service and rake up issues that are avoidable in public. Let me assure you that you are doing more harm to the organisation than you can imagine and the media and the baboos are having the last laugh at all of us. there is so much more that needs to be addressed in the services from
    terms and conditions to HRP to eqpt and quality of life that what you guys are discussing is woefully trivial in comparison. And what about the misuse of transport and sahayaks by the junior officers wives whom one sees using service vehicles whilst on personal shopping sprees in local markets. Obviously none of us wish to touch on those issues because they concern us directly.

  59. depps January 10, 2009 at 8:54 pm #

    @ Subodh

    Sir, very valid point from rotor. I myself have failed to understand this concept of PMR at 18.5 years of service and that too by spending more than couple of lakhs.
    As you would have seen from report of SCPC, the govt as employer now is recognizing the CTC basis of compensation. So in addition to the salary drawn as cash every month, it has now included the future outgo in terms of pension also as part of the CTC. And rightly so, the Govt is no different from any other pvt company. So when u had already worked for 18.5 years and after couple of years you would have been eligible for some pension, it just beats me…
    And Navy,army or govt is not one person org, that u can fight with it. It is a system. And no doubt ppl take advantage of this system for their own benefits many times, but that does not mean that a person should put an axe on the ground and then jump on it. :)

    @ Guneet,

    Sir, without prejudice, please answer these questions.
    1. How many senior officers sons and daughters are serving the Indian Army? just 5%, Sir.
    It is good that these are restricted to 5 %. Thank God.. while no doubt many are good professionally and socially, but those who are not, use this machinery to worst possible use.
    My one very ambitious friend (while visiting me) never failed to bring some or other gift for my (son of a gen and secretary) neighbours.

    2. Are you aware that some senior officers are/were from the very moderate background?Sir. ( without any heritage)
    Yes Sir.

    3. What are the reasons for the increasing suicides in the Indian Armed Forces?
    First reason is disillusionment – pure and simple, esp in offrs. There may be other reasons also.
    Ppl get all sorts of fancy ideas of service and which are further reinforced in academies- what prags calls honour based conduct. Some of these ppl may be from insulated background – where their own exposure to practical (?) aspects of life is only thru films (where good always triumphs over evil (always and every time)). And then they get disturbed.. Add a little bit of spice of family difficulty or absence of father figure— There u have the explosive mixture ready…

    4. Why good number of Officers are ready to put up the papers?

    Because ppl get disillusioned (these are ppl – who just throw in the papers).
    Second is ppl get prepared by staying in peace, completing their obligatory service period and also inventing reasons.
    But mind you, given an opportunity most of them would be willing to come back after seeing the Civvi street condition. It is not so easy to earn a living in civvi street, that too with life long pension, benefits…And if some 1 tells you otherwise, he must be the person himself drawing life long pension and then becoming “Sher Shah Suri” for youngsters.

  60. realistthinking January 11, 2009 at 8:21 am #

    Dear Mr Guneet.

    What are the protection laws if a serving Officer asks uncomfortable questions under RTI Act 2005? It is easy for a retired officer but why don’t you campaign forserving officers to take up issues under RTI Act 2005 in many such forums. Please guide us.

  61. MMC January 11, 2009 at 10:28 am #

    @ rotor

    “… Why take on the service which is nurturing you and supporting you? just because the service can’t respond to guys like Maj Guneet, they have decided to bully the service and rake up issues that are avoidable in public. Let me assure you that you are doing more harm to the organization than you can imagine …”

    Also see comments by chow, Jan 7, 5:24 PM (Misplaced Loyalties)

    There is a basic issue here. Is not the nation which comes first? Isn’t the Indian Army as much mine as anyone else’s from the services? Don’t I have the right to know the realities of an organization that belongs to all of us?

    Maj Guneet has done a yeoman service by bringing out at least one such aspect. The feeling of ‘being exposed’ is a manifestation of a doubtful integrity towards the nation. Definitely this is not a private army which most senior army officers of assume it to be.

    Indian Army has an institutionalized philosophy of projecting a grand image of itself regardless of its internal conflicts. The worry of Rotor is understandable (…rake up issues that are avoidable in public… ) since the falsified image is now taking a beating.

    I am proud of our Army and would like to continue to be in times to come… hence the need for change in tune to times.

    Maturity lies in accepting problems and resolving them lest the dooms day is nor too far.

  62. subodh January 12, 2009 at 8:41 pm #

    @ rotor
    respected sir,
    Raising doubts over my back ground and upbringing and poor grooming is poor effort to divert the topic.
    For your information My father is a management post graduate from Jamanalal Bajaj Institute of management studies with additional degree in LAw.My mother was a principal of a school(also double graduate with degree in education)My brother is a IIT qualified Engineer.My grand father was a matric in 1925 from Mumbai,and he had undergone vasectomy in 1948 to avoid unwanted progeny.This is brought to your kind notice to state about my back ground.My wife is a doctor who was 12 th in Maharashtra merit list and My father in law is a renowned scientist in CSIR.This later part has nothing to do with my upbringing but to tell you that there is something for which he got his daughter married to me.If with this back ground I am from poor background at least half the officers wll be from dumps.( I am not interested in proving anything to anyone but this is just a comparison)
    About my grooming it was done from age of 17 in AFMC(Armed forces medical college) which is the second best medical college in india for almost a decade(If not more).If you are making a statement that AFMC is no good better think twice as you are likely to meet the same college doctors while in service and as ex serviceman.And again if we are poorly groomed at AFMC it is the armed forces senior officers who are at fault for not grooming us well.
    As for my adjustment in service there are a no of senior officers in the ranks of Maj Gen and R Adm and above who shall vouch for me with whom I have served.Two of them who were VCNS and Cin C south tried to persuade me not to retire as according to them I was a very fine officer.
    My entire ACR’s have been exemplary as it was put up in High court of Bombay when they pleaded that we cant let go such good officers.
    MAy be they were not as smart as the 25+ yrs service officers.
    @ depps
    You will not understand why I retired @ 18 yrs.Freedom is priceless.Pension etc are peanuts.When i went for my interview in a corporate hospital I was asked whether I was good?My answer was simple,If I quit a secure govt job @ 18 yrs without pension or any other benefit I better be good.I was instantly hired.
    Civvies street is not as bad as you percieve.I shall not even dream to come back.If you have guts quit.As for speaking for myself I am paying as much income tax as my income in forces.I can give you my PAN no. if you want under RTI.
    I get everything in clean cheque payment. Pension etc are just peanuts and some one is hanging around for that it is not worth it.
    Dont make the civvi street as sour grapes.If you think you can do better after giving your best period of life — quit !!No point just hanging around(you end up being a bat — neither animal nor bird).
    The way rotor has written smacks like a passed over officer mentality.
    A passed over officer is more loyal than a senior/selected officer.He cant say service is bad for the fear that people will say that because he is passed over he is abusing service.At some stage some senior officer will say that why dont you quit.So they are more loyal than the kings.BUT every passed over officer says because I was not a yes man I did not make it.
    SO say that service is the best and give tangent comments about someone’s upbringing land of origin etc

    We should get over this defeated mentality.And be more realistic so as to do good to service rather than have an ostrich mentality.
    If I say that service is bad, people will accept it that i have been given raw deal so I am saying this.BUt I am putiing my penny in an effort to improve an institution where I ahve spent more than half of my best period of life.
    Regards
    Subodh

  63. Guneet Chaudhary January 13, 2009 at 11:54 am #

    Hi Friends,

    Please do not make it personal. Some people live in illusions through out life and never live in the Present times. They have become reduntant for the present times and their survival is difficult in changing times. Darwins theory further elaborates it.

    AWWA/Army has failed to submit the documents on Jan 10 as directed by CIC and let us see what happens on Jan15.
    Cheers

  64. depps January 14, 2009 at 9:04 am #

    @ Subodh

    Sir,I am sorry to be responding to ur post for rotor. However, I think in my young life having served in army and navy , I think I can better phrase what rotor was saying.
    For serving in services, the most essential pre requisite is the sense of pride and respect for the services itself. This is actually not very apparent in Navy where the service has to deal more with equipment than humans. Moreover, being in coastal areas, there is more of materialistic attitude than of respect for ephemeral value system and pride of belonging to a particular community.

    I am very sure that you are looking at AWWA from NWWA point of view and that also is doubtful, since Mrs Subodh never attended any NWWA meeting. So as I understand, your knowledge is purely either hearsay or fantasy.

    You can believe me that the institution being targeted by Mr Guneet does a lot more than what is projected here.

    As for the reasons of your PMR, you have pointed those out in your posts. And I would like to believe them. However, at the same time, you have long insinuated that your liquor bills were checked and ur claims were checked.

    I request sir, that if you had any issues, you should have resolved that before leaving service, rather than issue such statements which shows that we ppl in the service are composed of such individuals that we target ppl trying to gain their “freedom”.

    With all due respect, I don’t think that either I am such kind of indl or anyone whom I know would do such thing. And even now, if you have an issue, I would suggest you to write to concerned C-in-C.

    And my consistent stand not only for similar retired/ veterans is that do not treat service as punching bag, that whenever you feel like, any one can come and screw. There is a sense of decorum and respect expected out of similarly placed individuals.

    Lastly, it is good that you are drawing a good pay and are very happy in freedom. But I think if there is any one institution you can thank for, it would be armed forces themselves.
    So kindly be constructive in your criticism.

  65. rotor January 14, 2009 at 4:20 pm #

    @ depps

    Thanks. I actually did not have the time and the inclination to reply to Subodh since I thought that it would be a waste of time. However you have correctly mentioned that when I speak of upbringing I mean a respect for the organisation and a sense of pride in serving in that organisation. The regional references made by me are the anti-establishment sentiment that the political bosses in those states preach and live by as a way of life. They are ever willing to behave irresponsibly, vandalise govt property and have scant respect for the rule of law. The only method they know of raising issues and expressing their point of view is by violence and tyranny against those who are not willing to accept their bigotted opinion.

  66. subodh January 14, 2009 at 11:06 pm #

    @ depps
    You are again wrong.
    I have physically served in Army for 7 years so it is not a hearsay.If you want I can give you account of various AWWA activities which were shear waste of time for not only my wife who was working as a casualty medical officer.One such meeting which my wife attended waas to decide which games to be organised for Mrs VP Malik who was Southern Army Commander going as COAS.This was attended by my wife when my boss “requested” me to persuade my wife fro the same.Instead of seeing serious patients in casualty she attended this great meet.The games were as proposed by the Chief of staff’s wife.So there was no discussion.
    I have no objection on existence of AWWA I have time and agan said that it should have to have audit about its functioning and secondly it should be a volunteer force and not by ladies who are detailed to volunteer.
    If you dont understand how forces work kindly ask a military intelligence officer.He will tell you that the moment you turn against the forces they always check your antecedents.This is routine and you dont have to ask C-In-C. A Surgeon Commander was sent to threaten me to withdraw case in High court.They tried to bait me.Unfortunately for them I did not give in.You have no idea how many reforms have occurred as direct effects from my case.On effect is all specialist officers in AMC started getting their specialist pay immediately after passing out where as we got it after 5 years with NO arrears for the five years.This happened because I brought out the letter to the notice of high court that they are claiming surplus officers in the pool.DGAFMS got a ad hoc sanction for 1100 extra specialists from for a period of 6 years and this to be incorporated in SCPC.(The original pool was sanctioned in 1973).
    If you have no idea as how the govt/MOD functions you should not do guesswork.Being loyal is one thing and being abusive to a person who is working for welfare (Albeit his way may not be to your liking)is another.
    As far as I am concerned I am finishing the discussion (not worth responding to rotor).
    Thanks and regards
    Subodh

  67. depps January 15, 2009 at 9:14 am #

    @ Subodh

    You know what. I would accept what you have written…

    Now atleast I know, that I was not alone. I was thinking that it was only me. But from your post, it is clear that it has happened with others also.

    yes sir, I know about this MI thing. I also had my antecedents checked. And believe me it was done by none other that the same branch which had col purohit (so check my posts, I was never even once surprised that such thing could happen- these guys keep tabs on other people, rather than checking what is going on right under their nose– Can u believe that some of them were organising accomadation…)..
    It was a very scaring episode for me, and infact my relatives were so scared that they almost threatened to break my relations…
    And I can believe abt this surg cmdr also. Because I had also been threatened by some people.

    And you know what, I foolishly went and complained to the same person who had sent that guy … :) I got to know that later..

    I know u would laugh at me.
    But tell me, are u not afraid that these ppl would get to u now.
    But all said and done, no harm done to me… And I still have lot of affection.

  68. subodh January 15, 2009 at 11:03 pm #

    @ Depps
    I was not bothered who does what.I had threatened the southern army commander about going to press. His COL A (adm)came to suitably advice me when I turned tables he practically started shivering.
    Through out my court cases I was being “suggested ” that i will be seen later after the case was over.However I simply told them that no one can demote me and at the most you will give me a bad posting of three years.
    As long as you have done no wrong nobody can touch you.The organisation is surely fair that way.Further I was working as an exemplary officer as a doctor.At one time they had even considered me for a C-In -C commendation when they realised that I had put up a case in court.
    BUt as a officer with guts(because I had put up cae in court I was listened well by the top bosses and a large no of my suggestions were implemented(because it was automatically assumed that I had no vested interest).
    One such example.
    DUring annual inspection in Goa.I was OIC medical stores and I was not getting medicines from the AFMSD.(Neither medicines nor NAC)EVen crocin syrup needed to be locally purchased.So a common sailor/soldier was suffering.
    When I point blank told the C in C that things are not alright and a soldier does not get common medicines like crocn syrup for his kid.I showed the C In C all the emergent indents and the correspondence.The CO crapped in his pants and tried to cover it.However the C in C(V Adm PAsricha) listened to me and noted down the details.This was followed by a strong letter and personal talk to DGAFMS.
    The result– all Military hospitals got their NAC as a standard procedure if drugs were not available.
    I procured medicines worth Rs 13 lakhs in next six months against NAC where as my LP power was 5.5 lakhs for one year.INHS Asvini got NAC’s worth one crore.(Not even knowing how suddenly they started getting NAC’s).
    So if you are not corrupt and know your rules and regulations you can do a lot of welfare.
    A no. of my friends are still there in Navy and Army and unfortunately I have been a legal advisor for a no of officers.
    Regards
    Subodh

  69. Kancha January 16, 2009 at 12:20 pm #

    Dear All,

    First of all I am very happy that at least someone has tried to ask for some transparency in the exisiting system. I am quite suprised rather than giving juducious contribution, lot of people are just beating behind the bush. Some are talking about the faulty intake , about the heritage, about the background of the officers. one should be well aware that on bullet it is never written that you are from Laloo’s land, Bal Thackray’s or you are from dumps. Lets not talk on these lines and not try to justify what our lady wives have been doing in the past. Major Guneet has asked for only one question IS AWWA is a part of Army or not? Authorities should tell him . Why they are giving so many excuses. I remember once I had gone for a visit to a formation and the cultural evening was kept for 5.00pm but some how we reached there late and at the enterance therewas a enactment of a small playlet. I observed that one lady was in a very angry mood and I immdtly asked her for the reason. I was told that they were there from 3.00 pm and were waiting for the VIP. Incidently she was a Docter and was forced to do that event by the order of senior lady. I immdtly stopped that thing and assured everyone to not to force anyone for this type of events. If it is only on charity basis ,people who have the will to do it should do and not forcefully.
    We should not make a mountain out of a mole ! We should help in making it more professional volounteer organization. And it is high time when we are going to become one of the superpower of the world still we are following British Traditions whom we have thrown out from our country. Bravo Major Guneet’

  70. Guneet Chaudhary January 16, 2009 at 5:49 pm #

    Hi All,

    Oh, what a reply from AWWA and Army in the court of CIC on Jan15. It is more like saying, WE ARE INDIANS NOT BHARTIYAS.

    I Think the time has come to lift the veil of hypcorisy of senior officers.
    Wait for tomorrow, Friends.

    Guneet

  71. An Old Friend January 16, 2009 at 7:43 pm #

    @Guneet,

    Oh, I am so thrilled ! What a coup!! I hope the b–y hypocrites are taken to the streets and flogged!!!

    Sir, Is there anything we can do to help? Any other issue? contributions?

    Rejoice, my dear free fellowmen! You are free from the yoke of the shewolf.

    A couple of questions, if I may-
    1. So we are about to find the body, but what was the motive, Sir?

    Next time visit AWWA shopping Centre, find out from the Civilian AWWA employee about his salary and any benefits. You will be shocked my friend.
    2. How much is it, anyway?
    3. Was your prime aim to get the civilian employee his dues?

    No really. Anybody fibbing/ circumventing the issue needs to be punished. Maybe Guneet can take us through the unfolding of the entire issue, some time soon.

    Bravo, Sir. If only the issue was of some significance. Alas!

  72. MMC January 16, 2009 at 8:11 pm #

    @ Guneet

    You may consider starting your own blog on related issues! Trust me it would be a great service to the services.

  73. voyager January 17, 2009 at 2:04 am #

    Good job Guneet. Keep us updated.

  74. dsc January 17, 2009 at 3:34 pm #

    what was the outcome of the AWWA and Army in the court of CIC on Jan15?
    what is the latest?

  75. Guneet Chaudhary January 17, 2009 at 4:50 pm #

    Hi All,

    CPIO ( Central Public Information Officer) and representative of AWWA submitted the documents to the court of CIC on 15 Jan as ordered by CIC.
    In Brief, AWWA stated that no funds were ever received from Indian Army . It is a private body. It is run by just on its own.
    2. Failed to state from where the funds came, Just by selling cards and selling goods in AWWA shops in Army Areas
    3. No serving Officer is posted to AWWA. It is the voluntary service done by the Army officers/JCO’s and jawans for their love for the senior officers or Army.
    4. No official resources of the Indian Army have ever been used.

    Now let me mention the submissions made by the representative of Indian Army, PIO, Appellate authorities, ( Officers physically present in the Court)
    1. All Army Officers serving AWWA are doing voluntarily service in the free time.
    2. No funds from the Army have ever been given to AWWA.
    3. Appointments of Staff officers and other officers to AWWA is just a misnomer, they are just providing Liaison services.
    NOW MY COMMENTS:
    Hon’ble friends, I am sure you will agree with the answers. How truthful our brethren in Indian Army? How much transparent Indian Army is? I am afraid, If the veil of this hypocrisy is lifted, what will happen? There will not be much of difference left between Politicians, Civilians and Army Service.

    The Balance sheets submitted clearly shows the Grants of lakhs of rupees, but no one knows the source, neither Hon’ble officers nor the AWWA reps. I am sure this gift is from Santa Claus. There is grant of 64 lakhs in 2006 but no one knows the source.
    No statutory compliance of the laws by AWWA by claiming to be part of Indian Army. When Guneet wants the information, they claim it to be NGO. No answer to the audit objection worth crores of rupees ( 75 crore) raised by Comptroller and Auditor General of India, because AWWA claims to be NGO and no relation with Indian Army.
    No details of the contribution to the War widows and others. It has been shown as general expenditure. Audit has been done by local audit who themselves confessed that they have been forced to sign on dotted lines.
    When questioned by CIC what is the main source of funding ?AWWA lawyer confirmed that AWWA does not get any Grant from Canteen Stores Department, and further emphasised that this can be cross checked from the CSD headquarters. When questioned about the officials released documents of CSD duly signed by Quarter Master General that 9500 crores ( from 1951 to 2008)has been given by the CSD to Army for Welfare and out of that a major portion of it was given to AWWA. There was no answer, feigned total ignorance.
    Further ,Army HQ MS Branch issues posting orders of Staff officer of AWWA as it has got the power to issue posting orders of private NGO’s. Friends if you are running or associated with NGO’s, you can ask for services of officers from MS Branch on voluntary basis. ( Copies of the Posting orders submitted to CIC).
    CIC HAS TAKEN A STRONG EXCEPTION TO THE SOURCE OF FUNDING and has summoned Canteen Stores Department Rep to confirm, whether they have given anything to AWWA since 1951 or CIC further ordered AWWA representative to give the set of complete information to Appellant (myself). Army Rep and AWWA Rep literally begged for some more time to give the records. Logically and legally every thing is clear but let us wait for some more time to see the end results.
    I had started this exercise to get the information about the funding of AWWA. The purpose is to ensure that organization works for the welfare of men, widows and orphans not for the welfare of Senior Army Wives. It should remain AWWA and no SAWWA( Senior Army Wives Welfare Organization). It should work as per the Memorandum of Association as signed by Mrs Chaudhary (the then wife of Army Chief) and the first President of AWWA on 01 June 1966. THE CRORES OF MONEY LYING AS FIXED DEPOSITS WITH AWWA SHOULD BE ACCOUNTED FOR.
    All widows, dependants, disabled soldiers, orphan children should be given firstly professional training in reputed institutes in different fields not only in Candle making, Paper bags. Employ them and give them standard minimum wages and mandatory perks. Why to employ a trained serving soldier in selling vegetables, ration in AWWA shops. No serving Officers/Soldiers should be permitted to serve in AWWA.
    Finally AWWA should remain an welfare organization not a parallel hierarchical organization in Army and its membership should be on voluntary basis and no enforcement of orders like Army. Why not work as a team? The spirit beyond its formation should be realized. A TOTAL RESTRUCTURING OF AWWA. SIR.

    • Pragmatic January 17, 2009 at 9:57 pm #

      @Guneet:

      So what’s the way ahead? Do keep the readers at this blog informed. And continue this fight till you get the answers.

  76. Maneesh Joshi January 17, 2009 at 6:57 pm #

    @rotor
    Get off your high horse, sir. And please, I suggest you revoke those atrocious comments on grooming, upbringing etc and that crack about Laloo, Amar Singh et al. Contribute constructively, sir(and i am not addressing you as such because you are senior to me or any of that hogwash, but because that is the time-honoured appellation of public debate. I suppose you know this. Just thought of reminding you that there are more people with good grooming than what you think possible…) and LISTEN to what the others are writing. Who loses if you have blinkered eyes and muffs on your ears? You want to be an anachronism, most welcome to it. For the sake of the service of which you are undoubtedly an asset, i humbly suggest, please espouse such thoughts and beliefs as would speak highly of its noble ideals.

    @ Guneet,

    Bravo, sir! You have set one ravenous cat among very fat and tasty pigeons. Let truth prevail. I most fervently pray that the monster is slayed truly and completely, never again to torment its hapless victims.

    @ Dr Subodh,

    Sir, i feel really bad for you. Served the Army well and all you got was a kick in your b…s. Don’t worry, there are vast numbers like you. Their time will come, some day, some day… Keep the faith (in yourself!) and your chin up, you will win.

  77. voyager January 17, 2009 at 9:02 pm #

    @Guneet

    “The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed,
    for the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more
    easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The
    primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a
    big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies,
    but would be ashamed to tell big lies.”

    ~Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf

  78. An Old Friend January 17, 2009 at 10:00 pm #

    Oh My!! Did the old Cows gobble the entire amount?

    http://awwa-india.org/asha_schools.aspx

    Dear Friends,
    I hope that the time and effort given by my wife at ASHA School, Patiala, can be compensated out of the cash given to AWWA by the CSD fund.
    You know, she, who belongs to such a reputed family of our native town, but had to on occasions, even cleaned up after the differently abled children. You see, they can’t control their bowel movements.

    She also got into the muck of mediating between a drunkard and his silly uncouth wife without seeking any monetary benefit. So what was the big deal, if that scoundrel Naik was beating his wife. The wife could have gone to the police. Only problem was the Jat policemen could not understand/ nor cared to either, the woman from Nagaland. But last week, we recieved a New Year Greetings card from Nb Sub and Mrs Athengpou. Its been 8 years.

    Anyway, I believed my wife did it for the sake of my career. Which ultimately went nowhere at all. After all, she was just a captain’s wife. (She denies it- says she was motivated by what the other ladies did. What else do you do at Lalgarh or Ganganagar!!).

    Then there was this period of Op Parakram. All personnel were out to forward areas for almost an year. Can we compensate the efforts of the senior officers’ wives in keeping the flock in good humour and faith.

    Sirs, I have served with at least three non military establishments in the course of my service. No body gives you the time of the day, less you are perceived to be of some importance. Lets take an example- in the present military station, the instructions are that a lady wife will be detailed, in rotation, to go to the Military Hospital and meet all lady and children patients there. She gets the feedback and prepares a brief for the local president AWWA. Now does this gesture got to be voluntary or against payment.

    You may harp on the ‘detailment’. I will say, read Maslow.

    So there are AWWA get-togethers and parties. Some senior ladies enjoy while the jawans’ and even more, the young officers’ wives are stressed out. But then, in army except for a few late marriages- every wife is once that of a young officer.

    As Guneet says in defence of the poor Local Audit People who were forced to sign on the dotted line. (Nothing/Nobody forces them, Sir!!), so were we then a poor captain and his wife, now a poor Lt Col (SC) and his wife. Can we be compensated in cash for the hours spent, we too will say that we were being forced. (Psst, Even now, my commander’s wife is standing behind my back )

    I too bear a million grudges against the system and the people who are using the system. But then to get even by targetting the weak spots, such as AWWA. This is not soldierly.

    I hope you do visit an ASHA school for the differently abled, sometime.

  79. An Old Friend January 17, 2009 at 10:31 pm #

    And the brasspots at AHQ, please come clean because the fog only lends credence to insinuations and surmises.

    As suggested elsewhere, open the communication lines within the org, atleast.
    http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/2009/01/16/a-general-blogs/

  80. MMC January 17, 2009 at 11:34 pm #

    @ An Old Friend

    Regardless, the activities of AWWA in its present form are illegal as per law of the land. Isn’t that a reason enough to do close shop? No one is seeking payment for services! The issue is legality.

    If you do really care… you don’t need to shout. You don’t need an AWWA to start caring if you really wish to! You can still teach if you wish to, you can still look up a jawan’s wife in hospital if you wish to… Do you go running around shouting when you have cared for your wife or kids? Isn’t it because it has become an instrument of career progression by keeping the lady hierarchy happy?

    Trust me those who do care are doing it, silently… without AWWA!!

    Look at the reality! Times have changed. The officer’s don’t want it and the jawans hate it… because it lacks truthfulness for the cause it stands for.

    We need to appreciate efforts of Guneet who has taken the lead to force change. He continues to serve the army in true sense!

  81. voyager January 18, 2009 at 12:22 am #

    @AOF and MMC

    I agree with MMC. Isolated events of personal effort do not define the larger picture…and the larger picture is of a wicked kind of slavery, camouflaged manipulation and loss of operational capability being enacted in the name of welfare.

    I know Guneet can’t question the amount of man-hours the Army collectively spends on AWWA (because that’s got no quantifiable proof) but the fact is that it is surely many times more then what is spent on operational matters, and all those in uniform know it.

    AWWA actually deserves to be sponsored by the ISI for the amount of harm it does to the operational efficiency of the Armed Forces.

    Its time to reform and time to applaud people like Gunnet who are doing this yeoman service to the nation as well as on behalf of thousands of honest soldiers who curse this parallel heirarchy everyday but are helpless to do much about it.

  82. Yash January 18, 2009 at 12:59 pm #

    Guneet and Prag,

    where r U???

    what happened to the anti AWWA movement?? i was hoping for some fireworks!

  83. Tej January 18, 2009 at 1:08 pm #

    The Army is a vocation which provides you with a society along with a service.It is in no other job where you see an officer’s wife intermixing with their workers’ families and looking after their welfare-whether voluntery or detailed-isn’t it such a good thing?We need AWWA. At the time when the units are away on exercises or operations it becomes incombant on part of the CO’s wife and other officers’ wivies to look after the junior ladies.They do these things not always for their husband’s ‘naukri’ but out of a sense of responsibility.We need their contribution.Call it by any name but the Army needs such traditions,for the moral of the jawans and for their faith in the orgnisation that some one is there to look after their families back home.
    Let us not throw the baby with the bath tub.The AWWA has done and is doing and is required to do in future such welfare activities.Please do not live under the false notion the the ‘babus’ in the MOD will replace it with an excellent establishment and the defence forces will live happily there after.
    We need AWWA and the contributions from our Officers’ ladies for sake of our troops and their families,whether some body provides funds or not.The contribution of our families is very great and lets acknowledge it – which ‘neta’ or bureaucrat visited your homes when Kargil / Prakaram was on ? We need AWWA for our units and families but without control/feedback from higher HQs.Let each unit be responsible for its own welfare,without directions from the ‘top’.The AWWA at Command /Army HQ can be chartered for jobs like widow welfare and other philanthropic activities and funds provided to it.
    Flogging this issue further will only take away our powers without any returns.Remember,moment you pass the control to someone else ,he will start dictating you the terms-you will no longer be your own decider.
    And by the way,the only way of greeting in uniform is a salute,irrespective to whom it is.How will it look to see a uniformed chap with folded arms(like a cop) ? Be proud of the uniform and follow certain traditions which make us stand apart.

  84. Guneet Chaudhary January 19, 2009 at 11:31 am #

    Hi all,

    As per the last hearing,
    ARMY HAS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH AWWA and AWWA REPRESENTATIVE SAYS WE ARE A NGO AND WE HAVE GOT NO FUNDS OR ANY MATERIAL/HUMAN SOURCES FROM INDIAN ARMY.( serving/retired officers ask your self, Is it a fact? How truthful our brothers are in Indian Army? Why can not they own up the fauxpaus?

    BOTH CLAIMS TO HAVE NO RELATION WITH EACH OTHER.

    NOW IN THIS SITUATION, I THINK THE BEST THING TO HAND OVER ALL THE DOCUMENTS TO CENTRAL VIGILANCE COMMISSIONER FOR AN ENQUIRY AGAINST AWWA AND TO PROCEED AGAINST AWWA AND ARMY IN THE COURT OF LAW. THE POSSIBILITY OF A HUGE FINANCIAL EMBEZZLEMENT, CHEATING AND FRAUD CANNOT BE RULED OUT IN THIS SITUATION.

    As claimed by the counsel of AWWA, it is doing yeoman’s service to the nation but does not want to disclose its sources of funding. Let the CIC pronounce the final judgment.

    Guneet

  85. drsubodhkhare January 19, 2009 at 3:52 pm #

    @Guneet,
    Doesn’t this substantiate my claim that they will go to any extent to prove their innocence.
    Perjury ,falsification of documents ,selective amnesia(Loss of memory),wilful forgetfulness etc will be shown by them time and again.
    Nevertheless we fight not to prove anything top anyone but for our own peace of mind.To improve the system to whiom we have given heart and soul.
    Well done(well begun is half done) adn kindly let us know if we can be of any help.I shall make every effort for it
    @ Old friend
    No soft personal stories to defend AWWA.
    My wife was working day and night to give medical and psychological support in Goa to the 13 crash victim families for 3-4 days till their families arrived(without any support needed from NWWA)
    The President NWWA(Mrs Madhvendra SIngh) did not have the courtesy to even sit with the ladies on ground.She was sitting on chair and the ladies were on Durry on ground.SHe did not even put a hand over any lady’s shoulder.
    Every single officer( why only officer,soldiers and civilians Also) have done such exemplary individual services in their lives.That need not be credited to AWWA or NWWA etc.
    As a doctor I have been instrumental in getting a sailor upgraded from a LMC so that he was selected for a branch commission and today he is a commander in Navy.I know a no of my doctor friends have been giving money to our soldier’s wives when they land at MH without any money.At a no of times they have been admitted to family wards for logistics support.
    SO let us not try and give a AWWA colour to an individual acts of humanity.
    As for myself.I was not aware that as final transfer grant on retirement i was entitled for one basic pay.thus I had submitted my tranfer claim of Rs 2000/- being the actual truck charges.One of my patient from Naval pay office sent my claim back with pencil filled claim with advice to make it fair and put a proper claim.On submission of the same CDA has cleared the claim of Rs 38,000/- and credited to my account last year.
    I still dont know who this gentleman is who has doen me such a favour.
    If you do good it comes back to you.You dont need AWWA banner for it.Nor these acts of individual goodness are a monopoly of NGO’s like AWWA.
    @ Maneesh Joshi
    Dont feel bad as I myself dont feel bad.If you are caught by a python and when you get scotfree do you feel goof for the freedom or feel bad for the two broken ribs?Dont bother about persons like rotor.They have a passed over mentality and hence are more loyal than the king attitude.I have met such in dozens in parties.
    Relax and do your job regardless
    Regards
    Subodh

  86. MMC January 19, 2009 at 5:59 pm #

    @ Tej

    ….looking after their welfare-whether voluntery or detailed-isn’t it such a good thing?

    Do you really think forced ‘voluntership’ as a good thing??

    ….it becomes incombant on part of the CO’s wife and other officers’ wivies to look after the junior ladies

    Are ladies ‘junior’ and ‘senior’ too?? Who is looking after whom?

    …We need AWWA and the contributions from our Officers’ ladies for sake of our troops and their families.

    Why can’t the Army take up case with MoD for creating an professionally managed institution for welfare if it has to be done anyway.

    …Remember, moment you pass the control to someone else ,he will start dictating you the terms-you will no longer be your own decider.

    Are you not a Public Organization and hence answerable to it!! Sure it is not a private army ?? (or is it!!)

    …. Let each unit be responsible for its own welfare,without directions from the ‘top’.

    Will never succeed !! No one wants to give up control!! Will you??

  87. Narinder January 19, 2009 at 6:14 pm #

    @ Guneet

    Great job indeed. While very few officers may comment on this blog, invariablly all officers around my place are regular readers and have tons of good wishes for you. Believe me there have been no exceptions that I have come across as yet.

    Can you please upload a copy of reply submitted by AWWA?

    After all we should know which organisation have we been working so hard for!!

    Thankx.

  88. Sandy January 19, 2009 at 6:20 pm #

    Good Idea!! ISI will be too willing to finance AWWA!

  89. ds January 19, 2009 at 6:42 pm #

    dear
    guneet
    i think its all a drama n since media is not taking active interest , army will never say the truth, why doesn’t the cic believe that awwa meets take place its there in every magazine like baatcheet or anywhere.
    all the very best to u, god is with u to end this hypocracy drama that is on in the indian army, wish army officers get permission to speak in media like nepal army or the american army where ,the actual state of affairs will come out n then one will know what a shit we live in .

  90. Mehta January 19, 2009 at 10:34 pm #

    @ Guneet

    There was a news sometime back regarding Govt decision to partially revoke the ban on freedom of speech for Armed Forces. I heard something hads even come through, though not very sure. As such the service personnel will never be told because any Govt orders in this regard will invariably be buried deep in AHQ itself.

    Can you please provide an update on the issue in case you are aware?

    Regards

  91. voyager January 20, 2009 at 1:04 am #

    @Guneet

    Actually we need to clearly seggregate the concept of welfare and AWWA. Welfare as a concept is ingrained in the military working. It is a command function and is tought to us right from the cadet days.

    Till not so long back (I am talking of the 80′s and very early 90′s), it didn’t require AWWA to ensure welfare. The officer’s wives still visited the families admitted in hospitals and the concerns for the jawans and their families was always paramount because it related directly to the morale of the troops one commanded. There were no glitzy AWWA offices and Staff Officers then.

    Yes, we did have the candle making and the odd nautanki program then too (and they possibly were in tune with the times then and much lesser); but it is only in the last decade or so that every welfare activity has been casted in the AWWA mould and instituionalised – thus subverting functions that were peformed as a matter of routine. Its a deep malaise that’s proliferating and needs to be nipped now.

    Kudos to you for having taken on this onerous task and rest assured that the bulk of our Armed Forces are with you on this (though they may not have the voice and freedom that you enjoy, something which you’d well understand).

    You’re well on your way to becoming a legend and a saviour ;)

  92. An old Friend January 20, 2009 at 5:33 pm #

    OMG!
    Waiting for a legend and a saviour!!

    Who are you guys? Army Pers?

    If we agree that welfare is a command responsibility, then has any one of you suggested any alternate arrangement for the CO to conduct this function.

    What is the issue with AWWA?
    a) The head woman steals the funds meant for widows?
    b) The head woman does not give respect to ‘Junior’ Ladies/ troops wives?
    c) The head woman’s interference has robbed you of your career?

    Answer me- If AWWA goes, what, in your opinion, will be the first positive outcome? Give out your assessment. Anyone? Lets discuss scenarios.

    Then we have Sh Khare here,
    Sir, I have read a lot about your struggle with the armed forces and that of your lady wife only through this blog. Nothing Personal ;-)

    Anyway gentlemen, I suspect some of our regular posters here, purporting to be officers are, in fact, not army personnel at all. So please carry on!!

    Write truthfully, if you have put in 15 years service or more. Do you not see any merit in AWWA?

    And regarding embezzlement, fraud et al as suspected by our advocate friend, I support and applaud him if he aims to brings the culprit individuals to face justice.

  93. Menon January 20, 2009 at 11:20 pm #

    @ An Old Friend

    Why not simply distribute Public Funds to troops. That would be nice welfare too. So what if it has no legal standing!!

  94. ds January 21, 2009 at 7:29 am #

    dear guneet
    actually the senior offrs cannot overcome the fact that their wives will stop getin importance and privileges if this org is delinked from the army, lets see these senior offrs wives doin actual welfare by travellin in sleeper class n goin to widows , can they ?they cant becoz they are used to choppers and an-32, and offrs to accompany them, and lavish welfare parties where they want to be felt important by sittin in front sofa n rest dancing for these ladies, u ask a jawans wife to perform for a visiting senior lady , she wuld never say yes , but jus to avodid harassment to her husband at the workplace by seniors ,she does it , if awwa be a voluntary org why have lavish parties in the backdrop of awwa , lets make it simple and why she gets to fly with her husband ? as awwa president . why not an majors wife if she wants she wuld not get a veh to go to hospital, but the staff cars violate all the rules ,i can post snaps of staff cars in the market , but no objection by cmp, but if its a junior offrs wife, see the change in reaction , is that u call welfare. then i think seniors have to justify this doing , which is wrong but yet happenin. n no one can stop this injustice .

  95. drsubodhkhare January 21, 2009 at 3:18 pm #

    @ An Old friend
    Respected sir,
    I am not writing in this blog to gain any sympathy.Neither I took the fight for anyone else.It was simple fight that if you can leave by applying your political/beurocratic source or paying money then a person who wants to leave and has genuine problem has a right to leave.This point has been vindicated in Supreme court, that’s it.
    The idea of writing on this blog is to educate more service officers about their rights and how to exercise them.I have been able to give consultation to about 65 officers in last 2 years on issues ranging from appeal medical board or retaining accomodation on study leave etc.I am happy about it that a number of them have been able to meet their requirements
    Coming to your points
    1)Nobody says that Sr officers wives steal funds.They misuse the resources which may include funds,manpower, vehicles etc.The idea of this petition is to ascertain the locus standi of them i.e. whether they are authorised to use these resources.
    If as a service doctor I use a costly anticancer drug (One neupogen injection costs Rs 14,000/-)on a poor civilian will it be acceptable to army? No.
    why? I am not getting anything from that.
    Was the person poor and needy? Yes.Was he benefited by this ?yes.Doesnt that mean welfare?
    Then why am I liable for court martial?
    take your call.
    This is misuse of my position/power though it is done for welfare.
    2) The head woman does not give respect to junior’s /troops’ wives.
    This is seen everywhere and need no amplification.The issue is the junior’s wives have not asked to come to AWWA parties/functions.You call them for Coffee mornings etc functions.They come leaving their nonschool going kids at their neighbours and then they are made to sit on ground and drink Tea in disposable cups and the senior officers wives get bone china cups.
    Nothing wrong in disposable cups.It is the discrimination which is not acceptable to the ladies/juniors.If you are invited you are guests and in indian culture guests are not treated this way.They have not applied that they should be called to grace the occasion etc.
    I have heard many officers defending these actions.Let us accept that We cant accept the equality.Imagine your JCO coming in Skoda Octavia and you as a officer coming in Esteem.I can bet that 90% officers will get an ego problem and harass that soldier.My own JCO owned three trucks and had a good business run by his brother as his partner.
    3)The head woman has robbed you of your career.
    Certainly.I had a tiff with a C-In-C’s wife.She was interfering in the hospital functioning, insisting on meeting a lady as president NWWA in ICU who was in barrier nursing zone for burns.I refused her admission in the interest of patient.I was asked to apologise to the lady which I refused point blank.Since my comanding officer knew the truth(himself being a medical specialist) he intervened and the matter was hushed up.SInce I was a medical officer and my promotion /career was time scale I could take the fight.I still wonder whether this would have been possible for a arms officer?
    This may be epitome but these things keep happening as known to all our brother officers not to mention the soldiers.
    If things were clean why did army had to go on denying or hiding or delinking itself from AWWA.That smells foul.
    Now lets have AWWA with free and fair elections with purely volunteers.
    EVen a soldier’s wife can be president or secretary.Allocate funds for specific purposes, have audits by external auditors and see if it works.
    First of all no senior officer’s wife wil come(Good riddence)SInce it will be a volunteer force the efficiency will improve, nonmotivated members will be out.SO even if you achieve half of what the current AWWA achieves it is good.Anything more is better.SInce nondeserving officers will not make a career by pleasing the Sr. officers wives the army will be benefited as well in long run. another gain.
    Any takers?
    Regards
    Subodh

  96. Prabhakar Bedi January 21, 2009 at 9:18 pm #

    I am dumbstruck..either way you go it shows deep resentment against women controlling behavior of people junior to their husbands or the husbands themselves. I had heard of some such things like welfare but the venom being spitted out here is phenomenal.

    It tells the common man that all is not well with the holy cow, that you can pursue a career in the armed forces purely by pleasing the bosses wife. The conversations suggest we haven’t gotten over the Raj era of mem sahibs.

    I hope I am wrong but in a non profit making organisation like the armed forces where merit is largely a function of reports written by the senior officer..toeing the line of his wife can definitely take you places. In my perception, shaped largely through this blog, that is the real issue.

    Corruption is organic and inherent to all Indian systems in varying degrees. Armed Forces have been no exception (from onions to guns and coffins the nation has experienced all). I am sure even this organisation can not claim innocence, specially if the cash inflows and outflows are as vague as they appear to be.

    My request to all the bloggers and the powers that run these welfare organisations is to reorient and delink them from the wives of serving officers. Well,they can volunteer and participate in all activities but have this thing managed professionally.. if it meets with the larger aim of providing any succour to the social group as such and would not cost the organisation much. If needed people like me can work out your business models.

    Nevertheless, it is a good effort to root out the basic malaise, but washing dirty linen of the armed forces in public…well you guys and your generals are the best judges

  97. voyager January 21, 2009 at 9:43 pm #

    @AOF (#94)

    Most others here seem to be “normal” Army personnel Sir. You though appear to be a General! That would explain the strong conviction and you are sure entitled to your POV.

    Answering your question – If AWWA ceases to exist the way it is today; following simple things would immediately happen:-

    1. Much more time for operational matters and true intimate welfare.
    2. Much more time to spend with our children.

    The rest has already been said.

    @Prabhakar (#98)

    If people in an organisation question its ways and have a heated argument about it – that’s healthy isn’t it? A change is needed, that’s what the arguments are essentially about if you strip the invectives.

    And let’s not be so paranoid about bringing our issues out into the open as long as the end result is an improvement. Read “A General Blogs” on this very forum.

  98. voyager January 21, 2009 at 9:55 pm #

    @AOF (#94)

    I also find your “if you have put in 15 years service or more” caveat a little intriguing.

    Most commentators here I guess have crossed your “lakshman rekha” but its a pity you have such a mindset. Are the youngsters only good enough to fight with their men and not good enough to have an opinion about their welfare? Is welfare such a holy grail and a previlege of the senior lot alone?

    That’s precisely what people here are arguing against Sir. Give it a thought.

  99. depps January 21, 2009 at 10:41 pm #

    @ Subodh

    Sir,
    I am understanding this post of urs. But let me tell u, the reality is like this. The services have a different culture as opposed to what u are writing. The only thing that matters is rank not only for offr but also PBOR. and also their families. It is a rank based culture. Earlier, when ppl of good standing used to consider it as a privilege to serve – there used to be inherent professionalism and soldierly conduct i.e. dignity, respect, courtesy, etc not only within acquaintences but also with other ppl. Moreover the services were isolated in cantts and restricted area.

    Now the situation is totally reversed. More and more ppl are joining because it is a good govt job- safe and secure. Also services are coming in direct contact and also influence of society. couple this sit with lack of leadership and role model, and what u get is all sort of chaos where the easy way is to go thru to next higher and then next higher and then next higher rank, even at the expense of all value systems, because this is the easy way and there is hardly anyone who has the history and the capacity to stem this flow.
    It is all about difference in potential and increase in entropy i.e. degree of disorderliness.
    Do u really think that all these CIC petition, etc can make a difference ?? As such ur concern is not financial bungling, but shift in culture. A person who is professional, capable and has the ability to call a spade a spade is considered either insane or is sorted out… Do u really think that anyone even cares… Present system has the capacity of even brow beating the most well intentioned person to such a level, that not only him but his entire family would think that he has done a big mistake.
    Sense of logic, reason and facts have been given a burial.

    U r amongst the lucky few who by virtue of being a doc, could again resurrect ur life and perhaps would be able to do good for ur family.
    But consider this – that even when u are superceded, the sys would not let u go. So u can see less capable ppl go up the value chain thru tricks and trades , but u can not even condemn urself.
    Every month – there are atleast couple of deaths frm army rallies due to either stampede or other reason. In Nov – dec, they had in Amritsar, some days back they had it in UP. Thousands of ppl come for one post. This ratio beats even the ratio of Harvard, Yale and other Ivy leagues. Is there is a dearth of applicants… No. But still ppl have problems. And these problems are their own creation. But they look for solutions from outside.

    How will solutions (i.e. if at all some one is interested and he is long enough in a responsible chair) ncome. These can only come when there is “Neeyat” (I could not get an equivalent word in ENglish). The issue is transparency and professionalism. But that would require lots and lots of vested interest to be overthrown and who wants that. No one.
    PPL complain about civic admn and others. How they are so corrupt and how every 1 is taking bullet on his chest for the nation …Is this true. My distt in Western UP (no less – in mayaraaj and mulayam raaj) has got its own website… Do our ppl in any branch of army/navy/AF have it. My experience is that u can keep complaining, these leaders will not respond also if they don’t want to..
    So Mr Guneet can keep filing as many RTI as he wants and as such AWWA in my opinion is a very peripheral issue and he will get these responses.
    Let us all see, what happens..

  100. An Old Friend January 21, 2009 at 11:12 pm #

    Sirs,

    I am absolutely and without any reserve with all those here who expect that there should be no misappropriation or inordinate misuse of funds meant for the troops. Any person involved in a deliberate act of commission or omission needs to be publically censured and punished.

    Having said that, any utopian solution, such as open elections for AWWA leadership, will be impractical. I would request the knowledgeable to let us know the special qualifications, if any, of Mrs Sudha Murthy, Mrs Nita Ambani or Mrs Naureen Wadia or even Mrs (Dr) Darshan Kaur, except quirks of fate which make them travel executive class while the hoi-polloi runs to catch the bus.

    No, I am not a sucker for servitude of the masses, but believe that AWWA can be run as we all want without abandoning it and the various causes it espouses.

    For starters, I suggest that those from the armed forces (especially those retired) and blogging here, care to send a hard copy of the deliberations here to the various presidents AWWA and their other halves. Just flood them with it. Maybe a few will see the light through this sea of anonymity.

    Give the old cows a chance to improve if their behavior towards the subordinate servicemen’s wives and their interference in our service matters is the main issue.

    We should involve the legal eagles only if there is fear of financial irregularity and then the law should fall upon the cheats like a tonne of bricks.

    My fear is that our friends such as Prabhakar#98 would supply a “business model” which will seek to put a monetary figure to each moment of sympathy or compassion which a CO’s wife feels for the widow of a departed jawan. That will be travesty.

    @ Dr Khare and Voyager,

    Sirs, I understand that the situation with AWWA is a shade of gray (growing darker by the day) but I hate throwing the bath tub with the baby.
    Since in the armed forces, personalities matter ultimately, we can only hope that the ills can be plugged by only allowing capable and understanding people reach the top. Earlier in the era of periodic wars, the chaff used to get sifted automatically.

    The panacea for all our ills is improvement to the goddamn CR system. If 360 degree appraisal is permitted, appropriate people will reach where the majority wants them. So this is where we should focus, rather than wasting our effort in issues such as AWWA, AWES and the like.

    There is good intent hidden in these ventures.

  101. voyager January 21, 2009 at 11:29 pm #

    @depps

    Dear friend, let’s not give up so easily. The biggest revolutions and opportunities are a product of anarchy (entropy as you call it) and I don’t think we’ll need to reach that state.

    There are enough good people in the Army still and they will continue to be there. Honour, professional pride and honesty are still very much alive in the organisation and I think such people are found in all walks of life, not just the Armed Forces. The callous few mustn’t make us lose faith – even greed goes out of fashion as the world is now realising.

    A lot of us will still rise in the heirarchy by our sheer merit and hard work. It is for us to influence and mould the course of events. Stop the candle making as COs, educate and restrain our wives as we become senior, listen to the changing times.

    I at least have not given up. AWWA is not evil – it just needs to transform to stay meaningful. Its very achievable and we’re seeing the first visible salvos being fired.

  102. ds January 21, 2009 at 11:44 pm #

    sir,
    i would like to add another point , that the seniors are against the change n its natural becoz they n their wives r used to it now,the second thing is that arny does not need bold n upright people , as they retire as timescale , so no place for honesty n truthfulness, jus the trick plays the game,for once allow media n see the fun , seniors n the treatment they give to us once in open will give the world the shock of red tapism,but since none is with u only god can give justice to the torture awwa does to a serving officer wive from civil backgrnd becoz she has to be told the language of slavery to make her n her husbands life comfortable , make awwa meet voluntary n lets see the fun, for once. come on seniors lets see if u can do it, i know u cant but try …

  103. An Old Friend January 21, 2009 at 11:46 pm #

    @Voyager,
    Sir,
    The point with the 15 years caveat is that an officer gets to command at least a small independent unit by this time.

    He gets to make decisions which have bearing on the issues of a jawan’s welfare and those of his family. The OC/ CO and his wife get to interact (with a mature mind) with the jawan and his family and thus get to know them as individuals.

    A young jawan and his wife are treated as your child/ younger sibling and they would take your advise as such.

    Basically you are able to make mature decisions with an understanding of pressures of family life.

    I hope this was satisfactory. No denying that some of the younger officers can have superior understanding of human nature.

  104. voyager January 21, 2009 at 11:46 pm #

    @AOF

    You make a valid point Sir. The 360 degree appraisal is another aspect we must incorporate as you rightly point out. It is one root cause which helps the mediocre rise beyond their ability.

    IMHO the organisation is still overall SHAPE-I and we don’t yet need a full organ transplant (ie a War) to make us fit (thinking of Dr Subodh now ;) ). Minor ailments can be treated piecemeal.

  105. voyager January 22, 2009 at 12:05 am #

    @AOF

    Point taken Sir.

    I have myself commanded a unit some time back and the concern and compassion that some of my Company and Platoon Commanders (youngsters all) had for the men and their families went far beyond what me and my wife could muster. I could also recollect my own days as a subaltern when I was similarly concerned because we all were truly like a family. That was the basis of my argument.

    My sincere apologies for the slightly inappropriate language earlier – got carried away like all us good soldiers do. I know you mean well and we are on the same side.

  106. depps January 22, 2009 at 12:53 am #

    @ voyager

    If there are such ppl as u described in the service, then I am glad.

    U can understand that lot of dirt in a close knit org like in service, IAS, IPS, etc, etc does not come out. What happened with Satyam. There were independent directors, besides the promoter who had just 8 % of shares. But none of them raised even a whimper.
    Why, because inspite of them being financially well off and in the best possible academic position — they were busy sucking and licking rather than look for the interest of the public.
    Can you imagine today what is the state of more than 40000 people and their families.
    See, no one wants to be a whistle blower… And that too before the harm comes.
    This is the same state of our services… And the most unfortunate part is that the services and bureaucracy are not even responsible. So what is 1962 takes place. We will blame it on politicians..or on some one individual (Kaul). Do u think that he was only responsible.
    In the same way, in this case it is ok if Mr Guneet asks for the details. But he should not expect that he would get a reply which he is expecting (and that is what happened eventually).
    You see, ppl in any service (individuals or even group of individuals) can do any sort of activity – like right now how we are posting our comments. However, when govt or a part of govt responds – those have to be in accordance with law, be truthful and should not sound as evasive.

    I think that people who gave this response should be given a course in constitutional law and should be told that govt is not their mistress.

    I was unable to find the reply on cic website (of 15 jan), but I am astonished that such reply was given. However, if there is an issue- and some one is pointing it out, then it has to be fixed. Where was the doubt in it..

    But right now and even before, the culture has become that hear no evil, see no evil and of course speak no evil. Whether evil exists – that is for future generation to sort out, even if they will. And if there is a fiasco or breakdown in the already corroded system, then the man of the moment will take it .
    Please do not be under any illusion (however good ur intentions may be)—–
    Such system do not breed any victory and successes.
    Instead, these systems breed what appears to be success or what is made to appear as successes. That is what you gentleman witnessed in Mumbai couple of months back.

    But do u think any one cares – when they are busy celebrating the death of unni’s and Gaj’s.

    Infact what they are saying is that u come and screw us – and we will give u more unni’s and gaj’s .
    It was not systemic failure as our CNS described. It just demonstrated how hollow the system is and how any tom, dick and harry can come and screw it whenever they feel like – whether u are in a mood for a screw or not.
    . When do u think seeds of this failure were sown. A commander or leader who over looks failure of value system – should be given a bigger boot than the culprit itself.
    Professional service – my foot..
    This system needs a overhaul by right thinking ppl. and sooner the better – because world is not waiting or going to wait for Indian services to wake up. ANd many will not hesitate to give a boot up – right where it will hurt the national psyche. ANd then ofcourse we will have the usual charade 0f—

    (a) Blame politicians.. When finished, go to (b)…
    (b) Blame bureaucrats…. When finished go to (c)…
    (c) Blame individuals…. When finished go to (d)
    (d) Forget and forgive and hold 2 min silence.

  107. drsubodhkhare January 22, 2009 at 9:12 am #

    @ AOF
    I have never said scrap AWWA.The organisation should be made more accountable.Thas it.You will understand how much resentment is there in the lower ranks about the AWWA.
    Unless you make a big noise no one listens.Thats why you have to raise the volume.
    There are a large no of activities carried out by AWWA are very good like computer classes for soldier’s families @ dirt cheap rates.But what is needed is how much is the percentage of money spent on welfare and what percentage is the administrative expenses ( !!!) that needs to be looked into.
    In our army language what is the teeth to tail ratio?
    If 80 Rupees are spent in administrative activities and 20 are left for welfare it is best shut down.This audit is absolutely essential.
    I also fully understand that it is not possible to run AWWA as a pure democratic organisation,But currently it is run in a pure autocratic/feudalistic manner is also not acceptable.
    As a no of peoplesay that the system is rotten.I may not agree.Despite having a long drawn court battle(3.5 yrs) I still say that the system is 95% fair if not more.It is easy to say scrap the system.
    It is like system of marriage,it may not be the best but what are alternatives.Till you have viable alternatives you have to live with in this system and try and improve it as much as possible.
    Saying that people rise due to their AWWA connection is a defeatist mentality.At the best 2-3 % may have come up like this.
    If you dont make it in promotion you get an excuse saying that I did not please the CO’s wife thats why I lost out.No one wants to accept that I was not upto the mark.Or I did not lick up the bosses.
    “”NO situation in life is so bad that it cant be blamed on somebody else”"
    @ Prabhakr Bedi.
    NO one will write that we have done this and that in army,that is not army culture.We are discussing the shortcomings of army as a system and how to improve it.
    I am working in corporate circle for last 2.5 yrs and the only driving factor is profit,everyone is there to earn money.BUt I know what is their short coming.
    Just to give a small example.a big corporate hospital offered to help in Latur earthquake and sent their doctors @ Killary(the epicenter of quake).These doctors were eminent doctors in their fields.They were best in corporate circles.But on ground they were not used to working in tents.Mind you when you have natural calcmity nothing is there.They had come with their coats and ties.They had not even thought as to where they will eat.No hotel was present anywhere in near 50 km radius.So instead of any help they were burdem on the existing state.Except for a few surgeons and anaesthesiologists everyone was asked to go back.
    The first govt agency to reach there was army and the field ambulance reached there third day with fully functioning OT including a 140 KVA generator,10000 liters water purification system, sterlisers for OT equipments medicines and bandages etc.(In any natural calamity all your buildings power water etc infrastructure gets wiped out)This was not even thought by the corporate people.
    These surgeons were overwhelmed by the kind of preparations army had.(Essentially being eminent surgeons they did a good job ultimately but the administrative machinery needed they had not even imagined.) All were extremly happy to have this kind of experience and today few of them are proud to mention the honorary rank confered to them.
    So thinking of running an army institution in a corporate manner is not as simple as we think.The good corporate governence prionciples may be needed to be applied but dismantling this system is not easy as we tyhink
    Regards
    Subodh

  108. Guneet Chaudhary January 22, 2009 at 1:28 pm #

    Dear Depps and all,

    Well, the AWWA and Army represenatives literally begged to CIC that I should not go to media. Once the decision is given it will be in all the news papers.

    Secondly, Interim orders are never pasted to the website. it is the final order which is put on the CIC website. So please be ready to see the fire works.

    When i started this excercise in 2006, I got the same comments/arguments from worthy Generals both serving and retired, that I should not expect much in this case. But I carried on and will definitely take it to a logical end.

    ARMY HAS DISOWNED AWWA AND NOW AWWA HAS DISOWNED ARMY.( What a statement?)

    Generally, we all in forces blame Politicians, Bureaucrats and Common people for increasing corrupt practices. There are number of examples, where an Army General as Governor of state has broken all the records of corruption. An Army General was punished for molesting a lady officer ( Army Major). Any Army General is involved in court martial proceedings for selling substandard rations. An Army General without a law degree was functioning as Head of Legal Branch of Indian Army( now under scanner). This is a brief about Generals. If you talk of other officers, they are also available in plenty. To quote, Passport Scam, Band Scam etc. We criticise Politicals parties, a retired Army Commander was so desperate to join a political party that he became the head of Shiv Sena for Panjab and Haryana. ( If any one wants the detail information, it can be provided).

    Sir, people from the Army, Civil, Bureaucrats and Politicians are the same.Every one is looking for his personal interests.

    We from services take our seniors for granted, but time is coming, when Men will starting questioning,Sir. Time is coming, Sir. Ketchup encounters will become history.

    No one is above law, if any one does wrong, he should be dealt with according to the provisions of laws.

    Guneet

  109. Guneet Chaudhary January 24, 2009 at 4:37 pm #

    Dear All,

    Please see the order passed. HUM MARTE HAIN DUTY, WAFADARI AND IJJAT. Is this for Jawan only? I think I must sue the Reps for Perjury.

    Order:

    CIC DIRECTS AWWA TO PROVIDE DETAIL INFORMATION TO APELLANT.

    On the last hearing on 15 Jan 2008, AWWA presented in writing its response to the various queries made by the Information Commission during the earlier hearing. However, on AWWA’s Counsel refusal to furnish a copy to the appellant, the CIC ordered AWWA to give the copy of the reply to the Appellant. On perusal of the balance sheets furnished by AWWA ,the Appellant pointed out that it did not reflect the entire sources of income of the AWWA and specifically referred to the 2008 report of the Canteen Stores Department (CSD) in which CSD had claimed to have contributed to the AWWA and some others a total of Rupees 9500 million over the past sixty years. The said evidence was produced by the Appellant. Taking a serious note of the evidence adduced by the Appellant, the CIC ordered the Canteen Stores Department representative to be present on the next date of hearing and apprise the CIC of the contribution made to AWWA on year wise basis. Further CIC directed AWWA to explain on or before the next date of hearing the annual hiring cost of Government premises in which its offices and facilities are housed.
    Surprisingly, though the Army authorities till date claim AWWA to be an independent entity, the AWWA’s balance sheets were submitted by Army .The records further revealed that the Audit of AWWA was conducted at the behest of Army authorities and the audit reports were also submitted to Army’s Adjutant General’s Branch. It clearly shows that Army has direct control over the funds of the AWWA. The Appellant had raised many issues regarding the balance sheets submitted and the same will come up for discussion on the next hearing. It may be recalled that Comptroller and Auditor General of India in one of its reports had also raised questions regarding the functioning of AWWA.
    The copies of posting orders of serving Army officers on AWWA’s assignments furnished by Army further substantiated Appellants claim that AWWA is substantially using the human resources/sources of the Indian Army. During the earlier hearings, Army authorities have declined having posted any serving Army officer/personnel’s on AWWA duties. The posting orders submitted by the Army authorities clearly shows that posting orders are being issued by the Army’s MS branch, and it clearly reveals that posting of Staff officers is directly controlled by the Indian Army. It clearly shows the misuse of Army machinery by AWWA though the Army authorities speak otherwise. It has been contended by Army that all men associated with AWWA are rendering voluntary services after the Office hours and are contributing voluntarily from their own monies
    ____________________________________________________________

    LET US SEE WHAT CSD SAYS. THEN WHO FINANCES THE AWWA.
    SOME UNDISCLOSED SOURCES, WHICH ARMY WANTS TO KEEP IT SECRET.

    GUNEET

  110. subodh January 25, 2009 at 12:21 am #

    Dear Maj Guneet,
    If you were a serving Major you wouldd have been court martialled for bringing disrepute to AWWA (and Army) under article 42(or 70 I dont remember exactly now) for violation of good order and military discipline and would have been jailed for 7 yrs.
    Now you are liable to be labelled having a support from ISI(covert or overt) and being labelled as traitor.
    However every serving officer knew that there was something fishy about AWWA (like satyam)But people did not know the depth of the scam.
    Not that we still know the depth fully yet.
    Thats why I had said that you may have to convert this into a PIL.
    Bravo and Well done
    Regards
    SUbodh

  111. Tolerant January 25, 2009 at 12:54 pm #

    Washing dirty linen in public.

    Tolerant

  112. subodh January 25, 2009 at 7:58 pm #

    @ Tolerent
    Time has come to discard the linen rather than wash it
    Regards
    Subodh

  113. contrived January 25, 2009 at 11:57 pm #

    @depps at 6
    Fiduciary responsibility is NOT what you think, sir, of keeping your mouth shut to protect your previous employer!
    It is this:

    “In the handling of money and when one acts as a corporate or individual trustee, there is a fiduciary responsibility owed to the principal party. It is defined as a relationship imposed by law where someone has voluntarily agreed to act in the capacity of a “caretaker” of another’s rights, assets and/or well being. The fiduciary owes an obligation to carry out the responsibilities with the utmost degree of “good faith, honesty, integrity, loyalty and undivided service of the beneficiaries interest.” The good faith has been interpreted to impose an obligation to act reasonably in order to avoid negligent handling of the beneficiary’s interests as well the duty not to favor ANYONE ELSE’S INTEREST (INCLUDING THE TRUSTEES OWN INTEREST) over that of the beneficiary. Further, if the agent should find him/herself in a position of conflicting interests, the agent must disclose the dual agency (acting for two parties at the same time) or risk being accused of constructive fraud in regards to both or either principals.”

  114. Capt. (Retd.) Paramvir Singh January 26, 2009 at 12:17 pm #

    What Maj. Guneet has bought out is a very valid point. The intentions with which AWWA and AWHO were born were no doubt noble. Even Maj. Guneet has no questions about it. But he is right in questioning about the way it is operated and the powers that be in the army should boldly try to correct themselves and put every thing on the right track. The cause is noble, no doubt, the way it functions should also be transparent and exemplary. And yes, the army should be able to stand up and say that it is behind these organisations, with ex-servicemen, war widows, physically handicapped soldiers at the job, as suggested. This will the fighting fit soldiers to justify their existence.

  115. Capt. (Retd.) Paramvir Singh January 26, 2009 at 12:19 pm #

    117.

    What Maj. Guneet has bought out is a very valid point. The intentions with which AWWA and AWHO were born were no doubt noble. Even Maj. Guneet has no questions about it. But he is right in questioning about the way it is operated and the powers that be in the army should boldly try to correct themselves and put every thing on the right track. The cause is noble, no doubt, the way it functions should also be transparent and exemplary. And yes, the army should be able to stand up and say that it is behind these organisations, with ex-servicemen, war widows, physically handicapped soldiers at the job, as suggested. This will allow the fighting fit soldiers to justify their existence with pride.

  116. Guneet Chaudhary January 26, 2009 at 5:15 pm #

    Dear all,

    The person who denied the information regarding the functioning of AWWA has been conferred PVSM. This is the way Army functions.

    RTI ACT is going to bring transparency in every organization. Even a serving a officer can ask for the information under RTI. I agree, he can be booked under UNBECOMING CONDUCT OF AN ARMY ARMY OFFICER. Well, this section is only for junior officer, Why the senior officer should not be booked under the same section for not abiding by the laws of the land ( RTI HAS ALSO BEEN PASSED BY THE PARLIAMENT).

    When you start litigation against a government organization, one has to be very cool as this takes a lot of time. HUM DESH JE KIYE JAAN DE RAHEN HAIN is the common sentence used by Defence Personnel to cover their misdeeds. Money has become a major issue in fauj and other matters have taken a back seat. WHY NO SERVING GENERAL OFFICER PROTESTED THAT ASHOK CHAKRA SHOULD ONLY BE GIVEN TO ARMY OFFICERS/JCO”S AND OTHER RANKS WHO HAVE SHOWN EXEMPLARY COURAGE AND SACRIFICED THEIR LIVES FOR THE COUNTRY? IS IT JUSTIFIED TO GIVE TO POLICE PERSONNEL WHO ACTED LIKE A FILMI HERO AND WITHOUT TAKING ANY PRECAUTIONS WENT TO THE FIRING AREA AND WERE SHOT DEAD BY THE TERRORISTS. WHAT BRAVERY THEY HAVE SHOWN? IF SACRIFICNG YOUR LIFE FOR THE COUNTRY CAN GIVE YOU ASHOK CHAKRA THEN ALL THE SOLDIERS OF INDIAN ARMY WHO HAVE SACRIFICED SHOULD BE GIVEN ASHOK CHAKRA. NO SERVING OFFICER RAISED ANY QUESTIONS ON THIS. VERY SOON MY FRIENDS, YOU WILL SEE THAT ONLY POLICE PERSONNEL WILL GET THIS GALLANTARY AWARD WHICH WAS EXCLUSIVELY MEANT FOR DEFENCE PERSONNEL.

    EVERY ONE KNOWS ABOUT THE FUNCTIONING OF AWWA BUT NO ONE WANTS TO RAISE THE QUESTIONS REGARDING ITS FUNCTIONING AND SOURCES. WE CAN COMPARE IT MORE TO A POLITICAL PARTY IN WHICH NO ONE CAN RAISE ANY FINGER ON THE WORKING OF HIGHER COMMAND.

    DIRTY LINEN SHOULD NOT ONLY BE DISCARDED BUT THE PERSONS WHO MADE IT DIRTY SHOULD BE TAKEN TO TASK.

    IT IS JUST A BEGINNING AND AWWA WILL BE RESTRUCTURED AND FUNCTION ON THE SAME PRINCIPLES FOR WHICH IT WAS CREATED BY MRS. CHAUDHARY ( WIFE OF GENERAL J.N. CHAUDHARY). THE PARALLEL HEIRARCHIAL ORGANIZATION OF ARMY WIVES WILL END AND THEY WILL BE COPTED IN ADVISORY ROLE ONLY. SURPRISINGLY, THIS IS THE ONLY ORGANZIATION WHICH DOES NOT FOLLOWS ITS OWN RULES AND REGULATIONS, ITS OWN MEMORANDUM OF ASSOCIATION SIGNED ON 01 JULY 1966. IT IS NO DOUBT A PART OF THE INDIAN ARMY AND SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO ALL FINANCIAL CONTROLS AND LAWS OF THE LAND.

    WAIT FOR FEB 15-FEB20.
    GUNEET

  117. Sachin PK January 27, 2009 at 12:18 am #

    >IS IT JUSTIFIED TO GIVE TO POLICE PERSONNEL WHO ACTED LIKE A >FILMI HERO AND WITHOUT TAKING ANY PRECAUTIONS WENT TO THE >FIRING AREA AND WERE SHOT DEAD BY THE TERRORISTS. WHAT >BRAVERY THEY HAVE SHOWN?
    Assistant Sub-Inspector of Police Tukaram Ombale (may be eq. to Naib Subedar in Indian Army) got hold of Kasab’s A.K 47 Rifle even when that Jehadi was firing. This officer died due to the injuries. But because of that one terrorist was captured alive. How many Army Majors (Gumeet chuadhary included) have even tried doing that? And you say police men did some thing silly? Learn to learn the bravery of other people (be it civilian, fire brigade personnel or police men). Bravery is not some sort of a private property of Army people (and that too Officers). I am sure Maj. Gumeet chaudhary would be extremely happy if AC was only given to Indian Army men above PBOR.

  118. manhew January 27, 2009 at 2:46 pm #

    guneet. How do I get in touch with you ?

  119. Guneet Chaudhary January 29, 2009 at 12:44 pm #

    Hi Sachin PK,

    Well, I have got a great respect for Sub Inspector Tukaram. He has done some thing, more precisely, caught hold of the terrorist. But my friend, what about Kamte, Saleskar and karkare. Have they injured even a SINGLE TERRORIST ON THAT DAY. AS PER THE REPORTS NOT EVEN a SINGLE. They should have taken all the precautions, using a bullet proof jacket, proper planning of that operation. I think you are not from services background. The teaching of any trainig school, whether Army Police or any other security agencies is that no one should take action in haste. A proper planning ( which is done in a fraction of minute) to handle such operation. In this case three of them were travelling in a same vehicle. This is not correct operationally. If three of them would have been in separate vehicles we may not have lost these three brilliant officers.
    My comment is that if dying for your country is the only criteria for giving AC, then every Jawan, Junior Commissioned Officer, Officer or their equivalents, either in Police, Para Military, Fire Brigade, or why not any other civil agency also should be decorated with a Ashok Chakra. The procedure should be same for every one.
    My friend, if you check the record, every other day a personnel of defence forces is dying either in Siachen, J&K, North East or in the regular Army training excercises. Why they are not given Ashok Chakras? have you got any answer, Sir.
    If these officer could have taken precautions, they could have survived and the biggest loss to their bereaved families could have been avoided.

    Lets us talk about facts and not only on emotions.

    Guneet

  120. Guneet Chaudhary January 29, 2009 at 12:46 pm #

    Manhew,

    You can contact me on guneetchaudhary@gmail.com.

    Guneet

  121. Stray Barks January 29, 2009 at 4:07 pm #

    No AWWA and we don’t need no May Queens either. Not a military function.
    Tooth to Tail is. Tit to Tail is not.

    The DSOI, till several years ago officially permitted serving women officers to Catwalk. Don’t know if they ever did. But I have the stupid circulars allowing them to. There were / are serving officers on the DSOI Board.

    After yrs truly wrote ‘funny’ letters all over the place the rules were amended and I have a DO to that effect from an ‘enlightened’ AHQ. Was I astonished ? You bet.

  122. Prabhakar bedi January 29, 2009 at 7:09 pm #

    Murky and avoidable. But I guess Guneet and his ilk have been really rubbed on the wrong side. Alright you are the lawyer and it is your duty to take this to its logical end..I have no complaints and wish you well in giving everyone achance to hyperventilate

    As an aside, I hope you had spent this much time in debating a national security apparatus, need for professionals in the ministry of defence, equipping policy of the armed forces and allied corruption in the big or small ticket purchases, better facilities for our troops and the like..well I am fighting for these causes which would improve our defence preparedness and would request all to join me in this campaign..

    Lets fight the common enemy and not waste our valuable time cribbing, complaining and criticizing, which any one can do..lets cleanse the holy cow in a myriad of other productive ways..jaihind

  123. Guneet Chaudhary January 31, 2009 at 2:14 pm #

    Prabhkar,

    Yes, I agree there are some important issues, which can not be ignored but lets take the first step.
    There are some issues which are beyond the purview of us or under RTI. As per the RTI act you can not ask for the information concerning the security of the country. It will be a futile excercise to discuss any thing, which can not produce any result. So you have to bear with me the constraints of RTI Act.
    The second issue is CSD. I have already filed my application under RTI Act. You will be surprised that a profit ranging from 2% to 40% is levied from the CSD Depots to the URC’s ( Unit Run Canteens). under what authority this profit is levied, no one knows. Another mystery.

    Sir, if RTI act would not have been passed, there was no provision of law under which you can question any authority. It is only after it came into existence, things have become possible. Even the Judges of the Supreme Court will come under its purview.

    Army/Airforce/Navy are more like a shell Can you imagine a Soldier of an Indian Army was dismissed from Service by Suummary Court Martial for raping a buffalo. Is this is possible? A lay man will not believe this, but our Hon’ble Brethern in Army have done it because one of the officer was not happy with the concerned soldier. I had filed his petition with the President of India and she had directed the Army to reinvestigate his case.

    Sir, time has come when Holy cow has to prove that she is holy and sacred. It has to be proved.

    I have got no personal interests involved, but at the same time I ensure that I must do something to streamline the organization, where I had spent the best time of my youth. It is an effort and I will do that.

    Guneet

  124. depps January 31, 2009 at 8:14 pm #

    @ Guneet

    One question :

    u r surprised on account of what :

    (a) that a guy raped a buffalo, or
    (b) that he was dismissed.

  125. prabhakar bedi January 31, 2009 at 9:48 pm #

    @ Old friend and Voyager

    In sync with your thoughts on the concept and approach towards these issues..no you don’t need to put a business model to sympathy, just make it empathy and delink AWWA as your operational function, which I guess it is today. I am against the approach of the blog but some aspects merit a deeper and meaningful look. Hope you will understand.

    @ Guneet

    Not all life and specially a noble profession like the armed forces can be viewed only through the prism of RTI. There are a lot of issues which merit investigation and that must be done without fear or favour, while you are donning the uniform by standing up to what you perceive is wrong and misplaced. There must be provisions in the army laws also to take care of these issues?

    Is that why we are approaching all malaise through anonymity..will that help the larger cause and satisfy some at the cost of others. This could be a degenerating practice of serving people stabbing behind the backs through RTI, sponsored by retired officers. I take your filing the issue of CSD as correct but then let law take its course..let us not hyperventilate.

    My only question to you is Why did you not stand up to all this when you were donning the uniform? Would it not have been possible? The problem is here. Self preservation while in service and destroy the very fabric when out of it.

    I agree with both straybanks and depps for a variety of reasons..guess why?

  126. depps February 1, 2009 at 12:58 am #

    @ Bedi Sir,

    But why Sir, Why…do u agree with me…

  127. TomBasil February 1, 2009 at 6:44 am #

    When you die towards protecting your fellow country, you don’t get extra points for being policemen, as opposed to the army or the ATS. The current scheme seems to be similar to wall street where you get more money for being more incompetent. Here is a suggestion: have scientific and measurable way connecting pay per hour to a person. A person in the tea-sipping regiment of the army that is not put to a high-level of risk all the time should not be getting paid the same amount per hour than a person who is in the middle of himalayas like on Siachen glacier, where exposure to the elements can kill in a matter of minutes.

    So maybe the public intellect’s focus should be on the level of risk a person would expect on the job at any given time. This is just an incentive for youngsters to not shirk from taking risky posts. Similarly, a policeman in a dangerous neighbourhood would have to be paid more than a policeman in a coffee sipping neighbourhood where everyone’s too rich or too lazy to commit crimes..but everyone has to be vigilant whether the risk of crime is large or small. Similarly, the army pay scales should be in line with the level of risk a person is exposed to — a soldier in Siachen can be given a more comprehensive legal contract during the course of their stay in siachen — this way the level of pay is in direct proportion to the level of risk a person is taking for their nation.

  128. subodh February 1, 2009 at 2:19 pm #

    @ Prabhakar Bedi
    Respected sir,
    By your logic no doctors should be under the purveiw of RTI least under COPRA, as it is also a noble profession as old as mankind.Are you ready to accept.Let us not fool ourselves and give undue importance to this holy cow.
    I further do not subscribe to this idea of taking up other issues of improvement in services, national security apparatus, need for professionals in the ministry of defence, equipping policy of the armed forces and allied corruption in the big or small ticket purchases, better facilities for our troops and the like..etc
    This is exactly like telling all the doctors that now war is on let us stop treating the patients and take up the real issue of war.No sir ,
    Every person has to do his job.SO if Maj Guneet has taken up job of cleansing AWWA and CSD let him do it.
    Why dont you take up these issues yourselvesunder RTI rather than defending the sacred cow?
    Asking this question that why did you not take up the issue while you were in service is a wrong question.I had taken a few issues like this in services.Nothing much happened till I was transferred from the naval station to army station.At Pune I put a statutory complaint on theft at AFMC mess.They waited till I went on leave and then sent me a letter saying your format is not proper.Unfortunately for them I had learnt how to fight my case so i showed them regulations and asked them to send the case to the army Cdr.The Col A of SC came to “suggest” me a few things.However I threatened him of going to press through my father.After this one Maj Gen who was my great teacher at MBBS and MD pleaded to me to withdraw the case.Just because we are indians and consider the teachers next to god I withdrew the case.
    This is state of a person who had case in Supreme court for release.I dont think anyone who wants to continue in service can afford to do this.

    When Mr. Kruschev the President of USSR was talking of ills of Previous president (Mr. Stalin) in Cremlin,one voice said from back why didn’t you say this when he was president?
    Mr Kuschev thundered who said it?
    There was pindrop silence in cremlin.
    After a long gap he asked,Now you understand why?
    Sir, I hope you have understood it.A large majority of officers are silent readers on this blog.We can convey to them the wrongs and how they can help to set things right.Let us not protect the ills under garbs of sacred cow.
    Regards
    Subodh

  129. an old Friend February 1, 2009 at 3:28 pm #

    Listen all,
    You go after the fringe issues such as CSD, AWWA etc, the bunch gangs up. The wind blows over. Return to square one.

    Talk straight like an army man- (even if you are not one- ‘straight’, that is ;-) ).

    The problem is the Pyramid. Too steep to climb without a crooked arm.

    Can you do anything? Else- blah, blah.

  130. Guneet Chaudhary February 2, 2009 at 1:09 pm #

    Hi All,

    No annonymity, I have filed an affidavit in the Court under my name. I personally appear in the court of CIC. Straight action.
    Gang Up, What are you talking, they are literally on their knees and plead ( this they have submitted in the affidavit) to me in all the hearings to withdraw from this case.Sir, you must realize that Pyramid at top is always very weak and once touched, fall like a pack of cards.
    Thirdly, why this action was not takan by me, when I was in Uniform. Dear Sir, there was no provision of law, ( Civil or Army ) before the passing of Right to Information Act 2005 to ask for such information. Thanks to the present Prime Minister, who was the main force behind the passing of this act. It asks for total transparency in the functioning of the government.
    Finally, dear Sir, law is blind and takes its own course, no doubt, but only when some one stimulates it.
    In this entire excercise,I am following the legal procedure and fighting the case on merit and not on emotions.
    Kind regards,

    Guneet guneetchaudhary@gmail.com, 9888100225

  131. mahi February 9, 2009 at 12:22 pm #

    I would like to know where the funds from the visits of the VIP’s come fro for AWWA, its a well known fact how much Army issued Petrol is wasted for rehearsing the entertainmetn programs and then there are issues like procuring some special kind of sweet or fruits for a visit in Jammu or AUrangabad or any place in India from Jalandhar, Delhi , Calcutta etc. A person is always sent on TD”s like this.

  132. manisha February 9, 2009 at 12:30 pm #

    Maj Guneet well done and please can I have your email ID its vewry rare to find people finally standing up to a nuisance and you have most of junior army wives full support and I can’t say about the senior wives thoughas their husband’s promotion depends on their AWWA activites as I have been told by my commanders wife.

  133. manisha February 9, 2009 at 12:39 pm #

    Here is what is the latest in AWWA, we all are practicing this anthem to sing in Awwa meets — Video

    have a look

  134. an old Friend February 9, 2009 at 8:56 pm #

    Come on Manisha!

    The Good Advocate has given his mailID and telephone No just a couple of posts above you.

    And then this post had expired (So I thought).

    AWWA will NOT kill your husband’s career. He must pass the DSSC and do well in the courses he attends. Keep your head up. Don’t let anyone mislead you otherwise.

    Just be careful as the pyramid is steep and slippery.

  135. Guneet Chaudhary February 10, 2009 at 5:59 pm #

    Hi All,

    What a tragedy? Major Unni Krishan’s father has gifted the Petrol station allotted to him to AWWA so that AWWA can look after the welfare of jawans. Now what AWWA is going to do with this, I am sure this gas station will give free Gas/Petrol to AWWA.

    Guneet

  136. Suresh February 11, 2009 at 5:04 pm #

    This is what happened a few days ago –

    An AWWA Beauty Parlour and Sales Outlet was to be inaugurated. After many days of hard work, just a day prior to the inauguration, an order was passed that keeping in view the sensitivity of AWWA these days, no officer should be ‘seen’ around at the time of inauguration and that it should be only a ‘ladies show’. BUT should the officers be required suddenly, they should be readily be available. So the three officers including me were directed to hide! LIKE A BLOODY FOOL I HAD TO HIDE BEHIND A COAL TAR DRUM ALONG WITH OTHERS!! PASSING MES AND CIVILIAN WORKERS WERE WATCHING!! I have never felt so ashamed ever before AND NEVER FELT SO SMALL. Such incidents happen every day! I feel so disturbed. There is just no point in serving this organisation.

  137. depps February 12, 2009 at 7:22 am #

    @ Suresh

    Yeah that sounds familiar.

    I used to hide behind the lavatory that too of the institute staff.
    That was 8 – 9 years back. Those were the good old days…
    For all such conditions, the SOP is to take a book, nowadays an ipod and a good camp stool.
    And here I am today, in the land of opportunity.
    Come to think of it, u already have a head start. U were behind a coal drum, I was behind a lavatory. U will go even further in life…:)

  138. Karthik February 12, 2009 at 7:08 pm #

    I’ve followed this discussion for a while. I don’t know if any serving “brasspot” reads this. But if they are, will someone clarify why we in peace do not spend time on live-fire exercises, realistic training etc? Why do we need to keep our fingers crossed in the first 2 months of a CI tenure that we don’t lose lives for want of drills & training? Why do we need to spend 6 months and upto Lakhs of both taxpayers’ and exchequer money organising lavish Raising Days, Ladies Clubs, AWWA at al? Why cannot we be professional? There is a plethora of such questions that can arise now. But I opine that the need of the hour is for the Army to look inwards and create a more professional approach at the Batallion level. Alongside, we surely need AWWA etc to be more transparent and senior officers to be less concerned about the redness of carpets and size of miniature samosas. Why blame them, the system seems to suffer a malaise wherein ACRs depend on even such un-military adventures. Frankly speaking, I have reached a stage when I have begun to despise the very sight of “senior” ladies alighting from Shining Staff Cars to be greeted by other “lesser” ladies seated on plastics chairs, durries and newspapers, as dictated by their heirarchial position on the “food chain”. What a farce! It is as bad a Suresh hiding behind a drum that I cannot voice my opinions in an open forum without anonymity. If I do speak out, for the benefit of all, please be informed that such efforts will be rewarded with a bad ACR, regular “Op-Area” reccees in a hard-to-come peace station and a cold official shoulder. So, faced with such a prospect, both the Officer and wife prefer to suffer short term pitching shamianas and parroting songs rather than spoil a hard earned and rare stay together.

    @ An Old Friend…….Surely, the DSSC grade is the bechmark and we all have to be impervious to “minor” irritations such as AWWA. Such are the demands of the profession, but the point is about making the Army more professional and self accounting. @ Prabhakar Bedi, I’m with you. Simultaneously, this AWWA issue can act as a catalyst for changing a “colonial” mindset.

    @ Guneet…… Whats the latest on the AWWA issue? Is there a court directive to delink AWWA from?

    @ Suresh…. Congrats on contributing actively to enhancing India’s soft power. That also served as a training capsule on Field craft.

    @ Manisha….. good luck with the Ntl anthem. Jai Hind

    ……… We all soldier on. Pl do let me know what u think.

  139. msh February 13, 2009 at 11:57 pm #

    Well hiding of Officer’s and jawans happened in recent Awwa meet helh here too and I know the proper way of how promotion takes place but I was given a lecture on the duties of lady wives for two hours in my comndr’s home hence I wrote so. probably in theory the courses and other things matter but not on practical grounds. Recent trend that has started in awwa and ladies meet is a lady accompanying the waiter to offer drinks to senior ladies, how demeaning is that and I have heard Awwa instruction booklet frobids such ractice but is anyone reading it anymore.
    We had a meet where widows of the war veterans were called and handed some money by senior ladies but sas part was though for the whole function tremendous amount of vehicles big and small were running around no one provided a vehicle for these ladies they spent their own money to come and attend the function. One eighty one year old women was walking all the way uphill to her vehicle as CMP didn’t allow her vehicle to come down till the venue. I gave her a lift in between but no other vehicle stopped to ask her. the vision still is before my eyes. I wish there was some way to tell senior ladies please next time if you call them make sure they are picked up and dropped off too in the proper way.

  140. Guneet Chaudhary February 16, 2009 at 2:26 pm #

    Hi all,
    The next date of hearing is Feb 27. A new set of officers will come for the hearing and name some other organisation or will take a plea that I am not competent to answer this question and it will be adjourned for the next date.
    But I have moved an application in the court to decide only two basic issues.
    1. Is AWWA part of the Indian Army?
    2. Who funds AWWA?
    I am surprised that a battery of officers ( DSSC qualified) ranks of Colonel, Brigadiers, Major Generals and Lt Generals have failed to answer the aforementioned simple questions since June 2006.
    I am planning to request the Court to appoint a Court Commissioner to visit different AWWA’s centre and give his/her report to the Court. Second option left with me is to request the court to ring up any junior most officer of the Regiment/battalion and ask him the aforementioned questions. I am sure he will be able to answer the question which a battery of officer could not answer for more than two years.
    The basic question is that Memorandum and Articles of Association(the foundation of any organization) of AWWA signed by Mrs Chaudhri ( the then wife of General J. N. Chaudhari) in 1966 clearly states that serving officers/Jco’s and Or’s can be incorporated for the functioning of AWWA at all levels. I am surprised, WHY INDIAN ARMY CHIEF DOES NOT GETS UP AND STATES, YES AWWA IS PART OF THE INDIAN ARMY AND WE FUND IT. Nothing is going to happen, no political boss will take any action against him.
    To my knowledge, if AWWA is declared as a part of the Army, it will be subjected to audit and accounting like any governmental fund. The founding members of AWWA had provided for the funding and auditing of AWWA to be done by the ADJUTANT’S GENERAL BRANCH to avoid any misappropriation. It seems to avoid this Army authorities are stating that it is a NGO and not funded by Indian Army.

    In the last fifteen years of my legal profession I have never seen a defendant appealing to the appellant, ( I am reproducing the same here)
    To Quote, “LEAVING ASIDE THE UNSUSTAINABILITY AND UNTENABILITY OF THE APPELLANT”S CONTENTION, WE MAKE AN IMPASSIONED APPEAL TO HIM VIZ: SINCE HE TOO HAS DONNED THE OLIVE UNIFORM IN THE PRIME OF HIS YOUTH AND HE IS WELL AWARE OF THE YEOMAN’S SERVICE DONE BY AWWA TO THE JAWANS, WE LEAVE TO HIS WISDOM AND DISCRETION WHETHER HE SHOULD CONTINUE TO INSIST ON OR PERSIST WITH THE ISSUE WHICH WAS CLOSER TO HIS HEART AT ONE POINT OF TIME AND IN ANY CASE, IS AN NON ISSUE, WHEN IT COMES TO QUESTIONING. HE MAY SEEK TO WITHDRAW HIS APPEAL AND PUT A FULL STOP ON THE ISSUE” UNQUOTE.
    Why fighting the case on merit, rather making an emotional appeal. This creates a doubt in the mind of an educated person, whether serving, retired or a person in civil streets, why this denial? When AWWA is doing Yeoman’s service. SOMETHING IS FISHY SOMEWHERE. Dear friends.
    I will appreciate your comments.

    Guneet

  141. depps February 16, 2009 at 3:15 pm #

    @ Guneet

    Boss, I admire ur perseverance and patience.

  142. Pragati February 17, 2009 at 1:30 pm #

    AWWA seems like a much rotten-kind “pain-in-the-ass” for all the officers who are venting their views in this forum….It is surprising to see so many who were victimized for years but unheard of….. Bizarre!!

    But sincerely, I would like to tell you it is more dishonoring and derogatory shock to the womenfolk who joins the officers as a newly-weds and know nothing about this so-called “NGO”.

    Does the officer marrying a civilian girl ever warn her about the “voluntary service” she will have to forcibly offer to the AWWA so that he scores well in his professional life?? Don’t these officers know what life will be like for the girl they may bring in this stupid hierarchy-seeking environment?

    Is AWWA an NGO?? An NGO employs people for their services….Does AWWA employ…??…NO

    No, because it extorts services from poor junior ladies who are not familiar to this rut and call this a voluntary service…. shameful….yes it is…..Disgusting…well, yes it is

    And later, the senior woman decides whose husband to be given better remarks in his ACR for his spouse’s work for this esteemed institution called AWWA. And the “Yes Sir” syndrome that humiliates soldiers.

    To be honest, AWWA is the most fraud, useless body that uses every bit of military labor, vehicle, resources for the senior ladies to come and show-off their new sarees and jewellery to the “not-so-well-off” jawan ladies and bitch about other “non-compatible” ladies in the station.

    I am a 5-year-old victim of AWWA and its voluntary services…..I am an architect by profession with a good job in hand that accommodates my demands of leave for all these useless AWWA/Ladies club activities?? And I am in no mood to give up my loyal job for these selfish rude ladies who want to extort my labor.

    My husband is posted in 23 Div and I was expected to participate and render my time for this utter nuisance. And when I didn’t, I was mentioned in my husband’s ACR as “a working lady not participating in AWWA/Unit activities” by his CO. Those were the actual words.

    Moreover, GOC’s wife had shamelessly instructed working CO ladies to quit and contribute to AWWA….How can she do this in a democratic free India’s set-up?? Why should someone obey her??

    And the obedient CO ladies had quit and their attitude towards their unit ladies was “if I am not working, how can you”……It’s a fight amongst the forces…imagine how can we ever fight any enemy?? We may even need ladies suggestions towards that…..

    Meanwhile, I miscarried my pregnancy and just a month later, his wife expected me to get involved in the AWWA day celebrations. She was trying to make it clear to me with absolute derogatory remarks. This compelled me to voice the issue (may be slightly late).

    I went through the military law…..I never thought that I would one day interfere in my husbands job since I would not like him to interfere in my job….but army and AWWA forced me to do this….Ladies involvement has over the time became interference….it is insulting to the entire organization….err……disorganization…..is that the correct word??

    May be yes, because an organization that is so impotent that it has to cling to the ladies to drive it through and up can only be termed a disorganization…isn’t it? Officers look forward to their wives active involvement so that they gain brownie points…..isn’t it cheap and selfish??

    The CO is not actually the officer himself but his wife and he is her 2IC…taking instructions and suggestions about how to victimize officers who have non-contributing spouses or what to write in their ACR’s…..It is the lady wearing her husband’s ranks….bringing all the more disgrace to the defense forces…

    And ladies, I ask you…why?? Why do you carry on with these un-meaningful demands and expectations of your husbands and the AWWA?? Do something, study, get a qualification, learn driving, banking skills and equip yourself with computer skills …these will help you later in your tough separation times….not the bloody AWWA…. Why sing AWWA anthems and do useless stuff for which the credit will be given to the senior and undeserving lot….

    I went through a lot last year and I shall soon be posting an official complaint regarding every mistreatment I received with all names mentioned and I will surely not be anonymous. I welcome any suggestions and forums from your side who will address my issue…..

    And of course will wait for feb 27 judgement of Guneet Chaudhary’s filed case….and when AWWA is down in the dust…trust me…..I will pop up a champagne…..

  143. drsubodhkhare February 17, 2009 at 3:30 pm #

    @MAj Guneet
    SIr,
    This is the way they try and emotionally blackmail you.The same was done to me when I had oput up a statutory complaint for accomodation at AFMC.However since my sole aim was to retire from forces I gave in for withdrawl of teh stat.complaint.
    SImilar pleas were taken by army during my case in high court.” We agree thata lot of injustice has been done to the officer but he should take departmental means to seek redressal.It will be freshly looked into etc etc.The court is not the place to bring these issues.
    This is routine crap which the JAG writes and then every one forgets about.
    Any way I dont think AWWA was at your heart anytime in your career (otherwise you would have been MAJ Gen rather than Maj).
    However If I may suggest you may carry on regardless.Army is not averse to perjury, lying,wilful amnesia and is at the best not trustworthy about making statements as very often they suffer from temporary amnesia.
    @ Pragati
    Madam, dont loose your valuable adrenaline for army.It is a mentally retarded elephant crossed with an overfed python.
    You have to ask a simple question to your husbands as tio whom they are married to ? wife or Army.If they are married to army then the wife has to answer him that I can not give my 2 minutes also to my “Souten”.
    If the answer comes that he is married to wife the matter is over.
    When my boss asked me the question why my wife does not atend AWWA function.I answered my wife does not listen to me what can a poor husband like me do?He said you should convince her.I replied “you try it” !!
    Thats it !My wife attended only one AWWA meet in 14 yrs of married life.
    When I was detailed for an AWWA function I made a JCO complain officially that I was not present in the hospital during working hour.That was the end of my AWWA affair.
    I therefore urge you not to waste your energy for AWWA and rather go back to your career.ALl the senior officers are inconsiderate of ladies’career.Two Chief’s of Naval stafs said to me in exact words that my wife’s career is not important.Thats how I realised that I had to fight my case out of realms of forces (in court of Law).You will get same reply.Your career is not important.
    The other way is creat a flap during VIP visit,next time they will not call you.But for that you have to be emotionless apathetic individual.
    Regards
    Subodh

  144. depps February 17, 2009 at 7:21 pm #

    @ Pragati,

    With all due apologies to you, I thought we were done with the problems of service wives after resolving Ms Sangita and Ms Manisha.
    Madam, AWWA was and is meant for welfare – and welfare is for always for juniors. And u are a junior. So what I would suggest is that you should resolve these issues in the unit along with ur husband.
    There is no one who would not listen to you. Even in the worst case, you can call on to the GOC’s wife and put across ur situation and how you find it unable to contribute in the manner desired. The boss is bound to listen to you and provide a solution – that is why he is boss.
    Secondly, I think it is misperception on your part about all those brownie pts and weraing husband’s rank. Even if that were to be true, then also the current situation will change. Nowadays Army does not even give 2 years for some one to stay as Boss.
    Thirdly, Army is a world class organisation – however much we criticize it. I can frankly tell you – that there is no service, which can give a more fullfilling life. But these are some idiosyncrasies – which have either crept in or people who have lot of time in their hand – drive them in.
    Lastly, if ur husband is capable – then ur participation in AWWA or otherwise will not stand in his way.
    Have faith and enjoy life !!!

  145. kul bhushan February 17, 2009 at 9:38 pm #

    Pragati
    You seem to be a bright young women.We all would be proud to call you our sister,daughter,mother,lover and friend.You are the hope of India.I am surprised Awwa is not exploiting your dedication and love for your husband and country.In these times we need strong leaders and only strong followers can make strong leaders.Please work together with other independent autonomous people like Guneet. Nation will do well. RTI Act of 2005 made this all possible .May be soon every january 26 we will study the constitution and throw away the chain of Govt of India act of 1937.Please look at our constitutional legacy of colonial Britain.I am sure in 0 more years we will be a true Responsible citizen democracy,with powerful young and old.

  146. manisha February 18, 2009 at 12:12 am #

    I wear no uniforms, no blues or army greens.
    But I am in the military in the ranks rarely seen.
    I have no rank upon my shoulders.
    Salutes I do not give.
    But the military world is the place where I live.
    I’m not in the chain of command, orders I do not get.
    But my husband is the one who does, this I can not forget.
    I’m not the one who fires the weapon, who puts my life on the line.
    But my job is just as tough.
    I’m the one that’s left behind.
    My husband is a patriot, a brave and prideful man and the call to serve his
    country not all can understand.
    Behind the lines I see the things needed to keep this country free.
    My husband makes the sacrifice.
    But so does our love and me.
    I love the man I married.
    Soldiering is his life.
    But I stand among the silent ranks
    known as the Military Wife……
    what happened with Pragati happens with all of us mil wives at one time or the other. I have seen it happen and have myself gone through this treatment for six years. Boss do listen with a sympathetic ear but noting happens after that. Infact you undergo much worst treatment then before for being the whistle blower, your hubby is harrassed and might get posted out with in a day.

  147. kul bhushan February 18, 2009 at 1:07 am #

    Thanks for sharing the beautiful poem .It inspired me to write again in the same day.Brilliant spouses keeping jobs or just idling will bring our country out of the long sleep it had been for many years .Your posting in this blog is hope of India and by extension of the world.Strong love and bond at home and support of average citizen is the motivation of all citizen soldiers .Thoghtful soldiers are the best defenders in time of war and peace.
    Whole of India is with you.

  148. depps February 18, 2009 at 7:28 am #

    @ Manisha

    Madam
    I do not know why, but every time we mention a name – you just break into a song and dance routine.
    It is not to stifle your “deep felt emotions”, but we already have a “sponsored Bard” (Dr Rao) on this forum. (Actually speaking it has been a really long time – we heard another of Gandhi-Jinnah-Manekshaw Combo ). Hope he is well and disappointment has not taken its toll.

  149. Pragati February 18, 2009 at 8:43 am #

    I feel sorry to see the third largest army in the world struggling with its sets of ethos and etiquettes…it really pinches
    Officers throwing derogatory remarks and insulting openly (even the ladies) have become a usual sight for me…..

    To Depps,
    Grow up….you are living, may be in the 80’s or may be you are not married….
    I suggest go and live a military wife’s life for a day…..and things will be evident to you…you just cant live life in a beautiful shell and expect that there are no muddy waters around….

    Manisha,
    I am glad to have met you here and getting to know that you wrote a prose for the most dreaded issue is even more wonderful….honestly, you have written down a beautiful piece of agonies….
    But be careful, don’t expose your “talent” or AWWA/Ladies Club?FWC might just be waiting to exploit it to the fullest at any moment…..

    Why cant we start an anti AWWA movement where people like us who have no feelings for this “prestigious body” can pitch in and shun AWWA. Im sure with you and whistleblower there are many others just waiting for a signal….rest will follow

  150. depps February 18, 2009 at 8:55 am #

    @ Pragati

    Madam, my apologies.
    Actually to become a wife – there are some practical difficulties.
    I would need a sex change operation. And then to become a military wife – I would need to find a dashing, smart and handsome officer (like myself :) ).
    Anyway, u r also a leader. Don’t leave anybody , no mercy.

  151. Guneet Chaudhary February 18, 2009 at 2:51 pm #

    Hi All,

    CHANGE IS ORDER OF THE DAY. WE HAVE TO CHANGE WITH THE CHANGING TIMES. We must adept ourselves accordingly, otherwise,you will be reduntant for the present times.

    Friends, I have never alleged any thing against AWWA, ( in the court I have highlighted the YEOMAN’S service done by AWWA. I have got nothing against AWWA. I am only against its functioning. Can you call name this activity welfare, if 80% is spent on allied activities and 20% is one welfare.

    Times is coming, when young generation will question you? you have to provide the answer based on facts not on emotions.If things have to be changed, it has to be changed. The day is not far, when Young officer will stand in front of Commanding Officer and will question about the status of AWWA.

    I have got a great respect for the founder members of AWWA. They wanted to create an organization in 1966 for the welfare of troops, I repeat, welfare of troops. But why there is divergence from the basic functioning. Why not AWWA should work on the same principle on which it was incorporated.? The founder members were aware that in the times to come, AWWA will be prone to misappropriation/embezzlement. of funds. keeping in view the memorandum and Articles of Association provided strict accounting and audit procedures.
    It is the era of transparency my friends, Lift the Veil or new generation will tear it apart. If this stage comes Army will become an another civil services.

    Guneet

  152. Zealous February 19, 2009 at 7:58 am #

    @ Pragati and Manisha,

    Ma’ms – Your distress is not understandable.

    I think you are not aware of the SCPC. According to which – if your husband is presently a junior (which I presume he must be – considering your post), he would in course of time – draw salary almost equivalent to a selected rank Brigadier.
    In fact so much so that if he is in one of the innumerable field areas or modified field areas, he would get more in salary than what even a Major General (and possibly a Lt Gen) gets in Delhi. This is not with standing the fact – whether he gets superceded a 100 times, or medically or physically have any kind of issues (God forbid – if there is any). He just has to be there – physically present.
    I have also heard – that AVSC III is coming, through which ranked officer would be finally given status of IAS and at 14 years of service would be made a Major General (equivalent to Jt Secy – since IAS Officers are becoming Jt Secy at 14 years of service)
    So you can rest assured, that financially – you would have almost nil effect on anything. I do not think that you should be unduly perturbed over what is written in ACR or what is not. The piece of paper has no value.

  153. Zealous February 19, 2009 at 8:44 am #

    Ma’m

    Before I sign off, one more thing.

    Next time you think of thanking God, be sure to thank the following gentle man before – who with their bare hands and in one tenure did what no one else could, – moved Armed forces away from meritocracy (whatever was existing – in any case) to aristocracy.
    Gen Deepak Kapoor
    Air chief Marshall Major
    Admiral Sureesh Mehta.

    Defence services will always be grateful to the gentlemen.

  154. depps February 19, 2009 at 11:43 am #

    @Guneet

    FYI.

    Link

    There should be a corruption allowance also sanctioned to army people.

  155. Karthik February 20, 2009 at 2:22 pm #

    The mailaise has to be stemmed from within. Be it AWWA or sahayaks, it is US who have to lay down norms and implement them. WHy cannot we clamp down? As a shorter-term term victim myself, I feel that in an organisation with power vested in the upper ranks, it’s upto them to enforce correctness in all matters. Any ideas, folks? How do we stem the rot? What can we do at our respective levels, whatever they may be….does representation help? Defiance certainly does’nt, but please do comment- lets find ways that have worked, after all, all of you are at different Cantts, so many minds certainly score better than one, lets have it…….

  156. subodh February 20, 2009 at 8:41 pm #

    Dear Karthik,
    FIrst step in correcting any problem is to recognise that the problem exists.We have majority in army who are like the three monkeys of Gandhiji.They see no evil,hear no evi and talk no evil about army.
    Second is when someone clearly shows them the problem they justify saying that there are more problems in civvi street so unless they are solved we have no right to point something in army.
    This is justification like —he has killed a cow so i am justified in killing the calf.
    The babus and politicians are highly corrupt so I can be justfied of being a little less corrupt.
    With this holier than thou attitude can we think of any improvement.
    I believe It is education of officersand OR s about the rot which will improve the situation.
    Hopefully RTI will help in understanding the depth till which this termite has eaten our house.NO point just whitewashing our house superficially.
    Regards
    Subodh

  157. Alagu Periaswamy February 21, 2009 at 5:22 am #

    The main point is that criminals and crooks who have broken the system are too incompetent to “fix” the army. If the IAS lowlives can fix corruption in the entire law and order and administrative hierarchy, then the average Indian can be sure that they have the ability to find and fix the army problem.

    As of now, the behaviour of the IAS vermin only tells us that they will destroy the army from the ground up with their meddling. How about fixing the constitution to provide real equal opportunities for all Indians. The IAS scumbags want to kick up trouble with the army for some reason along with various foreigners with dubious motives.

  158. Guneet Chaudhary February 26, 2009 at 2:57 pm #

    Hi

    What a surprise? no one has visited this sight. or it is disabled.

    Guneet

  159. The Right Way February 28, 2009 at 3:19 pm #

    What is the latest on AWWA RTI? The hearing was scheduled on 27th Feb 09 … i guess!

  160. indian March 1, 2009 at 3:49 pm #

    So guneet, you would get rid of AWWA, AFWWA and NWWA in one stroke. What next. CSD is also a welfare activity. Take it up as your next project. Follow it up with Sports complexes in Cantonments, cable TV in cantonments, movie auditoriums in cantonments, all are for welfare and somewhere or the other have an element of doubt about the source of their funding as well as the use of funds generated. Kill all welfare activities one by one.

    All the best Guneet and all others who never understood the services. Lastly, all these emotions shown here appear to be more ‘wife driven’ rather than ‘service interest driven’. The officers who have ‘not made it’ or could not make it need to be men enough to admit to thier own shortfall rather than blame it on the services or the AWWA, AFWWA, NWWA.

    When I got married, my wife asked me about this AWWA thing. I only advised her that ‘the day you feel that by not contributing to AWWA, it is going to affect my carreer, you have lost the battle with your conscions. So do what you feel is right.’ After 26 years in service neither of us had a problem. And it is not that I have not misssed out on a board or two. But we are happy.

    Jai Hind

  161. rotor March 1, 2009 at 5:24 pm #

    @ Indian
    Bravo ! Now I hear a man in this lot of has been wimps who are actually hiding behind petticoats and feel that AWWA/AFWWA/NWWA sealed their careers. Guys please be rest assured if you have it in u no one can stop u from climbing the ladder. Well spoken Indian.

  162. Logic March 1, 2009 at 10:24 pm #

    @ Indian
    @ Rotor

    I just cant’t get this!! How can anyone be justifying any activity that does not have sanction of the Govt, regardless of how much good or bad it does for the army. The army belongs to the nation and it ought to follow the rules. That so simple!

    What I can make out the biggest culprits are some of the senior officers. If such ‘responsible officers’ behave like this, God save us. Army seems to be going to dogs, or may be, it’s Dogs who have come to the army.

  163. Eats Shoots and leaves March 2, 2009 at 8:19 am #

    innerwear being worn on the sleeve is a pain in the ass to juniors and their spice. no bunch of busybody memsahibs should be let loose on soldiers wives. as bad as holding the wicket for batsmen.

  164. drsubodhkhare March 2, 2009 at 3:25 pm #

    @ Indian,
    Respected sir,
    Despite my wife not attending AWWA,I have been an very upcoming officer.I did not miss any board.Yet I find no justification of something which has no govt sanction nor it is accountable to anyone.
    I had reiterated that If I treat a very poor non entitled patient with anticancer drugs from the AFMSD supply it will bea really welfare activity.But I would be commiting an offence which wil invite court martial.Despite my intentions being bonafide it would be gross misuse of power.
    Why are you then going all the lengths to justify an illegal activity? Is it that you have an inferiority complex of missing a board or two?
    If you utilise your energy to get a formal sanction from govt for the welfare activity like AWWA it may be worth it,at least it will be accountable.
    Can we justify welfare activity done with black money?
    Regards
    Subodh

  165. indian March 2, 2009 at 4:41 pm #

    Khare ji,

    It is all in the mind. Your concsions has to be clear and you have to be tranparent. Your intentions have to be truely for the welfare. Your problen seems to be more of personal ego rather than of the organisation. For every case of unsatisfaction of the affairs of AFWWA, AWWA, NWWA, I can put forward 100 plus cases of benefit and satisfaction from these organisations. Some have rightly said that some senior officers have indulged in over ambitious thinking in these organisations, but that does not mean that the organisation itself is bad. prey, tell me on this very blog there are people pulling down the armed forces, but do you think that all of them are stating all their facts rationally and correctly. Prags would say, two wrongs do not make a right. But then a coin has two sides, you dont throw away the coin.

    Also, you need to differntiate between public funds and non public funds when you decide to use it on welfare of others.

  166. Guneet Chaudhary March 2, 2009 at 5:55 pm #

    Hi all,

    The next date of hearing is March18, 2009.

    Guneet

  167. sandeep March 3, 2009 at 7:34 am #

    @ Dr Subodh, Guneet and Indian (s)

    With all due respect to all,
    Whether u were upcoming or down going, does it make a difference now – or did it ever make any difference any how.

    AWWA is good or bad – it is how we make it to be. It can be a good forum perhaps or it can be a nuisance also at times.

    But it is unique – and it should be improved upon further.

  168. Eats Shoots and leaves March 3, 2009 at 9:53 am #

    srl 169

    freudian slip pl.

    “prey, tell me.. ”

    don’t these alpha w/men have anything better to do apart from ngo_ing, bugging, bothering lowers on the food chain ?

  169. realistthinking March 3, 2009 at 9:20 pm #

    Is AWWA the only issue under RTI
    What about MS branch manipulations or loopholes in many other issues. Move on to real issues that affects officers against the corrupt network scratching each other backs.

  170. Guneet Chaudhary March 6, 2009 at 11:28 am #

    Real thinking,

    Good question, but very reluctantly Army is giving any information about its functioning, the Veil of National Security can cover all the misdeeds of the Indian Army and can shield all the corrupt officers.

    But in coming times this will also come under RTI.

    Wait for that day.

    Guneet

  171. realistthinking March 7, 2009 at 9:58 pm #

    Guneet sir send me ure email

  172. kancha March 13, 2009 at 5:03 pm #

    Dear Sir,
    It has been happening since ages that whenever anyone asks for any type of clearification we make it a personel problem. Maj Guneet has asked for a simple thing “whether AWWA is a part of Army or not? I am not able to understand why no one is giving him this answer . Heart to Heart everyone knows where is the problem but it requires guts to give the answer. We are talking of Heritage , our personel experiences , Missing the boards or clearing the boards and not the real problem. If anyone is trying to sort out a issue it is termed as frustration or some ill will towards the org. No doubt Army is one of the best Organization but still that red tapism is there which irritates the young officers wives and Jawans family. Let me tell one more thing Major Guneet is not against welfare activities, his endevour is to awaken you from the illusion which every person is having once he is in greens and enjoying all the facilities. If you really want to know the real state of all the law abiding Forces personnels then try to meet the retired people who will brainwash you with their school of thought. My request to everyone is to try and know the real issue rather then going hay where. Bravo Major Guneet ————–! Don’t worry about the nin compoops who will never say spade a spade. They were like this ____ They are like this ___ and They will be like this. I have also retired from a very senior rank and I am aware where what is wrong.

    Kancha

  173. Guneet Chaudhary March 14, 2009 at 12:11 pm #

    HI all,

    The hearing is on 18 March. 2009. The documents submitted by AWWA personnel are as follows:

    1. Submitted posting orders of SO AWWA,it shows MS Branch has ordered the posting order of the officer to function as SO AWWA under the COAS SECTT. ( As per the previous submissions before the court, it was admitted by the AWWA officer that it is an NGO and has got nothing to do with AWWA) What a blatant Lie?

    2. Balance sheets submitted shows MISC Expenses of 60 lakhs and Interest on FD’s worth one crores, from where the money came no one knows.( AWWA rep has admitted that ARmy has not given any money). I want to know from where the money came. Every sane and rational officer of the IndianArmy knows the source but AWWA officer is not aware about it.

    I am going to request the court to take on oath the statements of AWWA’s representative so that I can sue them later for perjury.

    Wait for the final orders.

    Guneet

  174. chow March 22, 2009 at 12:06 am #

    @ Guneet,.

    Sir,

    What is the latest after the hearing of 18th March?

  175. Guneet Chaudhary March 23, 2009 at 11:03 am #

    Hi All,

    The Ministry of Defence gave an Affidavit that no funds have been given from either CSD profits or any other branch of Indian Army to AWWA.

    2. No serving officer of Indian Army is posted to AWWA.

    Waiting for the copy of the order.

    Guneet

  176. Guneet Chaudhary March 28, 2009 at 11:31 am #

    Hi Friends,

    The order of AWWA is in most of the News Papers.

    AWWA IS A NGO AND HAS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH ARMY. IT DOES NOT TAKE ANY MONEY FROM INDIAN ARMY. EVEN IF ANY OFFICERS/OR’S ARE ASSOCIATED WITH AWWA, IT SHOULD BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY.

    The needful has been done, know no Army authorities can detail an Army Personnel for AWWA’a job. If it is done it is illegal as per law.

    Still the Source of funding of AWWA and how AWWA an NGO has got offices in high Security Zone like South Block and respective Command headquarters
    remains unanswered.

    Please check The Tribune dated March 28, 2009
    Indian Express dated March 28, 2009.

    Details within a day or so.

    Guneet

  177. drsubodhkhare March 30, 2009 at 8:55 am #

    Dear Major guneet,
    Sir, I told you that the govt can do perjury, willful miscarriage of justice,selective amnesia etc.
    Now this is like a war where you have to clear the territory inch by inch and it is frustrating.EVery lie has to be countered and brought to light.See how many skeletons will come out of cupboards?
    The worst is the more loyal than the king officers who wil try and tell you that you are bringing a disrepute to this finest institution.
    I know you are doing a yeoman duty and you will suffer from these spineless fellows who personally not do anything.
    This type of treatment has been given to all social reformers if you read the history.
    I know it is easy to say keep it up but it is very painful to go through( I have been through it for 4 yrs However that was for personal gains).
    Thats the reason hats off to you since you have no personal gains in it.
    Three salutes to you.
    Regards
    Subodh

  178. Guneet Chaudhary March 30, 2009 at 12:50 pm #

    Dear Subodh,

    Please do read ,’THE HINDUSTAN TIMES” dated March 29, 2009 and it will be published in all the editions of this paper this week.

    Now the question is If Army is not funding AWWA, then what is the source?
    Friends, we will achieve the success but it will take time.

    Patience is my virtue and I have time plan of another five years to reach the zenith.

    Guneet

  179. Eats Shoots and leaves March 30, 2009 at 9:03 pm #

    4 million ESM in a country with 5% of India’s population ?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/veterans-win-fight-for-smart-id-cards-1657028.html

  180. Yeshwant April 1, 2009 at 3:18 pm #

    I vaguely remember some noise about AWWA not being a defence organisation and hence out of the purview of the RTI. So I decided to browse through the posts exchanged on this thread.
    I get the feeling that there is little objectivity in the exchange here. Mostly disgruntled elements of the army who have been passed over for their promotions and spouses who refused to contribute to the camaraderie oftheir units are venting their grouse.
    AWWA has always had noble aims and in the end that should prevail.

  181. Troll Singh April 2, 2009 at 1:42 am #

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvwXoZuIQjw link posted by manisha.

    exposes awwa for what it is ? a charade, and a tatty one at that. lyrics by a “masterji” (edn hav). video editing done by ?commercial firm, with ?which funds. must have benefited widows tremendously. i am sure they are deliriously happy in shergarh, singing the anthem as they pass their days.

    purchased a jacket ex a command level AWWA shop, for Rs 450/-, not only turned out to be pervious to water, the fabric showed its true colours soon. sworn never to buy stuff from AWWA shops in future.

    circa 2005, bright idea – “Run for AWWA”. so come AWWA week, Mrs Bhoop Singhs abandoned their husbands and kids and rushed at the crack of dawn to run, in a, no doubt, spontaneous outburst of affection and enthusiasm for the party cause. parade states were no doubt fwd up the chain of “command”, by those selfless officers, who were donating their leisure time for the good of the organisation.

    who do we seek to fool, and why ? if one wishes to do good, one does not need a forced “welfare”. looking after the tps and their fam, was something ingrained in the role of an offr. ie if you can order him to risk his life, you J well look to his needs, and comfort.

    you don’t need “the old cows” (someone else’s words) looking over your shoulder for that.

    “When thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: that thine alms may be in secret…”

    apropos of nothing, a long time ago, someone, immeasurably more experienced and wiser in the ways of the services than i, pointed out to me that the army had AWWA, the Air force had AFWWA, but the IN had NOWA !

  182. Eats Shoots and leaves April 2, 2009 at 1:57 pm #

    The KWWA drill in Henry VIII’s time:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/henry-viii-the-gadget-master-1658308.html?action=Popup&ino=6

  183. Eats Shoots and leaves April 2, 2009 at 2:45 pm #

    ‘parade states were no doubt fwd up the chain of “command”’

    reminds of the GOC 40 years ago who happened to be a christian and informally asked his div staff to find out how many good christians on posted str. eager to prove their clq, many units gave inflated figures. a small church was built. at the inaugration the faithful were requested to be present. panic and emergency classes held to learn every tom, desai and hari the commandments etc. i particularly liked the 23rd psalm.

  184. Raja April 2, 2009 at 10:43 pm #

    @ Eats

    Ha ha!
    Reminds me of a certain Christmas some sixteen years ago when as youngsters eager to gatecrash into a Christian home for some cake and turkey, we called up a certain KS ‘Macker’, as mentioned on his chest. The fellow apologised, and said that in truth he was ‘Kulwinder Singh Mackar’!

  185. dagger April 5, 2009 at 12:31 pm #

    gentlemen pl remember all those of u who donned the olive green……what u wanted when u came to this glorious org…..i have no problem what AWWA does or from where it is funded to say the least i dont even care…..but what does matter is that does it (awwa)shadow the routine functioning of the army.Everyone here seems to be talkin about perks and priveledges and welfare,, whAT about the primary job a soldier is suppose to do.people try and shierk away by using words like tradition ,chivalary. All due respect to ladies,that fine line must never be crossed , u(ladies) are a part of the org but what goes on in the battlefd u can never know. For heavens sake we need to concentrate on what we are suppose to do .WE are here to be soldiers lets be one.as per my views on awwa…..its nothin but a way to give an ego boost to sr ladies……the husband has made it big!!!!! but whats in it for her!!!!…..u have AWWA!!

  186. condog April 5, 2009 at 7:41 pm #

    the husband has made it big!!!!! but whats in it for her!!!!…..

    uh oh

  187. dagger April 8, 2009 at 9:47 am #

    @ karthik,

    i feel thats its the present rung of sr offrs who make all the difference. somehow over the yrs offrs who themselves are into being un professional and yet pleasing the boss have made it and now its whole lot of them at the top , and for obvious reasons they want ppl of the same group to move up………

  188. Guneet Chaudhary April 10, 2009 at 3:18 pm #

    Dagger,

    When I had joined Army, we were taught all idealistic things. Till today, you visit any Cantonment, you will see big posters of Imandari, Wafadari and Izzat. This is expected from a Jawan or from an Officer, I am not very clear, People in civil street still respect Army Officers but these days are numbered ,with all the things which are happening in Army.
    All those have donned the Olive, where is your courage to call spade a spade. Why putting veil on every thing? Be Bold, be courageous and own up the wrongs.
    Why we are so weak to own that AWWA is our organisation and we provide the sources and resources? No one in this world will stop. But only threat is that if AWWA comes under Army its accounts willbe subjected to Accounting and auditing which is not in the interests of top brass of the Indian Army. This is the only fund which can be used/misused in any way. (In one of the Balance sheets there is a miscellaneous expenses of 57 Lakhs, it is gross violations of accounting and auditing procedures). Fixed desposits are shown in crores but from where it has come no one knows.

    Secondly,I have yet to see a retired Army Officer who is contented with the service he has put in? Even the Army Chiefs are not contented, they are also looking for Governorship of a state or a Chairmnship of Disaster Management Cell or member of Public Service Commission of India.. If they don’t get it they are also cribbing a lot. It is better if we do not touch this topic. Any one who questions the functioning, he is labeld as disgruntled. In reality,It is only the Ex service officers who can find the things hidden under the veil. An average officer is well aware about the functioning of AWWA, from where the funds come? How the funds are allocated? How the Fauji Melas are organised? How the things are purchased from local markets and put for sale in the Fauji Melas by showing it as a product of AWWA. How much resources of the Indian Army are used for these activities?
    STILL ARMY SAYS IT ON AN AFFIDAVIT THAT WE HAVE NOT GIVEN ANY FUNDS TO AWWA.

    The order of CIC clearly states that AWWA is a NGO and not funded by Army. so now if any Respected President of AWWA( only organisation in the History with so many Presidents all over ) passes any order to Army personnel, it is an illegal order in the eyes of law and if sources and resources of Army are used it tantamount to misue of the resources of the defence forces.
    The CIC order has changed the designation of Staff Officers of AWWA and removed his name from the website of AWWA. Bravo.

    It is better to clean the system and invite the wrath of so called hypocritic officials who still ( even after retirement)think that they might be given some decorations or medals for putting the veil on functioning of Army. Get up friends we are part of the biggest democracy of the world not under any Autoractic ruler. The hang over of the colonial past should be put aside.

    Guneet

  189. Eats Shoots and leaves April 10, 2009 at 4:05 pm #

    srl 193

    “some decorations or medals for putting the veil on functioning of Army”

    Yessir, but at least they ought to get the OBN* or at least the OB**.

    * http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=obn&

    [ Please e-mail entries for the Order of the Brown Nose to obn@private-eye.co.uk, £10 paid for submissions printed in the mag ]

    ** Order of the Boot as demo by Karnail Singh / Kaptan Singh

    And
    *** Loyal AWWA officers the KG {Most Noble Order of the Garter}. This
    however, is NOT worn in undress uniform (pl. see Medals Yearbook, Pub Token and QSR etc)

  190. Yash April 12, 2009 at 10:57 am #

    Guneet @ 33

    Guneet, till u were in the Army, u never did anything, that’s why u do not have a sense of satisfaction. the chiefs seeking governorship, has got nothing to do with satisfaction. they have retired at a very young age, and owing to their service in the army are still energetic to assume greater responsibilities.

    there is a big difference between a whistleblower and a cribber. a cribber only finds what is wrong. a whistle blower points at the specific problem, which would lead the organisation to perform better.

  191. Yash April 12, 2009 at 11:38 am #

    Guneet @ 35 & 55

    Guneet, firstly Judges have taken exception to declaring their new worth, so one of your citadels fall.

    AWWA ideally should not have any problems in declaring their assets. it is only courtesy ppl like u that it shies away. AWWA would like to concentrate on its primary task, helping army widows & families in that order. it is surprising u are not aware of the source of funds, and functioning in the army. if u truely are not aware of its functioning, i don’t know what u have done in the army for whatever period u served. if u were married when serving, i am sure ur wife would never have gone to the FWC to educate or help families, otherwise u would never have raised this question. i used to crib a lot when my wife was missing from home and had to cook my own lunch, cause she was out with unit families for trip to local bank (to teach them operation of bank acct) or some other activity. my cribbing was pretty personal because it was infringing on my time as also she could not pick up an employment.

    i would rather say, sixth pay commission shud have added an allowance for the wife’s work in AWWA which she does for free ( i am not sure ur wife was paid to do it ever??)

    what surprises me is the enthusiasm with which commentrators have been writing negatively against an organisation which does not pay its office bearers, because the office bearers are the organisation.

    try finding out from the office bearers of Helpage or WWF how much they are paid.

    so why this crib. grow out of it and do some good for the organisation which made u (which is the only organisation worth its salt today in the country). tell me how many cases for soldiers have u taken without renumeration. or how many soldiers have u helped settle down after retirement. if not suggest change ur focus and concentrate on these issues.

    i am not saying AWWA is the cleanest organisation in the country, but it is better than most of them. the problems will get sorted out by ppl who are affected not by tort kings like u.

  192. joy April 12, 2009 at 2:18 pm #

    Should any good done by wrong means be justified?? The issue of AWWA contribution to welfare is secondary. The primary issue is AWWA’s legitimacy.

    @ Yash

    A jawan who is working in the AWWA outlet is sent on a Temporary Duty to buy goods from various parts of the country. All his expenditures are paid by the Govt including his meals, transport, rail fare etc since he is on ‘official’ Duty. Govt Building, Govt electricity, Govt paid salesmen… I guess you consider all this legitimate…. Why not a few step further and sell off some ammo an weapons and start doing welfare!!!

  193. Guneet Chaudhary April 21, 2009 at 5:28 pm #

    Hon’ble Yash,
    I am surprised to see that such a healthy debate has been changed to personal attacks and I think it is my duty to revert back to you and give you the reply in the same tone , though of course not with happy mind.
    I am sure after serving Indian Army as hard core solider; your mind set must have closed by now to listen to anything against the organisation which nurtured you for such a long time. Ask yourself, Did you ever raise any question? Of course you were asked by seniors a number of times ,”Any Questions” and you were sitting like a moron and shaking your head showing that you had none. You are concentrating more on superfluities than on profundities.
    AWWA was formed in 1966 by Mrs. Chaudhary ( wife of then Chief of Army Staff, Gen J.N. Chaudhary). They had framed its aim, objects and Memorandum keeping in view that as an NGO, it will function as an integral part of the Indian Army. Why after forty two years of its functioning, Army says AWWA is an NGO and has got nothing to do with Army and same stand AWWA has taken that it does not take any money from Indian Army (All these statements were filed in the CIC Court) What is the reason for it? Only funds…….funds………… . As an Army Officer, you must be aware of the source of funds coming in your unit/division/command/corp. Only Sepoy Bhoop Singh can show his ignorance about it. Why not you answer this question?
    You have rightly mentioned that whistle blower points at specific problem, which would lead the organisation to perform better. Sir, in all my submission, I have never stated that AWWA should be banned, only it should be restructured so that it should look after the welfare of war widows, orphans in reality. The balance sheets submitted by AWWA shows clear fudging. I openly state that fund have been misused in the name of welfare by top few. Even the Comptroller and Auditor General of India has pointed out this. You have mentioned that AWWA has got no problem in declaring their assets. Sir, my query was only regarding the Source of funds. I had to wait for three years to get an answer from the Army Authorities. Ask AWWA for not giving me the simple answer.
    If your questions is Why now? The answer is that before 2005 there was no provision under the constitution to ask such type of query from the governmental authorities? This is only due to Right to Information Act 2005, I have the right to question and moved this petition. You ask from the President AWWA, why they are hesitant to share the information regarding the source of funding of AWWA? Why the designation of Staff Officer AWWA was changed over night? And why when every thing is legal , not only the name of Staff Officer but all serving officers were removed from their website( of course after the filing of my petition, and that too on the last date of hearing)

    It seems during your tenure, you had a very microscopic vision, you were more concerned about your own welfare and career. You followed the rut and detested if any one questioned you. Be Open hearted, have the courage to support the right cause, unless you repent later. In the last you yourself had accepted that AWWA is not clean organization and it will be cleaned by the people who are serving it and not by tort kings Like me. For forty years people like you were dancing to its tunes and never had the courage to question it, what you can expect from serving officers whose mouth will be shut by officers like you by putting a veil on its functioning. Try to do something on your own, without the command of any one. You will feel happy and will have long life.

    Finally, you should be bold enough to disclose your identity so that I can give you all the details of Ex servicemen( from Army Generals to a normal Sepoy) whom I have provided and still providing free legal aid for the past ten years. My email address is already there, if any of the Ex-servicemen or even you are in the dire need of any legal aid , please do contact me, of course it is free.
    guneetchaudhary@thejurisconsultus.com Mobile no. 9888100225
    Hope you will have healthy discussions in future.

  194. ASD May 6, 2009 at 10:48 pm #

    AWWA is very much part of army.If our wives are our part so is AWWA

  195. zulven May 6, 2009 at 11:57 pm #

    Dear Gurneet,
    Yes the information you seek is genuine and fine. Your intention of seeking this intention seemsto malign the forces which I feel sad. You could have obtained the information concluded on your findings and then come out with a white paper to the Army HQ.

    Don’t was dirty linen in public…..don’t make us feel ashamed.

    zulven2002@gmail.com

  196. Eats, Shoots and leaves May 7, 2009 at 9:22 am #

    Above -

    1. “Don’t was dirty linen in public”

    Keep it penned in OG Cellular only. No Petticoat Bde please.

    2. “AWWA is very much part of army.If our wives are our part so is AWWA.”

    POW(WA), Chains ILU = Stockholm / Pavlov Syndrome ? Grow up.

  197. drsubodhkhare May 9, 2009 at 9:02 am #

    Dear Maj Guneet,
    Let us ignore persons like Yash who have a coward mentality.I had asked question to a no of my psychiatrists friends as to why do these Loyal than king persons behave in this manner.The answer was simple.They have an insecure mind and they get that mental security in belonging to a group(Indarmy in this case)So they cant tolerate a single word against the group.This is out of fearand insecurity that if someone questions tham that they are serving a corrupt organisation they will fall apart.This mental insecurity makes them go to any extent.They will try and justify that other organisations are more corrupt(I am still in a better company).
    Unfortunately this mentality does not help the group(Indarmy) as nonacceptance of mistake precludes any correction.BUt they keep barkingon every one who shows guts to point mistakes of the organisation.
    Unfortunately an autocratic organisation like army wants everyone to be obidient and thus it stamps out any opposition/dissent in order to maintain the discipline.Since these cowards dont have the courage to oppose they become part of the institution and carry on the rhetoric in an attempt to try and prove that they have the courage.But this coward mentality prevents them from seeing anything wrong(Once you see no wrong the effort of correcting it is spared and the rection following that)This is mental denial.
    So the net is you can not change a sheep into a tiger.
    Let them bark,not to try to change them.You can wake up a person who is asleep but not a person who is feigning.
    MOre later
    Subodh

  198. indian June 7, 2009 at 11:47 pm #

    @guneet
    How can i contact you. I have some shocking revelations related to awwa

  199. Orr June 8, 2009 at 9:57 am #

    On second thoughts the AWWA may be a good restraining influence
    and should be retained: Just in case a local Colonel General (Emeritus or else) seeks to pitch his tent say at the IESL HQ – next to the Chinese and other embassies to Pearl S. Buck the Good ( did it move; P. Hemingway. ) Earth.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090605/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_italy_gaddafi_women

  200. Guneet Chaudhary June 9, 2009 at 12:52 pm #

    Indian,

    You can contact me through mobile 09888100225 or through email guneetchaudhary@gmail.com

    As per the affidavit submitted by AWWA, AWWA is a NGO and has got nothing to do with the Indian Army. Why the organization( Indian Army) which has stated that AWWA is a volountary organization during the recent CCI Court,clearly negates the statement made by Army PIO and AWWA headquarters.
    The document in my possession, sent by a serving Army Officers wife clearly negates the statement made by Army PIO and AWWA headquarters.

    In the pen picture of an ACR of one serving officer, who had done exemplary adm and ops duties, duly awarded by Chief’s Commendation Card for that particular period, it is mentioned that ,” Officer and his wife performance towards AWWA activities was below average”.This has been stated by IO.
    The question is if AWWA is a volountary organisation and an NGO, how come it can make or break your army career. Who has given power to IO Colonel) to mention about the plus and minus points of the functioning of lady wife ( an unpaid employ of the Indian Army) for AWWA in the ACR of an officer.

    This parallel hierarchical channel is going to ruin the career of the hard working officers/men and will promote sychopants( with no professional qualification) to the highest ranks and that will be a disaster for the Indian Army.

    Guneet

  201. An Old Friend June 10, 2009 at 12:40 am #

    @ Guneet
    Way to go Sir!
    Now we are entering into the battle zone.

    I have always maintained that AWWA, AWES, AWHO and the like are peripheral issues which only deflect from the core problem faced by an officer of the Indian armed forces which emanate from the treatment of his annual confidential reports.

    The pure impunity and disdain with which the reporting clique treats the subordinate officers (and their wives) emerges from this piece of power (ACR) and sooner or later, it breaks the spirit of many an upright officer. In exercise of this power on an officer’s career, the lot doesn’t even need to use your (non) performance towards AWWA activities or any other, as a fig leaf to justify the grading given. In fact they need to justify nothing!

    The ACR extract in your possession is pure dynamite. Take the idiot officer (IO) out!
    All the best!

  202. Orr June 10, 2009 at 7:01 am #

    “the core problem faced by an officer of the Indian armed forces”

    But when anyone joins a Convent for life the Dera owner and his missus own the recruit (w)hole and soul forever. Best to ack all centres of power concurrent to career, courses. Back to the exit policy – can a man quit quoting reason ” I’m been bugge(r)ed by the AWWA”

  203. Anon June 10, 2009 at 8:54 pm #

    One thing i am convinced is anybody who does something postive for reforms need to be appreciated. All those who are talking only can never judge what it takes to take up an issue. Even if it was AWWA a lesson has been driven home that RTI ACT matters.Now the bottomline is use of RTI for further reforms. How many are willing to take up issues that can get a Blue Ribbon Commission for our Defence Forces. Maybe Major Guneet can lead the way. Any takers…………….?

  204. indian June 12, 2009 at 12:01 am #

    @ depps 37
    I personally know a couple of officers who made their wives abort as they had conceived girls. How about counselling such officers first. BTW their wives are very active in awwa

  205. Virender Singh June 15, 2009 at 9:05 am #

    @ Indian

    My 2 cents worth… This issue is not of AWWA or for that matter any other central agency.
    Govt has passed a law “pre-natal determination act of 2003″ which covers all the issues related to female foeticide (particularly). Any person inclduing the women – can be sentenced to 3 years imprisonment for indulging, abetting and pressurising any one to undergo sex determination.

    Besides, Bhrin hatya or Kudi – maar as is popularly called in many parts of the country is a crime against the society – It is pure and simple – murder of a human , who is unable for some reason to protect himself/herself and the society has to take responsibility for protection against such individuals.
    As far as concerned people belonging to disciplined services is concerned, this is only a small issue. Lot of people do even worse and they thrive…

    You may further search for PNDT Act of 2002 for more information.

  206. Dolly Parton June 16, 2009 at 7:50 pm #

    More reason to retain, enhance AWWA moderating power/influence:

    [1] Just suppose – if a local AWWA had advised Archduke Colonel-General Ferdinand not to take his missus in an open carriage for a troop review as a treat on the wedding anniversary date there would have been no World War I and also no WW II (Treaty of Versailles signed, anniversary day too.)

    [2] And if Chitra Subramaniam had been advised by Army women not to angle for the Chameli Devi award by ‘exposing’ Bofors, the IA would be better equipped. [ref her 'India is for Sale' book]. Too many angry south ladies not good ji. Take care.

  207. Guneet Chaudhary June 24, 2009 at 2:02 pm #

    All the Learned friends,

    May I request you not to divert from the core issue! Sir/Madam. I never realized that so many officers/lady wives are silently sufferring because of an organization, which is a NGO and has got nothing to do with Army ( as claimed by Indian Army Counsel and AWWA counsel in the RTI Case). The number of emails/letters recieved by me shows that this double standard organization must go, if the status of the army has to be maintained.

    No one is against the welfare of the troops, but there should be transparency in its functioning. What is wrong in following proper Accounting/Auditing procedures? If it is an NGO let it remains a NGO and if it is an organization under Army authorities it should follows procedures. The founding members in 1966 always wanted it to be under the command and control of Indian Army, it is only the greedy, disgruntled manipulators, sycophants and corrupts who as on date states that is is a NGO, so that lakhs of money can be misused as per their likings. Though their number is few, but I am sure now their days are numbered, Countdown has begun and this volcano is going to burst.
    Majority of the officers/families have come to know the reality of AWWA. The day is not far, when an upright officer and his lady wife may take a stand and oppose his senior officer and his wife for not following the unlawful command of working for AWWA. This has already started, three lady wives have sent legal notice to their commanding officers and their wives for the same and let court of law takes legal action against the erring officilas and lady wives. I will apprise you about the legal decisions.

    I was never interested in,as some one rightly mentioned,” LET US NOT WASH THE DIRTY LINEN IN THE PUBLIC”, but now this linen has not be washed but has to torn in the public.

    Guneet

  208. Karthik June 24, 2009 at 10:49 pm #

    Dear Maj Guneet,
    A lot has happened, then? Can you now please tell us what is the latest in terms of the following?
    1. Is there any court directive that PROHIBITS the utilisation of Army resources, either human or material, for AWWA purposes? If so, can you post a copy online, so that it can be used for constructive pruposes?
    2. What is the decision of CVC/ CIC/ Court on the misuse/ non-accounting of AWWA funds? Who are the officers responsible for this mismatch? Is any action to be initiated against them, regardless of serving or retired?

    Meanwhile, we stand by you. Your stand is greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work. God Bless.

  209. UncleChipps June 25, 2009 at 10:43 pm #

    Latest…

    Thanks to Guneet, AWWA is finally dead!! Army has made a subtle agreement that it is indeed an NGO so they are really not part of it.
    Every thing that was AWWA is now simply ‘Welfare Organisation’ to be prefixed by formation name. The senior most lady in the station will continue to give ‘directions’ to SO, AWWA … oops! Welfare Officer.
    And of course, these welfare organizations may seek assistance or outsource their welfare activities to NGOs (like AWWA?) and pay for the services provided!!

    WOW! Was’nt that was a nice one. What now ?

  210. indian June 25, 2009 at 11:41 pm #

    @ uncle chipps
    Thanks to maj guneet a lot of junior officers’ wives are standing up against this welfare organization. the battle’s not lost . This is just the lull before the storm. The day’ s not far away when the seniormost officer’s wife will have none to give orders to. That will be the demise of the demon.

  211. condog June 28, 2009 at 3:00 pm #

    “That will be the demise of the demon”

    Actually there be no escaping Herr Indian Memsahibs:

    Me self left Fauj because Jarnail, Karnail sahibs wives
    bossism bugged. So post release went into business of
    installing machinery, stuff in homes, hotels, offices.
    That’s when I learnt that MD, CEO’s wives or Lady CEOs
    attitude same to same as J,K w’s above to pbor types.

  212. indian June 29, 2009 at 12:02 am #

    i come from a civilian background , was working for 7 years, never encountered anybody’s wife. Same applies to all friends & family. If you are good none would behave badly with you .They are good with you ‘coz leaving is an option & nobody wants a talented person to leave.
    Lady ceo is the boss . how can she be equated wid ur boss’s wife?

  213. condog June 29, 2009 at 8:35 pm #

    Agree to differ pl ?
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Chinese-Whisper/481303/

  214. indian June 29, 2009 at 11:44 pm #

    @ condog 16.
    in civil an employees wife doesn’t have to suck up to the boss’s wife,
    There is no forced socializing or parties where you leave your children at home.

  215. condog June 30, 2009 at 8:42 pm #

    “forced socializing”
    exactly, usain on the head

  216. Guneet Chaudhary July 4, 2009 at 2:13 pm #

    Dear Friends,

    Now, what Army can say regarding this. Watch this video .

    http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_player.php?id=1132344

    Secondly, go to the web site http://www.mailtoday.in dated O2 July, 2009.

    Thirdly, go to http://www.tribune india.com and look for “ARMY OFFICERS WIFE SERVES NOTICE ON COLONEL.

    Friends, this is just begining. I am sure one day things will work out

    Kind regards,

    Guneet

  217. Col (Retd) K P Bhatia July 4, 2009 at 3:01 pm #

    The Army claims that it had no link with AWWA as it is an NGO.

    Then why is that :

    1. AWWA gets involved and interferes into the personal lives of the Army officers.

    2. Influences transfers and postings of the serving officers and the Army chain of command is utilized in full.

    3. Uses Army resources (men, material, command authority, premises, vehicles, transport, etc) in the name of army welfare.

    4. Since the ladies involved in AWWA are all and by default wife’s of serving officers and their positions in the AWWA (without their own personal qualification) are in line with that of their husbands (in terms of position hierarchy), THERE IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST and the whole of army institution is ABSUSED and MISUSED.

    5. When an officer offers and shows respect to his senior’s wife that is part of army culture and should not be interpreted that the officers are subservient to the senior’s wife just because she happens to be (by default) in the AWWA.

    6. Instead of AWWA as an NGO limiting their activities in looking after the welfare of jawans and organizing cultural events they cross their limits and interfere in the family and professional lives of the serving officers like indulging in family breakups, transfers and postings of the serving men. And the ARMY administration wing too is hand in glove and this whole system STINKS. How does one put an end to all of this.

    7. Being in the service, I always had a feeling that behind this organization AWWA, there is a group of service men retd/ serving who are actively involved in its functioning and decision making. There is an ARMY within an ARMY.

    Col (Retd) K P Bhatia

  218. PS July 4, 2009 at 9:02 pm #

    “And the ARMY administration wing too is hand in glove and this whole system STINKS. How does one put an end to all of this”

    End Consoling Prize Sir ? By reading Mahajan’s Satanic verses Book on the IA

  219. An Old Friend July 5, 2009 at 3:48 pm #

    Any Commanding officer who misuses his power over another by virtue of being the sole arbitrator over the ACR should be dealt with in the same manner as the law dealing with the issue of Bonded Labour.

    I hope that the brave lady from Patiala doesn’t get a counter notice from the officer’s sahayak for the tasks assigned to him in addition to managing the officer’s uniform.

    What to do? sahib writes the ACR :-)

  220. Aman July 5, 2009 at 5:53 pm #

    The lady from Patiala has indeed done a commendable job.

    But there are many more who suffer the same agony silently.It is purly a human right abuse which a senior lady does to the younger lot.The moment anybody musters courage to stand up, her husband is either sent away to remote post or is posted out to field area.It is just blackmailing which is going on in almost all the units of army.Right on first day in the unit the new lady is taught by her senior ladies-we have done the same thing now its your turn.So choice becomes very clear-either to keep shut and act on the orders of CO’s wife or remain alone in this organisation with your husband harrassed in every possible manner.

    Till now I was quietly suffering like others but now comments of this blog has given me courage.

    Please help and tell me what can be done.
    Maj Guneet I would like to tell you that it is a great service that you are doing and take it to end.Thousands of people are with you.

  221. tired July 5, 2009 at 6:54 pm #

    also end (a) Ragging (b) Eve teasing (c) Road rage (d) Thuggee (w. UP, e. bihar) (e) Collective peeing on dsoi wall, all other desi walls (reason no great wall of india only remants of g. hedge – pl see book) (f) Capitation fees (g) Don’t care population control policy (h) Court supported q humping, (j) Q jumping (k) IMFL (l) Dinner & supper nights (m) Bagpipes (n) Batmen (o) Duty drawback (p) Inspector raj (q) Right to use rivers as sewage and chemical effluent drains (r) Hafta (s) SHO / kotwal raj (t) Wrong side (opposite to traffic for chrissake) driving by army, airforce men on mobikes, cars also by taxis near delhi cantt – airport flyover (u) Stonewall spanner in the works weapons acquisition policy (v) RMP’s (w) Homeopathy (x) Religion (y) Astrology (z) Pan masala (ai) using spit as lubricant while turning book pages or counting bundles of currency

  222. AA July 5, 2009 at 9:58 pm #

    AWWA was started with a pure motive somewhere down the line it has become a army within a army.There is absolutly no denying that army resources are being used to do the welfare of army jawans wives but also is used to please senoir ladies ,point brought out by Col (Retd) K P Bhatia are correct and relevent

  223. indian July 5, 2009 at 10:17 pm #

    @aman
    i m planning to go to the NCW chief. my story will be made public tomorrow. if you want 2 join the fight against our exploitation mail me at rosmerc @ yahoo.co.in. with maj guneet with us we will def’ly win

  224. Maj(Retd) P D Singh July 6, 2009 at 3:59 am #

    Col (Retd) K P Bhatia’s comments are very correct and there seems to be an Army within an Army creating problems to the serving officers. The best way to eradicate the abuse and misuse of this welfare NGO is to limit the activities of AWWA and its organization structure to be revamped. This can be achieved as below.

    1. The office of AWWA Secretariat located in South Block, Army Head quarters needs to be abolished. This will automatically keep AWWA’s influence and intervention in Army staffing and administration matters at bay there by creating less problems to the serving officers.
    2. AWWA activities to be confined only to the eight regional commands and each to be independent of itself.
    3. The lady members of AWWA should be voluntary and office bearers to be elected and NOT assigned by default or are based on the rank and level of their husbands. The hierarchy in AWWA should be purely on merit and elected
    4. Activities and objectives of AWWA should be only limited to welfare of widows and their children, organizing events and get-togethers and other social gatherings. Housing and investment opportunities may also be included in this scope being part of welfare.
    6. Counseling services may also be extended where need be and be limited.
    7. AWWA should not be interfering into the lives of the Army personnel and their family. There is no need for any parallel body like AASTHA (this to be abolished and scrapped) to redress and interfere, as there are existing civil and court solutions to whom the needed party may approach. This will do a lot good to the parties concerned and there will be no duplication. Moreover AWWA has neither legal authority nor jurisdiction to interfere in personal matters of Army personnel and their family.

  225. Guneet Chaudhary July 6, 2009 at 10:34 am #

    Dear All,

    Log on to http://epaper.mailtoday.in/Details.aspx?boxid=12728687&id=25068&issuedate=672009

    find out the details your self. Things have started. The best recourse for the Army is to restructure AWWA for its own benefits.

    Guneet

  226. Guneet Chaudhary July 6, 2009 at 3:32 pm #

    Dear All,

    Watch this

    http://epaper.asianage.com/ASIAN/AAGE/2009/07/06/ArticleHtmls/06_07_2009_005_005.shtml?Mode=1

    The Asian Age.

    Guneet

  227. Parmeshwar July 6, 2009 at 6:39 pm #

    The points suggested by Major (Retd) P D Singh to revamp AWWA is fantastic and an absolute must. In addition to his suggestion the Army should immediately constitute a review committee and look into all the decisions taken by it in the last 3 years that were influenced or instigated by AWWA relating to staffing, posting and transfer matters and all other matters affecting the serving army person’s career and revoke such decisions taken.

  228. karthik July 7, 2009 at 2:16 am #

    Even as the US and UK Armies demonstrate their global capabilities to the world, this fiasco really cuts a sorry figure for the Indian Army. What a towering shame this is! What will the outcome be? Is there going to be an institutional change?
    It is the mindset of the senior officers that needs an overhaul. I completely agree with Col KP Bhatia’s suggestions. But may I add that the Educational qualification of the Lady members must be taken into account to decide their “employment” as office bearers. It is a fact that the bulk of the “senior” women who have caused problems concerning AWWA are not really well read in any sense, being either high school graduates or having done a correspondence BA/ B Ed. The immaturity and inborn intellectual handicap of such pompous women endowed them a feeling of high handedness. Indeed, a part of the malaise arose from the fact that they despised the younger lot who were mostly better educated and were gainfully employed in enviable environments in the corporate world. There is no dearth of well educated and sensible wives in the younger echelon (CO level and below), as well as (sadly), a marked deficiency of the same in the older generation. Thus the clash of egos, hence the stomping of pseudo-authority, therefore the ridiculous scene today. I’m sure there are some “senior” officers here. You gentlemen can use the comfort of anonymity to reply here and endear us with your views.

  229. indian July 7, 2009 at 4:44 pm #

    The vice chief has assumed the role of saviour for all bby sapper co’s. he’s assured the 2 co’s of no action against them.
    I request more ppl to come up wid their experiences to succeed in this drive.

  230. tired July 7, 2009 at 5:39 pm #

    A solution is:
    All military spouses /spice must automatically be granted / gazetted / share / wear partners rank ; get same perks, privileges, suchlike powers.

    example (a)
    The US Military buries currently honorably buries veterans and their wives / husbands in the same two tier graves at Arlington ( check that out ). So reasonable for AWWA members to strut their stuff to the end.

    example (b)
    Yus and if Archduke Ferdinand had not got shot on 28 June 1914 when he took his beloved wife Countess Sophie Chotek to a military parade – arranged specially by him – so she could be ceremonially entertained on their wedding anniversary ( married 28 June 1900 ) there would have been no WW I. Also WW II.

    War and Piece

  231. indian July 8, 2009 at 10:58 pm #

    I am a doctor & offered my services for free to the pbor’s wives. but the first lady was more interested in my dancing skills & lack of singing knowledge & forced me to attend these pratices. I was made to shop in the sun the whole day with a 6 mnth old & a 2 yr. old child. There are so many such eg of harrasment. How long can one take this. ?
    We have to speak up & the time is now

  232. AA July 8, 2009 at 11:19 pm #

    I have experienced it first hand.Jawans wives are told to arrange cultural programes like singing and dance for entertainment of visiting officers wives even though there are clear directions from the Army chiefs wife that no such prog is to be organised but its sycofancy at its best.
    Army buses are used to ferry them to the avenue,army combat waiters are made to serve drinks and tea etc and army guard is deployed in name of security -plz confirm this fact from any jawan officer.
    Also practice for these programs take months together for which jawans wives have to leave their children behind unattended and also they are unable to cook food for their husbands and their houses are also unattended.They are also threatened with orders to vacate the house allotted to them if they do not participate,even though this threat is not valid for officers ladies they are in turn socially declared outcast and other such pressures are borne on them.

  233. indian July 8, 2009 at 11:33 pm #

    @AA
    How ’bout emailing me.

  234. Guneet Chaudhary July 11, 2009 at 12:19 pm #

    Dear All,

    Please see” Mail today” dated 10 July, page 16. You can log on with the following attachment.

    http://epaper.mailtoday.in/epaperhome.aspx?issue=1172009

    Battle is on and the dirtly lines is being surfed every day, till the people wake up from their sleep.

    Guneet

    • Pragmatic July 11, 2009 at 5:31 pm #

      Dear All,

      Let me clarify that Pragmatic Euphony is a blog hosted on the Indian National Interest platform and is in NO way associated with Major (retired) Guneet Chaudhary. The article in today’s Mail Today linking this blog to Guneet is completely wrong and baseless. What Guneet and other commenters have been doing are just commenting on a few of the blogposts using the comments facility available to them. To avoid any further confusion and misunderstandings, I’m stopping comments on these blogposts with immediate effect.

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