…to prevent incidents like Malegaon, says Major General (retired) Afsir Karim.
In a wide-ranging interview on secularism in the Indian Armed Forces, Major General Karim answers the most pertinent question facing the defence services today —
How do you prevent incidents like this where army men get involved?
Yes, it’s extremely important to prevent such incidents in future. There should be strict vigilance in the army. In the last 10 years a lot of communal divide has taken place and we have to win away these people who are affected by communal thinking.
It’s not difficult in the army. The regimentation is quite good if it’s properly enforced. If your senior officers are weak, only then is the army in trouble. It is the CO’s moral authority and discipline that counts. The senior officer has to be secular to enforce the same sentiments in his junior officers. By and large, Indian jawans are extremely secular.
…But, society is changing. There will be an effect on the army. We should take greater care. There is no need for alarm. In the army you are not made to feel like a Hindu or a Muslim but the army man of the regiment you belong to. I have never felt as a Muslim in the army. I belonged to my regiment being an Indian. I think if the senior officers are proper, nothing will happen to the Indian Army.
Today it is not only up to the Senior Officers – it is also up to the elected govt and the media to ensure that the military is isolated from mainstream politics. The soldier is no more ‘cantonementised’. He ie seamless with the other natives and would also feel with their pulse.
Give him or suggest or implicate him towards a direction and he will move thereto. At one time many Chambal Dacoits were Army men gone AWL. Today with politicians stopping at nothing and Babus at their worst the Services cannot remain like the Three monkeys (see no evil, hear no evil, talk no evil type).
The delay in the resolution of the scpc anomalies, the trial by media, degradtion and the deviuos undercuurents created for a purpose will take its toll on the efficacy of Defence forces. Many have not understood the rhetorics’ expressed here. The Military crosses the line conned by the rhetoric – now you wan6 him to rationalise. A dangerous propositon because he may start rationalising crossing the red line.
@menon,
U were doing a service for which were not only paid then and but are paid now also.
Do not try to create imaginary scenarios. Ppl took oath towards constitution, Not towards ppl like u. They do know where their responsibilities lie.
nice of gen karim to have penned this article…while the role of offrs,both senior and junior can not be over emphasized, i would like to put across a few more suggestions..fitstly, at the intake stage, there is a need for extreemly strict police verification.. to the extent that if an indl’s connections with terror or fundamental outfits prior to joining are proved then the concerned police offrs be taken to task. (we are aware of the prac of bribes for police verification and this must stop). secondly,at the SSB stg there has to be some psychological tests incorporated to identify such traits if any and then at the trg centers and academies there should be adequate checks and balances to identify inds with such traits. we must also have trg incorporated to sensitize the environment from falling pray to fundamentalism,.if the defence forces can effectively motivate indls to lay down their lives for the nation during trg then i am sure we can surely trg them no to fall pray to subversive elements after being part of forces..cheers
Dear all,
More than the officer’ s own responsibility the system also had some errors .Correct me if I am wrong
lt Col Purhoit was through NCC entry, did not go through routine SSB. Psychologists test. There are now so many entries that it is impossible to have same NDA/IMA/ OTA ethos over a full period as a cadet gets.
Also so long he was in a regt he was under check of CO. When he switched over to int, the job profile is totally independent. Nobody bothers him in fact there is a general hatred/feeling of loathing when a int chap comes visiting the unit as if he is snooping around regt/unit routine functioning. So bottom line is these chaps are left on their own. That is when he probably got involved with religion fanaticism which was not noticed when he was as a cadet/officer under SSB/later CO. Int Br /Agencies has to have a serious relook of thier own working and accountablity.
Lastly lets us stop tarnishing image of Indian Army. Every Org has its share of bad apples/who beat the system checks and balances . More than Lt Col Purhoit who has already done the damage, it is the media now sensationalizing the word ‘Lt Col ‘ for their own TRP ratings.
I also agree with most that we have to get a real insight thinking the way we are going as a society only and it is the Country culture that needs a re look which seems to have gone off the track in last decades. Armed Forces are part of that society which is now getting leaders like Raj Thackery/ VHP/BJP/Shiv sena/ etc. getting communal divide for votes.
A resolution must be passed to senstize Armed Forces from relegion and political groups.
Gen Karim is a senior veteran who is respected by all in the Services
beause of his pragmatic & frank views on subjects which to some may be too sensitive & contrversial. He is absolutely right that the CO has to be above board & then the jawans will do likewise. Army has always been secular & one is an Indian/Regimental loyalist first & then is the religion, & as also very correctly brought out, officers’ religion is that of his men he commands. Without this they will never be able to command their respect. This is vital when in command.
Menon’s views cannot brushesd aside with contempt as Depps has done, there are a lot of hard facts in what he has put accross & these are not just imaginary scenarios. Is it not a fact that the Services Cantts are much more open to civilians than earlier, this apart, the telecommunication & electronic
media blitz of the last 2 decades has exposed the service personnel to the
world events including national many many times more than earlier.Further, post Sixth Pay Commission the print media specifically has been targetting
the Services as never before . Regretably, even notable writers respected even in the Services, Kuldip Nayyar & Inder Malhotra, chose to find fault with the actions of Chairman Chiefs of Staffs Committee & the other 2 Chiefs, which were to represent to the Appropriate Authority, the grave anomolies which were not resolved by the Committee of Secretaries. Had this not been done, immense harm would have resulted in the pension of the jawans/airmen/Naval ratings, numbering over a million, reduction by 25 %. They are the only category of all Central Govt employees who retire in the age group of 35-40. This was very reason why they were given pension at higher rates than others, by the 3rd,4th & 5th Pay Commissions & 6th PC gave no reasons for this massive reduction, it only said,” they can be placed in BSF/CRPF, an issue which is contested by the MHA.This was along with 3 other anomolies which have operational implications apart from reduction in status of Lt Gens & Lt Cols. CAT has upheld the erstwhile status of Lt Cols, it being senior to those who have upgraded by the PC. Such were the seriousness of these anomolies & if the Chiefs collectively did not represent to the PM, the final authority, they would have lost moral right to ear the respect of the Appointment they hold.
To make matters worse, MOD has introduced SEVEN more anomolies while issuing the final Govt orders, these 7 were not even recommended by the 6th PC.
Thus their actions were totally justified & if Menon has made a mention of it he cannot be told”U were doing a service for which were not only paid then and but are paid now also.”This is nothing but absurdity & ignoring the
reality.Depps has shot of a missive without appreciating the nuances of the grave issues mentioned by Menon
The suggestions by O Dragon are noteworthy & merit serious consideration because what has been reported even if partially true, is a very very dangerous matter. The Govt & political parties must cut accross party lines & in consultation with Services, have the issues studied & bring out the desired changes. What the Services can do in house must also be done but in the overall scheme of policies of the Govt so that the changes/procedures are comprehensive & effective. Also, there should be a deadline, with no extensions, by which the study should be completed. It should to start with have represntation from MOD,MHA & the Services, thereafter it can be circulated to others including BSF & CRPF, their personnel too are similarly placed, before taking the final decision.
Such a serious issues needs calm & comprehensive analysis & corrections & every suggestion made be looked rather than brusqely consigning it to the dustbin. Maturity in handling such a case is the need of the hour.
I don’t think the Army need worry too much about its reputation and the media hype. The Forces need not bother about the media glare ‘cos they have nothing to be ashamed of.
What is more important however, is that the Purohit fiasco must be taken as a wake up call and the army must set its house in order. How was Purohit allowed to get involved in terrorist activities? Didn’t he report to someone?? What were his bosses doing? The media reports that Purohit was quite vocal about his stand and his colleagues were aware of his political and ideological philosophy..then why weren’t the warning signs seen? how did this fiasco happen?
I hope the Army takes appropriate action against those responsible instead of passing the buck or giving excuses for this lapse.
@ depps
U were doing a service for which were not only paid then and but are paid now also.
Going by your logic would you ratify it if one of your congeners resorts to prostitution and says that after all it biological act with a monetary perk thrown in. I am sure they have also taken an oath towards morality and such ‘rhetorics’ do stand good.
Incidentally there are some like you who pop in to yelp. Avoid.
Indian Railways shows how it’s better that the Indian A..
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20081113/punjab1.htm#11
Dear All,
Rotten apples are every where. But we don’t go overboard when it comes to the other services.We don’t yell to disband our police and officialdom for faults of individuals. Our committed media cannot claim any moral right to be the self proclaimed fourth pillar of democracy. It is sad to witness the discussions on channels by people who have no knowledge of the forces other than travelogues. The nations military is so large that you will have such cases and more. They have their own procedures to set these right and take corrective action. The soldier is no longer isolated from society in this modern age. He fully understands the political compulsions and hypocrisies displayed by all.It is better to leave it to them. In 1984 when armed mutinies took place it was attributed to the “hurt sikh psyche” and the media was full of sympathetic commentators. Yet the army went about lt professionally and dealt with offenders in a very fair manner. Though many of those punished were later pardoned by the Govt the message had gone home. There were few cases of false alerts also at that time which resulted in severe mental hardship to those affected.Still the Army came out of it successfully. The over bashing of the army is going to be highly counter productive in future. Even during Kargil there were reported cases of men and officers refusing to endanger themselves. Let this not turn out to be another witch hunt like the Samba spy scandal. If this trend of military bashing by media and the babudom continues this Nation will regret it very soon. Let us hope better sense prevails.
Hi Menon..et al…well said general to start with..then many good notes.. enough enjoyed babudom..policia..now military.. as simple..forces are secular and will remain so..like one odd honest babu..or neta..there can be one odd such aberrations.. military has to be highest paid organisation..ofcourse with ijjat and parity with civil.. and @depp.. right you’re..paid in life..paid after life..is what military all about..
@menon
Did u mean that all the time that u were working for ur employer, u had prostitution in mind.
Since u all ppl like RK, menon and others just talk without any facts and are just throwing emotional tantrums (just to get something more out of ur employer) . I am yet to see any talk abt SCPC which has any fact with it. Pl do enlighten me if at all I have missed some thing.
And why worry abt Purohit Sahab. He was just a small time guy (who actually got caught by ATS (not ordinary police) and not by any one of his colleagues). Even those ppl who get sorted out like GI Singh, Booze Brig, Ketchup col, petrol col, etc etc are those who are caught by outside agencies. Infact A/N/Af are the ones who silence these issues. So there is no holy cow here. When ur own retd gens are going to politicians of all hue and colur like Soni, Yechury, etc and when some are openly saying (while in service) that they are joining BJP, then why target one small time guy and call him aberration. He was just an exception to the rule (the rule being don’t get caught) and he got caught.
@ depps
Did u mean that all the time that u were working for ur employer, u had prostitution in mind.
Now you don’t want to talk about morals. Are you sure you know what you are writng or thinking.
@menon
I thk u did not read the rest. I am very much talking abt morals only. It seems that u want to talk abt other activities (pleasure or otherwise)..
Also I am surprised that u compared service to pros… I thought u had been trumpeting virtues so far… In any case both are among the oldest professions…
Easy Man!! Depps
In any case both are among the oldest professions…
Such comments leave a lot of scope for stinging repostes, but we are not here for that. Are we?
@depps
Please do not take word of some posters on the web seriously. Many are by nature rabid rabble rousers, who have nothing positive to contribute, and would blame everyone else for the difficulties, real or imagined, they face. They see other people who have a different opinion as enemies to be vanquished. They may be psychologically damaged, and if present physically, could turn unduly aggressive. They do provide some dark entertainment, but blacken the spirit at the same time.
@ depps
I was talking about the differences between your values and that of the Services .
The Pros & Cons respectively..
@realist #4
Purhoit was through NCC entry, did not go through routine SSB. Psychologists test. There are now so many entries that it is impossible to have same NDA/IMA/ OTA ethos over a full period as a cadet gets.
An interesting insight if true. Do they really get to avoid the SSB? And he joined OTA for 8 odd months!
You could have a point there. Though it does not absolve his immediate superiors/ colleagues to notice anything amiss, provided he had hinted his bent of mind.
Of course, it is not to berate any entry stream, but even in a corporate environment, one does come across such cases.
Again, the case against Purohit are just allegations, as of yet.
And rightly said, lets get the ‘Lt Col’ thing off because it is a prefix shared by many officers who had done great for the country.
Rajyavardhan Rathore comes to mind at this moment.
@ Menon
No sir. U were not talking about my values. You were talking abt my congenrers. .
But no sweat sir. I have seen many of you .In fact too many of u in the service. That is why I said that Purohit Sahab is not an aberration. But actually an exception. Not that everyone is communal minded.
But there are other ways and means to provide distinguished service. If you or rohit think, that you still want to talk abt morals. Please let me know how many cases you want to read of morals of distinguished ppl.
Just so u know, getting personal is easy. I am quite sure that menon sahab would not have ever got his DNA matched with that of his known cogenrers.
@ depps
If you are unsure about your ancestral lineage please do visit the National Geographic website. For $500 they will send you a kit by which you will be able to trace your mitochondrial eve DNA map. Hope the results don’t shock you but you will get to confirm which part of Africa your ancestors originated and their route to the present strain (is that word okay for you).
Happy self realisation!!!!!!!
@Depps,
I forgive you
Dreedle has also agreed to commute the sentence on Danby / Depps.
Depp,
i feel u have something against the armed forces.
while i do not support Purohits action (remember nothing conclusive has been found till now, and new frivolous cases are being framed to keep him in custody). but i do agree, u cannot shield any organisation from the decaying moral values prevalent in our society today. fanaticism, corruption are just a few of them. the defence forces have to be commended for holding out for so long. even now among all the indian organisations (the best or the worst) they still hold out as the best. let us be positive and appreciate it rather than purposefully find faults which have no basis.
and depps seeing ur language either u r in the services, or a paki trying to add fuel to the fire. i am asking u how many cases of poor moral values do u know and how?
personally i do not think this malaise (if it is proved) in the armed forces, the issue is being created primarily to create confusion in the ranks of the army. (who gains if the army starts a witch hunt) it is for all to analyse.