Shekhar Gupta is right

In his column in the Indian Express, Shekhar Gupta makes the same points that have been drummed over at this blog continuously. He has got it right on the implications of these actions on the services for the future.

But now, for the first time, these incumbents have stood in defiance of civil authority as no military chiefs have ever done in India’s history. And howsoever genuine their grievances over the pay commission — as they seem to be — they have set a precedent that future generations of Indians, and even their own successors in years to come, will come to regret. Their decision to not notify the cabinet order on the pay commission was unprecedented and shocking. True, they were cheered along by the increasingly vocal community of ex-servicemen, many of whom harbour long-standing, deep and justified suspicion of the bureaucracy, and who were in turn egged on by one campaigning TV channel, Times Now. They saw this pay commission as one more too-clever-by-half effort by the babus to push the military a peg or two lower in terms of both money and protocol. They weren’t entirely wrong. But was this — the three chiefs turning themselves into a group of defiant trade union heads — the only way to handle it?

The brass may now think they have won a famous victory, with a very weak Government conceding most of their demands. But today they do not see the damage they have done in the process to their own fantastic tradition and institutions. The soldier’s usual contempt for the political and bureaucratic classes is not entirely misplaced. They are all the terrible things the soldiers believe them to be: cynical, scheming, vindictive and so on. And by this incredible public show of defiance they have exposed more than their flanks to future assaults from those two classes the moment a stronger government, a half-way effective raksha mantri step in. Soon enough, there will be a civilian riposte, and unfortunately it could take away from the armed forces and their future chiefs some of the autonomy in decision-making, even small purchasing powers, that they have won in tiny parcels in a six-decade war of attrition. This pay commission episode will now be invoked by stronger governments, and certainly better defence ministers — as almost anybody would be after Antony — to “cut the brass to size” with the argument, “remember how they behaved over that pay commission? And it wasn’t even Thimayya, Manekshaw, Sundarji, P.C. Lal or Tahiliani.” The curse of this pay commission will hang over South Block for a very long time, until the emergence of some inspirational trinity of chiefs and, even more importantly, a visionary, strong defence minister, who can somehow signal a new beginning.

…A.K. Antony’s handling of the pay commission issue has been pusillanimous to say the least. As defence minister, he should have fought for his armed forces and got them their due from the pay commission in the first place. But, having failed to do so, he absent-mindedly countenanced trade union-like activity within his brass. He agreed to accept a memorandum from the three chiefs together, and somebody even invited TV cameras while he did so. Some platitudes were spoken, and the entire country got the impression that the soldiers had been done in by the pay commission and now the three chiefs and their minister were all fighting for them. This, I am afraid, smacked of some kind of “industrial action” rather than the subtle, skilled management that our higher defence establishment demands. Its consequences will be far-reaching and long-lasting and could leave the institution of our apolitical military seriously dented.

And at LiveFist, Shiv highlights the damage done by the infighting among the various ex-servicemen groups. The temptation to head the proposed ex-servicemen welfare board of the government is too strong to resist for these retired generals, air marshals and admirals.

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145 Responses to Shekhar Gupta is right

  1. Anshuj October 5, 2008 at 1:16 pm #

    The temptation to head the proposed ex-servicemen welfare borad of the government is too strong to resist for these retired generals, air marshals and admirals.

    In this country ,the temptetion to contnue as PM drives an intellectual into the buisness of MP trading.
    Why target lesser mortals for a bonafide aspiration ?

    @ Guptaji.
    Transformig journalism into buisness.
    Invest only in the ventures which gives you max returns.

  2. pulverizer October 5, 2008 at 2:04 pm #

    ouch that hurt

    thanks anshuj for your pithy comments

  3. Shankar October 5, 2008 at 2:14 pm #

    Shekhar Gupta is bent on sabotaging the Ministerial Panel. He has called Antony worst defence minister just because he has taken the issue to PMO.
    After all he is the first to know how many coffins arrive from J and K week after week.

    Antony is a brave man.He has done his bit. He is also a member of the panel to fight to the finish.This piece of Shekhar Gupta is to sabotage the efforts of Antony .When Babus have found the matter going beyond them they are fronting Shekhar Gupta to bat for them.

    Shekhar Gupta need not worry about any future Babus or Minister putting the brass in their place. They dare not. After all who are going to rescue trapped miners,floodvictims,restore law and order,fight militants?
    The armed forces are irreplacable and it would take ages to build the morale which has been shattered by the recklessness of the Babus and insensitiveness of the Government.

    It is not the army of the old where there is no communication.Today the power of internet can ensure that injustice is highlighted.If the present Chiefs are forced to quit there wont be anyone willing to take their seats.
    The issue is one of status and it is felt by every service personnel.
    I know that Indian express is always lagging behind in media because it has no news channel of its own. Efforts to tie up with ND TV has not been fully succesful except for walking the talk with the famous and not so famous.
    So Shekhar is utilizing this opportunity to take on Times of India ,whose TV channel timesnow has become the No 1 Channel in English Tv Media.

    Shekhar you need to carry your fight directly,Pray do not use the army men to vent your feelings towards a succesful competitor.
    Indian Express must know that the main opposition party has understood the issue better than him and would be more Pragmatic than Pseudo Pragmatics and Crusaders of Journalism.

  4. raj October 5, 2008 at 2:32 pm #

    This time he is partially correct.. but for the following

    “But was this — the three chiefs turning themselves into a group of defiant trade union heads — the only way to handle it?”

    With anomalies of one pay commission not getting resolved till next and then more anomalies getting added in the next one…. this was the only way out of this vicious cycle… I never understood the logic of calculating Grade pay based on the last pay of the band rather than its starting pay…(maybe it suited IAS pay scales better than any other service and I am not just talking about defence.. I can post entire grade pay logic and scale of various services if desired so)

    “But today they do not see the damage they have done in the process to their own fantastic tradition and institutions”

    Traditions are to be changed as time demands… democracy requires every stake holder to speak out his feelings

    “Soon enough, there will be a civilian riposte, and unfortunately it could take away from the armed forces and their future chiefs some of the autonomy in decision-making, even small purchasing powers, that they have won in tiny parcels in a six-decade war of attrition.”

    It won’t be a personal loss to anyone.. finally the country has to decide what it wants…

    “This pay commission episode will now be invoked by stronger governments, and certainly better defence ministers — as almost anybody would be after Antony — to “cut the brass to size” with the argument, “remember how they behaved over that pay commission?”

    I think a govt will be strong only when it is able to understand pulse of this country (including forces) and such govt will never play to the tunes of these babus… Babus should see the writing on wall… enough is enough they can’t cheat every other stake holder of this country for their own benefit.
    A few good ones that are left in this rotten lot should come out strongly and be assertive else chaos as we are seeing around us today are going to be norm in future.. maybe India is future Afghanistan in making..

  5. shaan October 5, 2008 at 2:33 pm #

    Well said, Anshuj!

  6. Anshuj October 5, 2008 at 3:25 pm #

    The finest examples of that commitment are the two war memorials that have been built, in Pune and Chandigarh, with contributions of nearly Rs 2 crore, raised entirely by the readers of The Indian Express and, indeed, members of its staff.
    @ Guptaji.
    You are a true buisnessman wasting your time and talent in journalism.
    See,you still remember the exact amount you had to spend on unproductive rituals like erecting war memorials.
    Please go and take back those memorials and covert them to
    “Indian Express” vending kiosks,but for heavens sake don’t rub salt to the injured sentiments of soldiers.

  7. Prakash October 5, 2008 at 3:40 pm #

    @ Pragmatic.. Trust Shekhar Gupta and Pragmatic ( ONLY TWO OF THEIR KIND) to think alike..

    My dear Pragmatc very conveniently you have ignored to highlight this from the extract of Shekhar babu
    “”"….You ask the people of India to choose between the political class and the soldier, and the latter will win 95 to 5…. “”"

    And just like you.. Mr Shekhar Gupta also had conveniently forgotten (while writing editorial) to tell the world that it’s not “will win” and it’s not “political class and soldier”……but the truth is that Indian Express carried out a poll with Question… “” Have Service Chief’s Set a wrong precedence by not obeying cabinet decision??”

    In this poll, people of this country voted in favour of Service Cheif’s 95:5… So when he writes ‘ Latter will win 95:5” its actually Service Chiefs have already won in that poll which he doesn’t want to declare.. … and also the question as per poll was not “political leader and soldier” but it was the act of Service Chief’s which was not given a negative word by people on the street…So its evident that nobody in the civ street found this act wrong or defiant…

    I should also mention here that heights of Biased attitude.. Ind Exp jahs not even declared the result of the poll anywhere coz they know people have shown them the true value…..yellow journalism….

    Secondly, CNN IBN also conducted a poll with Question “Was this act of services should be considered as arm twisting or rebellious??” .. This also was voted by the people in favour of Services as 74:26…

    .. Now As we say in Hindi..It’s evident kee “Akal Badi kee Bhains”.. ?? or should I say QED….

    So ,, Mt Pragmatic I once again repeat that I dun think so what Shekhar gupta or Pragmatic think is right but it’s what ALL of us think is RIGHT….

    Prakash

  8. voyager October 5, 2008 at 4:06 pm #

    Ah, I was missing the Guptaji / Indian Express articles.

    I like it that he’s acknowledged some sort of wrongdoing in that he writes…

    “And howsoever genuine their grievances over the pay commission — as they seem to be…”

    It needs to be understood that what these four mavericks (Hon’ble Defence Minister and the three Service Chiefs) are saying are not individual thoughts but the collective voice of over a million people who have no individual freedom of speech unlike Mr Gupta.

    If the grievances are “genuine”, what was the better alternative to get a redressal? The article is silent on that!

    Here is something to cheer up the Hon’ble Defence Minister and the Service Chiefs….

    “If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you;
    If you can dream–and not make dreams your master
    If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools;
    or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, and stoop to build ‘em up with worn-out tools;
    if you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue;
    …yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it.”

    ~ Rudyard Kipling

  9. abc October 5, 2008 at 4:35 pm #

    @Pragmatic quoting Gupta ji

    But was this — the three chiefs turning themselves into a group of defiant trade union heads — the only way to handle it?

    I guess there was another way. The way Primus inter Pares, IAS guys, did it. Cheated the cabinet and indulged in thievery. Read the story from the latest issue of Outlook.

    Excerpts from the story “In the end, even as bureaucrats bestow increments and sops on themselves, can citizens expect better governance? All government employees associations have rejected a key recommendation made by the commission: to link twenty per cent of annual increment to performance.So, while the exchequer is drained at the expense of the common man, the babu has ensured that he will continue to reap benefits—even as he shortchanges the government he is supposed to serve.”

    Read the full story here http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081013&fname=IAS+Officers+(F)&sid=1

  10. cold fact October 5, 2008 at 5:09 pm #

    I would ask all of you to visit the following blog and posts before 15 Sept.
    indianmilitarybenefits.blogspot.com
    See for yourself, the kind of names have been called for the service chiefs by the same bloggers who are now pouring praises for them. Some were asking them to wear bangles,petticots and what not. Had Shekhar Gupta written an article bringing out a similar sentiment then, these bloggers would have joined hands with him running down the chiefs.
    This would make amply clear that these people are not standing on firm footing,that’s why they shoot down every message and messanger which are contrary to their unfounded claims and aspirations.
    Today, they are crying foul against Babooz, media(contrarian) but not speaking anything against politicians cuz now they are pinning their hopes on GOM. They would not annoy them so that they would not go to others to know the truth. Come November, they will again start abusing everyone… Babooz,media,politicians and above all ,the three service chiefs… God bless them

  11. Nair October 5, 2008 at 7:39 pm #

    Armed forces are getting their perks enhanced with passing decade by emotional blackmail of the govt :-

    (a) In 1983, free ration was granted for all officers. (Earlier it was only upto JCOs and fighting formations. ) Now even low medical category, unfit and re employed officer get it, who are officially declared unfit. what a wastage of public money !!

    (b) In 1986, they got rank pay over and above their existing allowances.

    (c) In 1993, they got away with CI Ops and Field Area Allowances. (By the way it is their basic job for which they are trained and paid through out their life. )

    (d) In SCPC they govt MSP in lieu of Rank pay and SDA (Special disturbance allowances)

    They are already having so many hidden allowances , (totalling to approximately 20000 per month for each officer as compared with a Civil Service officer including IAS) which are not avaialble to Civil Services :-

    (e) CSD Facilities

    (f) They are the best paid service today. A Lt Col was getting approximately Rs 4000 more than his civilian counterpart Joint Director. This is now 20000 more for a Lt Col still not satisfied .

    (g) They get 3 month leave as against 38 days to their civilian counterpart.

    (h) Free railway warrants for self and family once a year.

    (i) Six Concession voucher for rail travel in a year.

    (j) Free ration

    (k) Rs 5000 as technical pay for doing tech course at government cost with full pay, while their civilian counterpart don’t get any such privilege.

    (l) A sahayak at home for which salary is given by the government. No dearth of manpower which is used at will for household chores, kitchen gardening etc

    (m)house with furniture at subsidized (50%) rent houses, free electricity, free furniture, free water.

    (n) Free school buses for children, School constructed through government funds but fee going to AWES fund (Army welfare education society) and officer’s wives given employment as teachers, principles etc.

    (o) Exclusive engineering colleges, medical colleges, management schools etc for ward of army personnel being run by AWES with active support of Army.

    (p) Numerous allowances for everything they are required to do as paert of thier basic job for which they are employed. (over and above Military Service Pay)

    Now they are demanding PB-4 for Lt Col hiding the fact, that post of Lt Col was downgraded in 1985 and again by AVSC I. Now Lt Col is a time scale post with 13 years of service. They are misrepresenting the fact, concealing facts and misguiding public and media about Lt Col post.

    The govt must act with a firm hand to deal with public bullying of Civilian govt by forces and defiance of cabinet decision. A bad precedent has been set by open defiance of cabinet decision and if this challenge to Civilian govt. authority is not nipped in the bud, the days of democracy in India will be limited.

  12. cold fact October 5, 2008 at 8:24 pm #

    Cabinet Secy seems to be convinced that Lt Col are equivalent to Dy Secy (JAG) as is the truth also that is what this link says….
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Armed-Forces-will-get-their-pay-hike-before-Diwali–Govt/369514

  13. PS October 5, 2008 at 8:41 pm #

    @pragmatic
    “Shekhar Gupta was right”

    [1] An Editor is Always Right Sir.
    (Authority: VN Narayanan, former Editor of The Tribune & then
    Hindustan Times in his book ‘The Divine Discovery and Other
    Essays’ pub 1995.’ ) To quote page 71 -

    “Contrition is not a journalistic virtue. There are few professions in the world – judiciary excluded – which are SO ARROGANTLY SELF RIGHTEOUS, so contemptuous of self regulation and so immune to self correction as is journalism.

    Little wonder that year after year in public polls taken on the least loved professions in the country, journalism manages to find itself at the top in the company of lawyers and policemen and barely escaping the category of a criminal and extremist organisation ”

    Recall that Velamur Narasimhan Narayanan (a Vaishnavite Brahmin from Madras) was the most gutsy and erudite journalist & Editor, India ever
    had. When editing the Tribune during the years of terror in Punjab he
    stood up, at and against them fearlessly. His later stint at the Hindustan Times was also remarkably great. He was eventually ousted by the
    ‘enemy within ‘ – a clique of scheming deputies – one of whom later
    became & still is an Editor of an English newspaper published in Delhi
    and is also an MP. So there. This Editor-MP was once hauled up for contempt of Court. That story and how he sent a junior journalist in revenge, to count the cows kept in the judge’s house for milk work(!)
    For another day.

    When Guptaji started his “Memorial business” he ‘recruited’ a long list of eminent ESM to hang around and sing his praises. When the peans faded
    (who reads the IE anyways) and his clout with the Brass and ex Brass ceased
    it became a case of ” no fury like a woman scorned ” Incidentally, I ‘humbly’ wrote to all and sundry telling them not to get involved with this gent. I even have a a polite reply from the office of the then Leader of the Opposition Mrs SG ack. my anguish about ” India Gate Basmati Rice ” and Commercial War Memorials. So There. The Poultry has come home to roost and dropped a load on the PEEK caps and berets. Cheers

    @pragmatic

    “Shiv highlights the damage done by the infighting among the various ex-servicemen groups. The temptation to head the proposed ex-servicemen welfare borad of the government is too strong to resist for these retired generals, air marshals and admirals.”

    [2] Absolutely right Sir. More later on this. In a hurry, have just been ordered by my arrogant Punjabi Boss (LOH) to collect the dupattas given for dyeing in the local market.

  14. test October 5, 2008 at 9:20 pm #

    A friend of mine, an ex-serviceman, has made the following points in respect of the edit by Mr. Shekhar Gupta. I paraphrase them to apprise the readers of this blog:-
    1. That this is not the first time that the Services have delayed acceptance of the Pay Commission Award. It happened in case of 4th and the 5th Pay Commission as well.
    2. This is out in the open now because of the wider reach of the internet, 24×7 news TV and the provisions of the RTI Act.
    3. In earlier cases, the Services Brass had agreed to refer a far larger number of issues to the Anomalies Committee but this time, they seem to have learnt something from the results of the past whereby the Services were done in, nice and proper. This need not be laboured because enough has been said on the subject by others on this and other blogs and elsewhere.
    4. That the politicians of the day are very comfortable dealing with the bureaucrats and policemen, used as they are to manipulating the latter and vice versa from their days in the district. The few in the political class who get to deal with the Services are those who have been either Home or the Chief Minister of insurgency affected states and even fewer who man Ministry of Defence. Thus the manner in which Services present their case appears to be alien to most in the political class.
    5. The naivety of the Services in dealing with the results of the 4th and the 5th Pay Commission Awards led the Secretariat types to be convinced that they could take yet another step in downgrading Services even further. For this, only the Services are to blamed.
    6. The inability of columnists such as Mr. Shekhar Gupta to see the complete picture may be attributable, in a charitable manner, to lack of complete knowledge or, in a less than charitable manner and as suggested by many commentators, due to interested external influence. My friend believes in the first.
    7. Finally, to colour the ongoing attempts by the Services to get the wrongs undone in the manner as has been done by the blogger and by Mr. Gupta, is to patently unfair and partisan. After all, there has to be a limit to patience. Or the Servicemen are Gandhians, who present the other cheek? If that is the kind of Armed Forces desired by the country, then God Save this Country.
    8. Finally, comments and observations such as those by the host blogger and Mr. Shekhar Gupta, are of course their right granted by the Constitution but are they in right spirit? It is not the case of my friend or mine that there is nothing wrong within the armed forces but to link those to the serious anomalies introduced by the 6th Pay Commission Award is to play a devilish game which is not good for the country. Of that I am convinced.

  15. vishanjali October 5, 2008 at 9:37 pm #

    It is time to critique the state of the polity in India after 60 years of Swarajyam. The focus is naturally on the Congress Party which has dominated the political scene and has been the prime instrument in creating an environment of criminalized polity in the country.

    It is indeed apt and timely that this article is published on Oct. 2, 2008 which is the birth anniversary of Mahatma Gandhi who once said after August 15th 1947 that Congress Party should disband itself. He had wisely recognized that the party needed to have its sunset after achieving its goal and new political fronts needed to be opened with new political parties, as the issues before the country had changed drastically after the British were expelled. Sixty years have passed by since his assassination and the Congress Party has not disbanded itself voluntarily. Now the time has come to insist that the Congress Party disband itself voluntarily or be banned by the Supreme Court of India in the pristine interests of the nation.

    Our forefathers gave us the treasure of dharma and our elders won for us Swarajyam from a colonial regime after a saga of millions of sacrifices rendered in the service of liberation of Bharata Rashtram, the Bharatiya Nation. Today, the hard-won independence stands threatened by the most shameful institution called the Congress Party with a record of acts of treason, acts against the interests of the nation. The National Congress Party as it was called at its inception is anything but national and has demonstrated a track-record of anti-national spirit and other dismal acts for six decades. A call for disbanding or banning the Congress is therefore demonstrably justified. The following is a charge sheet to call for its ban.

    Congress Party stands accused of its post-independence leaders committing indelible treason on the body politic of the nation.

    We are the children of Bharata Maata and our generation should not fail the future generations. This means that we should hand over to our children, the burning deepam of dharma which our elders have given us as a legacy.

    It is our duty to speak and speak satyam. Our duty is to speak and not be an accomplice in the crime of politicking by the Congress party or any other party for that matter ignoring national interests.

    A fair investigation into the recent votes-for-cash scandal often referred to as “money tantra” demonstrated by the leadership of the Congress Party leads to the conclusion that it is the most shameful blot on patriotic spirit enshrined in this nation, Bharatavarsha, for many generations starting with the days of the janapada-s of circa the sixth century before common era. The most appropriate consequence for the murderers of democracy and for their disloyalty to the country and its national interests should be the banning of the Congress Party which has orchestrated this money tantra and indulged in a series of cover-ups.

    A fair investigation will establish that the motive of the Congress leaders was clearly to stay in power to get the Indo-US nuclear deal executed in utter contempt of the Parliament, despite repeated assurances given to the Parliament by the “Honorable Substitute PM” that Parliament approval would be obtained before any deal is struck. There is overwhelming evidence of currencies flaunted and exchanged, Members of Parliament black-mailed and every form of intrigue making a mockery of the constitutional anti-defection provisions and laws. This violation of constitution of India by debasing every known tenet of Parliamentary procedure and decorum cannot be pardoned. Congress Party stands accused of engaging in this murder of parliamentary democracy in the State and hence it is time to demand that the Congress party be banned for egregious violation of the trust of the people that elected the Congress leaders to their office.

    Sovereignty of the nation has been undermined without due deliberation within the portals of Parliament and through public debates across the nation. It may be asked, on what authority can a Prime Minister sign a deal with another sovereign nation without honouring his own promises and without taking the Parliament into confidence and getting due approval from the Parliament? It is apposite to mention here that there is indeed a constitutional provision that Jawaharlal Nehru implemented in the late 40′s by assigning the Ministry of Foreign affairs a supraparliamentary status under the Prime Minister’s sole control and taking it out of the Parliamentary oversight. Under these provisions Prime Minister of India will not be required to consult the Indian Parliament for any treaties with any foreign government. This loophole has been present for sixty years. We must recognize that Indian democracy is immature and people have not taken an active role in curbing the power of the Prime Minister’s office because of their adulation and adoration of the Nehru dynasty. Despite legal loopholes, morality and raja dharma dictate that the Prime Minister of Bharat should be governed by ethical principles of taking the nation into confidence through the parliamentary/democratic institutions in place, however defective the evolving norms of parliamentary decorum and behavior may be. Manmohan Singh has failed in his duty to the nation. The end justifies the means, and the Indo-US Nuclear deal which is not explicit for most citizens might indeed turn out to be beneficial for the Nation and his immorality will then be condoned, nay, it may very well be condoned by many in the hopes that his conduct was in the ultimate interest of this country. Even so, the fact remains that his actions as they stand now show breech of public trust in his not revealing the essential details of the deal to the citizenry and the parliament of India.

    What a shame it is that a blot has been left on the sacred feet of Bharata Maata by the abominable deeds of the Congress Party which constitute moral crimes committed against the nation.

    The Congress Party stands accused, having committed acts against the supreme interests of the nation and in utter disregard of the primordial need for probity and propriety in public life, fiduciary responsibility of the highest standards, and living by the global ethic of the land under dharma. These acts can be delineated as follows:

    The Congress Party stands accused of engineering riots in the country during 1984 ‘pogrom’ against Sikhs and for its participation in the terrible miscarriage of justice.

    Congress leader Mohammed Hussein Kolata stands accused for planning the attack on Sabarmati Express.

    Indian newspapers had reported that Congress party was involved in instigating riots in the post-Godhra riots and prevented students from attending exams. This allegation needs further investigation. Nevertheless, Congress party has been charged with this misdeed and many such misdeeds in the past which have been hushed up without due inquiry and resolution of the charges. Such attitude makes the Congress Party “above the law” which is undemocratic.

    Although hundreds of Hindus were killed in the post-Godhra riots, Congress has white-washed this fact and so its official stand to re-victimize the victims by siding with the perpetrators needs to be investigated and the Party needs to be charged for its role in not rendering justice to the Hindu victims, deliberately distorting the truth.

    When the subject of modernization of the army was raised with Nehru, even in the remote past, it is commonly accepted that he responded by saying that, if need be, the army should be prepared to fight with ‘lathies.’ There was a pathological dislike of the Indian military in the Congress Party which came to power at the centre on attaining independence. Herein rests the answer to the military’s down-gradation in so systematic and persistent a manner soon after independence! The Bureaucracy exploited this bias of the congress to the hilt and added to it the fear of the possibility of a military take over as had occurred in some of the neighbhoring countries. It also managed to restructure the higher defense set-up to the nation’s overall strategic disadvantage. Congress resolution of 1942 stated, “The present Indian Army is an off-shoot of the British Army and has been maintained to mainly hold India in subjugation. It has been completely segregated from the general population.” These were the very years in which the British used police and not the army to ruthlessly crush the ‘Quit India movement’ and that Lala Lajpat Rai fell to police ‘lathies’ and not an army bullet. Yet the Congress heaped this ignominy on the Indian military. In actuality, however, it is the mutinies in the patriotic Army and Navy which threw a clear signal to the British that it was time to leave. This was indeed the major factor in the British decision to leave India. So it is highly malicious for anyone to term the loyal Indian Armed forces, our own protectors, as an “army of occupation.” The Congress leaders left the armed forces ill-equipped to wage a war in response to the aggression by China in 1962 with soldiers lacking warm socks and shoes as well as clothing necessary to survive in the cold territory in the height of winter. They were more interested in manufacturing coffee percolators in the military ordinance factories than weapons and tanks or military vehicles or furnishing adequate protective clothing for the jawans.

    Indian army has been in, ‘no war-no peace,’ state since independence. Wars apart, army has lost 569 officers and over 9000 Junior Commissioned Officers, other ranks and jawans in counter insurgency operation during the last ten years. While there is little value for human life in India, the value of soldier’s life counts for nothing in this country. Therefore, one wonders whose army is it anyway, and who will soldier for India! The Indian government, in the first 50 years of Independence, has deployed the Indian army to quell riots, maintain order, etc., 10 times more than the British did in their last 50 years of their rule in India. So much for the poor governance we have had all these years. The 6th Central Pay Commission was the last straw that broke the back of the Armed Forces, and the normally stoic and stiff upper lip has given way to the unprecedented sight of the ‘Veterans’ taking to the streets. Congress Party is to be blamed for this plight of the Jawans, military officers, and veterans.

    Repeated occurrences of terror attacks have been ignored or brushed away by Congress leaders’ statements of political make-believe stories with little sign of any more than a rhetorical windbag resolve to “fight to the finish a war on Islamist Jihadi terror.” There is no sight of any offensive leave alone a war against the Jihadi terrorists. There is no outrage in the ruling party except a Pollyannaish attitude placating the minority from among whom all the terrorists have originated. Visiting the victims of terrorist attacks in the hospital by barricading relatives from seeing their loved ones to facilitate access to the politicians for their publicity in the media is the modus operandi of the UPA leaders. Beyond going through the motions of demonstrating sympathy for a few victims purely for media attention, there has been no firm action against the terrorists except for the lip service. Not a single terrorist is apprehended, convicted or punished in the last four years by the present administration of the UPA government. Congress Party stands accused of not enacting a “Patriots Act”, of soft-pedaling on terror suspects, and even failing to punish terrorists found guilty of terrorist acts by the highest court of the land. Congress Party has even refused to act on the verdict and penalty handed down by the Supreme Court of India. Dhimmitude of the Congress party is demoralizing the entire country and preparing it to accept attacks after attacks with false sense of maturity or equanimity which only reflects basic cowardice or stupidity, becoming the laughing stock of the world politicians. Besides, this country entrusted to the Congress Party and its UPA allies is viewed by the terrorists as a soft target leading to their expansion of cells all over India with ISI and other foreign support. That is not the kind of “non-violence” Mahatma Gandhi preached.

    A Prime Minister of the Indian State, the late Honorable Rajiv Gandhi, was murdered by terrorists. The Congress Party chief, Sonia, recommended a remission in the sentence of death penalty disrespecting judicial process and she continues to keep contacts through her daughter with a convict in Vellore prison. Congress Party stands accused of treating the assassination of a Prime Minister Honorable Rajiv Gandhi as a family affair and by interfering with the judiciary and law enforcement by weakening all their efforts to bring all the culprits to book by seeking extradition of the conspirators involved in the foulest murder of the century against the head of state.

    It is a nightmare that all semblance of Constitutional proprieties have been thrown to the wind by affording extraordinary state protection to some selected privileged individuals and reducing the Office of the Prime Minister who is the head of the state to a mere apolitical bureaucratic status.

    The sovereignty and integrity of the nation has been imperiled by the misdeeds of the Congress Party which stands accused. In its degraded status Congress Party has removed itself from the heart of every Bharatiya. Banning such a Party by the political will of all Bharatiyas will be an endorsement of their heart-felt desire to rid the state of a political evil.

    The duty of a Prime Minister of a nation is to govern. When repeated failures occur in governance resulting in the loss of thousands of innocent lives for no reason across the nation, the Party to which such a PM belongs does not deserve to be recognized as a political institution worthy of respect and should be banned. Remember the late Lal Bahadur Shastri (first Prime Minister that was not part of Nehru dynasty) resigned when there was a preventable train accident that killed several citizens when he was the Railway Minister. No such remorse has been expressed by the Home Minister of the UPA administration Honrable Mr. Shivraj Patil. when so many Indians have died at the hands of the Jihadi terrorists. We have surely descended to lower levels of morality and public accountability than shown by leaders like the late Lal Bahadur Shastri.

    Honorable Manmohan Singh who publicly and sheepishly claimed that he was only a substitute for Ms. Sonia Gandhi and hence rightly called the “Honorable Substitute PM”, is a threat to the security of the nation by publicly lamenting for the mother of a Jihadi terrorist and not shedding tears for the Kashmiri Brahmins or the victims of terrorist attacks on the Parliament. Such wrongheaded unpatriotic acts of the head of the nation do not inspire confidence that he will safeguard the security of the nation. His tenure has resulted in unprecedented levels of demoralization in the armed forces that have defended the nation with their lives and who should have been honored with a Martyr’s Memorial true to the dharma of heralding Jai Jawan. Highest level of representation needed to have been offered by the UPA government to pay homage to the late Joint Chief of Staff, General Manekshaw.

    Chairman of the Indian National Congress and UPA is an Italian and from what was recently revealed was a dual citizen and has continuing allegiance to the Belgian government by joining the Order of Leopold. This is unheard of in any proud nation wherein the chief of the ruling party has publicly declared allegiance to a foreign power howsoever strong or weak.

    The present pathetic state of the Party and impoverishment of the nation is evidenced by the Party’s incompetence in governance with a standard operating procedure on the part of the Prime Minister of taking almost all major decisions only in consultation with the politicos in 10 Janpath (residence of UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi in Delhi). This is a gross devaluation of the august office of the Prime Minister of Bharat.

    A party which has by its shameful policies and inaction allowed thousands of farmers to commit suicide does not deserve the trust of the people of the state. At least for the sake of these dharmaatma-s, UPA and the Indian National Congress need to be banned.

    A polity of UPA and the Indian National Congress has left behind criminalized politics, using money power as the only instrument of state policy, making corrupt deals with local and national communal (caste-tribe based or minority religion based leadership) leaders with divide and rule politics carving out deals with fragments of society to create vote banks just to continue in office. Caste and creed are cleverly exploited by the Congress Party to maintain its grip on the vote-banks. As the wheels of justice grind very slowly in India with the blessings and indifference of the Congress Party, even the institutions which are expected to use intelligence in the interests of the nation have been subordinated to party interests and not serve the Government or the Nation first. It is a shame indeed that a party which was in the forefront of the swarajyam movement has been reduced to such a scoundrel status, miscreant in molding public opinion through corrupt and bought media support and even attempting to manipulate the fourth estate.

    In the light of justice and dharma, it is a crime to have exploited patriotism of bharatiya-s who have consistently shown exemplary patience and tolerance for over sixty years after swarajyam. This patience now has worn thin. Enough! The time has come to ban the Congress Party which is a pale imitation of and a far cry from those Congress leaders who fought for swarajyam. Intolerance of injustice is a virtue and not a sin.

    Heading a band calling themselves ‘secular’, the vote-bank motivated Party has debased our primordial duty and responsibility to protect dharma. Secular cabinet ministers have asked for lifting of a ban on an anti-national terrorist organization, encouraged grant of Indian citizenship to millions of illegal most potentially “Desha-drohi” Bangladeshi infiltrators. A communal head count was ordered in the army by the UPA government to start caste-tribe-creed-religion based divide and rule politics even within the armed forces, muted were the celebrations of Bharat Vijay Diwas, 16th December, and Kargil Vijay Diwas , and Pokharan test anniversary. All these devaluations of high ideals of the Armed forces and defense matters are not mere straws in the wind but indicative of a mind-set denigrating nationalist sentiments even within the Indian army. The logo and motto, “satyameva jayate,” too has been systematically erased from the Government and Judiciary stationery and letterheads. Such amoral attitude is only possible for the Congress party leaders who considered local Hindu community and its traditions as an embarrassment for them. More than that these aforesaid actions are bound to demoralize and fragment the strong armed forces of India endangering National Security. Such actions can only be characterized as treason at worst, and stupidity at best.

    The Congress Party led UPA government has achieved the dubious distinction of getting snubbed by the Courts of Law a maximum number of times for its misuse of power and abuse of Constitutional provisions in its ugly political games against the states ruled by opposition parties and for the relief of its political and family friends.

    It has allowed the Christian Churches and Missonaries to abuse the Constitutional provisions to indulge in illegal evangelisation and forced and coercive conversions to an alarming extent in the last four and a half years leading to communal unrest at the cost of peace & harmony.

    Dharma which we passionately cherish shall triumph. Dharma protects those who protect dharma.

    In the name of dharma, it is time for Congress to “go”. Congress Party stands accused of practicing a-dharma and readers of this appeal will unanimously call for a ban on this Party, total and unequivocal.

    The crimes committed by the Congress Party have resulted in increasing the vigilance of all bharatiyas who care only for the well-being of India and its present and future generations. The betrayal by the Congress Party will make all Bharatiyas watch its games under a microscopic scrutiny. We bear no grudge against those whom we accuse here. We only seek the exposition of truth, justice and dharma. Every Indian citizen has a tremendous yet as yet unrecognized power and a chance to bring about a change in the Centre. This is a cry of our atman. Let the broad daylight of the effulgent sun restore the nation to its rightful place in the comity of nations.

    We wait with profound respect, offer prayers at the sacred feet of Bharatamata with tears in our eyes for the future glory of every child of our nation, to uphold dharma, defined as that which upholds order and beauty in everything in the cosmos, and truth and sincerity in our collective consciousness. All who love and worship Bharatamata have a duty to demand that the Indian Congress Party be disbanded and be banned from this sacred land (Punyabhoomi).

    S. Kalyanaraman 2 October 2008

  16. PS October 5, 2008 at 9:46 pm #

    @test

    “is to play a devilish game which is not good for the country. Of that I am convinced.’

    These Faujis ( + ex’s) are about 0.3% of the Made in India population. Therefore a minority / endangered species. Let ‘em go to Valhalla ? Give them enhanced liquor quotas and close the topic ?

  17. Nair Force October 5, 2008 at 9:47 pm #

    @Guptaji, “The finest examples of that commitment are the two war memorials that have been built, in Pune and Chandigarh, with contributions of nearly Rs 2 crore, raised entirely by the readers of The Indian Express and, indeed, members of its staff.”
    Guptaji’s Baniyagiri at its best…subse bada rupaiya…no matter even if it means glorifying themselves at whatever costs. Even though overwhelming populace is in favour of armed forces…still guptaji has another explanation to mitigate the public opinion. Journalism of Cowardice i must say.

    @Nair Saab…Armed forces used to be once upon a time called Nair Force because of the huge number of your forefathers donning the uniform. Slowly they realised that this Uniform isnt worth all those perks you mentioned above in your post. I suggest please ask them why and why the hell did they leave all these perks for other pastures. You’ll get the worth of these perks in one stroke.
    Cheers

  18. Deshbhakt October 5, 2008 at 9:59 pm #

    Right from submission of 6th CPC Report, the armed forces have been creating a false impression of disparity in their pay and status vis-a-vis the civilian counterparts. The Govt., to address any such alleged disparities, constituted Anomalies Committee of Secretaries based on whose Report the Revised Pay Rules-2008 were Notified. Immediately after publication of this Report; the armed forces had expressed satisfaction and publicly confirmed that “all their core concerns have now been resolved”. Strangely, after awhile, after noticing that the Govt. can succumb to coercion, their ambitions rose higher and are now using all resources at their command, including misuse of gullible media, to demand unreasonable status in the hierarchy of the Govt. set-up. The entire content in media has been full of one-sided rhetoric devoid of any basis and blatant attempt to misrepresent the facts. To put the matter in correct perspective, the facts of the entire case are submitted as under:
    (a) One of the contentions of the armed forces is regarding lowering of status of Lieutenant Colonels (and equivalent ranks) vis-a-vis that of civilian Directors. This contention is misrepresentation of facts. In this connection it is brought to your kind notice that the pay scales of civilian Directors (non-IAS), Colonels and Lt Cols prior to 6th CPC were as under:
    Civilian Director : Rs.14300-18300
    Colonel : Rs.15100-17350
    Lt Col : Rs.13500-17100
    As per laid down policy of Govt of India, the terminal value of the pay scale is to be compared for determining the seniority. It would thus be revealed that the civilian Directors (having the end scale of Rs.18300) are senior to even Colonels (who have the end scale of Rs. 17300). Accordingly, the Govt. vide Gazette Notification No.D.L.-33004/99 of 2007 had Notified the equivalence between army and civilian officers in case of Boarder Roads Organisation as under:
    Civilian Officers of GREF Army Officers
    •Chief Engineer Major General
    •Superintending Engineer Colonel
    (Functional Scale)
    •Executive Engineer Lieutenant Colonel
    (Non-Functional Selection Grade)
    •Executive Engineer Major
    •Assistant Executive Engineer Captain
    The demand of Defence Services is thus totally unjustified as existing hierarchy of governance is sought to be disturbed by them with ulterior motives. On paper they have no associations, union etc but blatant blackmail by service chiefs is going on. Is it not indiscipline? Every service has grievances with the pay-commission. But other than so called disciplined, patriotic forces who else has blackmailed the govt like this? Following points are also highlighted:
    (a) They are the best paid service today. A Lt Col was getting approx Rs 4000 more than his civilian counterpart Joint Director before 6th cpc. This is now Rs. 20000 more for a Lt Col but they are still not satisfied.
    (b) They get 3 months leave as against 38 days to their civilian counterpart.
    (c) Free railway warrants for self and family once a year.
    (d) Six Concession voucher for rail travel in a year.
    (e)Free ration.
    (f) Rs. 5000 as technical pay for doing tech course at government cost with full pay, while their civilian counterpart don’t get any such privilege.
    (g) A sahayak at home for which salary is given by the government. No dearth of manpower which is misused at will for household chores, kitchen gardening etc.
    (h) Free houses, free electricity, free furniture, free water.
    (i) Majority of Lt Cols, for whom up-gradation is now being demanded, are not considered fit for posting to regiments (fighting unit) as most of them are superceded or SL and lack motivation and are thus dumped to organisations like BRO,DRDO,MES etc. Their performance here also is poor due to lack of inherent quality and experience.
    (j) Free school buses for children.
    (k)Schools constructed through government funds but fee going to a private AWES fund (Army Welfare Education Society) and officer’s wives given employment as teachers, principles etc.
    (l) Exclusive engineering colleges, medical colleges, management schools, law colleges, public schools etc. for ward of army personnel being run by AWES with active support of Army. Regular army officers are being irregularly posted to such private institutions.
    (m) Numerous allowances for everything they do ranging from CI OPS to Siachin to field area, uniform and so on. There are a total of 40 different types of allowances. Lo and behold, there are allowances for even spectacles, extra-duty, good service, shorthand, sea-going etc etc.
    (n) Our CMPF are much worse and their life is much more difficult but no MSP for them and they did not raise even a voice of murmur what to talk of blackmail. Do not think that the defence forces are the paragon of honesty. There is rampant corruption here also as they come from same society. They in fact go berserk on the first opportunity . All this continues when they come to civilian organisations. But they have managed to befool the gullible civil society of being direct descendants of Raja Harishchandra. They take full advantage of the stealth kabach available to them in the form of OG uniform.
    (o) They are miser when it comes to giving something as they have been thoroughly been spoiled by free-ration culture and always expect every thing for free. Steeling of electricity in cantts in rampant. Officers unauthorizedly use numerous ACs in their houses but hardly pay any bills.
    (q) They get compensated for everything and still get Rs. 20000 more while working in civilian organisations and equal pay for equal work principal is violated. Govt. should give whatever is necessary to compensate them in difficult areas but while working in mixed organisations they should be paid at par with civilians.

  19. Rohit Kakkar October 5, 2008 at 10:13 pm #

    I love ‘Pragmatic’.

    He closed a discussion (“Where the winds of the arguement leads…”) on 02 Oct 08 and as if on cue, Shekhar Gupta comes up with another diatribe on 03 Oct 08.
    Just coincidence?

    Further our friend Pragmatic, now does not even bother with a sembelence of an introduction for this discussion . Just a crisp “Sekhar Gupta is Right” and off we go again.

    He surely is enjoying this. I will be disheartened if he is ultimately revealed to be an IDSE officer.

    However, as it emerges that 95% of the respondents at the Indian Express feel that the action taken by the Chiefs is in order, we can continue to ignore the frustrated half truths and outright lies from Sh Nair # 11.

  20. jezailchi October 5, 2008 at 10:25 pm #

    @rohit kakkar

    “I will be disheartened if he is ultimately revealed to be an IDSE officer.”

    (a) what if he an isi officer ?
    (b) what of the remaining dubious virtue of commenters joined in earnest ?

  21. Kaushal October 5, 2008 at 10:25 pm #

    @Deshbhakt.

    Have you sent any of your children to the Army if it is such a great provider?

  22. test October 5, 2008 at 10:30 pm #

    @Ps

    Amazing lack of grace. Or does the anonymity of the blog encourages such conduct? It is clear that you do not have a logical response but carry an animus. Anyway, I will not dignify you further.

  23. jezailchi October 5, 2008 at 10:34 pm #

    @ Deshbhakt
    “they should be paid at par with civilians.”

    Technically, Financially, Legally, Morally etc etc Correct Sir.
    BUT, IF they are given the option to (anytime) :

    (a) decide not to die In The National Interest
    (b) work 9 to 5 and let opposition parties rule the
    DND / Kupwara flyover for the other 16 hours

  24. Malik October 5, 2008 at 10:37 pm #

    There should also be reverse parity between civilians and Armed Forces in matters of facilities e.g. CSD facility, liquor at lower prices, club membership etc. both in service and after retirement. Giving all the goodies to armed forces is not justified ? Can armed forces perform the job of Railways or engineers or teachers, doctor or a safai wala ?

    It has been demanded that Lt. Col. should be considered equivalent to Director in Govt. of India (GoI) and, therefore, placed in Pay Band 4.

    I have following questions on this demand :-

    (a) If Lt. Col. is equivalent to Director, then what is the civilian equivalence of Colonel and Brigadier?

    (b) Are all the 3 ranks of Lt. Col., Colonel and Brigadier equivalent to Director in GoI?

    (c) If all of them are equivalent to director, then the grade pay of Col and Brigadier should be same as that of director. ?

    (d) Is fundamental principle of equal pay for equal work not voilated when armed forces officers are posted to other organisation like MES, DGQA, DGBR, DRDO, Assam Rifles, BSF as they get much more allowances and perks as compared with the professional officers of the department (MES/ DGQA/ DRDO/ GREF) while doing the same job and costing much more to govt.

    (e) Should all the fauji perks (which are not available to civil Service Officers) of armed forces personnel be withdrawn when they are posted in civil organizations/ Ministry of defence to honour fundamental constitutional right of equal pay for equal work ?

    The Government of India should come out with comparable ranks in Armed Forces and civilian structure. Let every level in civilian bureaucracy and Armed Forces know their comparative status. This will also facilitate new entrants in making career choice. The decision taken by the Government of India in this matter should not lead to dis-satisfaction among civilian officers.

  25. jezailchi October 5, 2008 at 10:38 pm #

    @test
    “Amazing lack of grace.”

    Sir,

    Why are Generals allowed to draw 4 times the wine quota as Sergeants ?
    Grace marks for good behaviour please ?

  26. Stray Barker October 5, 2008 at 10:44 pm #

    @malik

    “This will also facilitate new entrants in making career choice.”

    So everyone can join the best ‘paying’ organisation anytime.
    FREE at least. Thank you for your support. May I exit today ?

  27. Kapoor October 5, 2008 at 11:04 pm #

    @IE

    “But was this — the three chiefs turning themselves into a group of defiant trade union heads — the only way to handle it?”

    Pray suggest a better way!
    The defence forces could not do what tha IAS did!

    Read this interesting article

    Primus Inter Predators?
    The IAS lobby has cornered for itself far more pay than the Union cabinet cleared

    @ http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081013&fname=IAS+Officers+%28F%29&sid=1&pn=1

  28. Deshbhakt October 5, 2008 at 11:12 pm #

    The bogey of so called shortage of officers in the armed forces is being spread by the vested interests in the Services to befool the gullible public outside who is not aware of the goings-on behind the iron curtain. This has become a tool to be used to coerce the Govt. to extract maximum benefits.A study needs to be carried out as to how the career in Armed Forces has almost become a ‘pushtaini dhanda’ for the wards of the Armed Forces and why the candidates without any family background of Services are not able to get recruited in officers’ cadre of the Armed Forces. Govt. may accordingly review the recruitment process through SSBs (which are prone to inside influence) to tide over the problem of alleged shortage of officers in the Services. It is also intriguing as to why the Services are not ready to withdraw Army Officers from mixed Organisations like MES; BRO; Coast Guard; DRDO etc. and utilize them for the purpose they are recruited for. Their uncalled for induction in these organizations is leading to such bickering which is eating into the vitals of these organizations thereby seriously affecting efficiency. This will simultaneously solve the problem of alleged shortage of officers in Armed Forces.

  29. Prakash October 5, 2008 at 11:12 pm #

    @ Malik..

    Can i join the best paying organisation anytime.. IAS..

    ha ha ha.. NO IAS BABOOOZE are scared thats why they dun allow lateral shift or switch over from Armed forces to IAS…..

    prakash

  30. Anshuj October 5, 2008 at 11:24 pm #

    Dear Prag.
    Enough of Guptaji bashing.
    I have a suggestion(I know its your blog ),Mr Amar Singh is in news for his recent utterances regarding Delhi Encounter.Somehow,this guy appears quite intriguing to me.
    May I request you to do an article on this guy covering all facets of his life.
    Who is he?
    What is his lineage?
    His success story?
    His relations with Bollywood?
    If done well this article can serve as a case study to be taught in Pol Science and Management Institutions.
    Why not serve a different dish for a change.
    (No offence to Amar Singh JI)

  31. Rohit Kakkar October 5, 2008 at 11:47 pm #

    @ Deshbhakt, #28
    Firstly, I appreciate that you tried to get into the armed forces, but could not, because, you percieve that a ‘pustaini dhanda’ prevented you from doing so. Tell you what, I also am from a non- fauji background, but I was able to get in without any hastle.

    Now the debate about our inter- se calibre having been so settled, it stands to reason that the government cannot trust you to run vital defence oriented organisations such as MES, BRO, DRDO and Cost Guard.

    The bickering which you mention in your post, is entirely avoidable but the reason for the bickering is not that you and me work in a mixed organisation ultimately headed by a service General. The executive command at each level till the Chief Engineer, is shared equally.

    I assure you, If both of us agree to keep the country’s interest where it has been stated by Chatwode (You know him?), the organisational efficiency will be enhanced no end.

  32. Patriot October 6, 2008 at 12:51 am #

    The ploy of shortage of officers comes every time a pay commission is announced – only to grab maximum from pay commission. This time it is MSP. Now they want more- PB-4 for Lt Col (now doing job of a capt/ maj) using the same ploy shortage of officers, difficult working conditions, siachin , LOC ,CI, old parity of three decades earlier in WoP etc etc. hiding the down gradation of post of Lt Col to a non select post of earlier maj/ capt )

    A Col (grade pay 8700+6000 MSP= 14700/-) posted in New Delhi or mumbai or Hyderabad gets more than a joint secretary (grade pay 10,000/- to govt. of India (Thanks to MSP). The pay commission have been tried to be fooled once again to believe as if whole of armed fores are deployed on the LOC/ CI in a brink situation through out their entire service life.

    The way they select cadets in SSB is beyond logic. Even the IIM/ IITs (who really require people with best brains) don’t select the way they select cadets for NDA/ IMA/ Naval Academy / OTA. There is no transparency. No qualifying marks. They only say the quality of candidates coming for SSB is not up to the mark. They say that most of the candidates coming for SSB don’t have OLQs. Their logic of OLQs will make all HR professional laugh.

    Those who are serving in the armed forces are there as professionals and government servants. As far as patriotism goes, a person on the street may also display the same amount of patriotism as any officer or soldier in the armed forces. There should be no doubt in anybody’s mind that a software professionals who is earning foreign exchange and contributing to the Indian economy is as much a patriot as anyone else. A doctor who is serving patients in a remote district is as much a patriot as any one else. A municipal worker doing his job is also as much a patriot as any one else.

    So the armed forces is just another job in India like any other branch of the government. I will not like to discuss other aspects such holier than thou approach.

    Another factor is that authorization of officers ? The authorization of officers was fixed more than four decades earlier. Now there are lot of changes due to technology and computerization. Down sizing as has been done in civil sectors like banks, PSUs, Govt. need to be done in armed forces also.The authorization of officers required for Indian armed forces need to be done a fresh – through an outside professional agency. More over , when the threat of conventional war has reduced, do we really need 1.5 million strong armed forces ?

    Thirdly, when there is shortage of officers, why we have permanently posted 2000 of service officers to civil posts in MES, DRDO, GREF, DGQA, BSF, Assam Rifles, Cost Guard.

    As rightly pointed out by Malik

    “(d) Is fundamental principle of equal pay for equal work not voilated when armed forces officers are posted to other organisation like MES, DGQA, DGBR, DRDO, Assam Rifles, BSF as they get much more allowances and perks as compared with the professional officers of the department (MES/ DGQA/ DRDO/ GREF) while doing the same job and costing much more to govt.

    (e) Should all the fauji perks (which are not available to civil Service Officers) of armed forces personnel be withdrawn when they are posted in civil organizations/ Ministry of defence to honour fundamental constitutional right of equal pay for equal work ? ”

    these question need to be asked by govt. and National Human rights Commission as why the fundamental rights of Civil service personnel of equal pay for Equal Work is being violated in these organizations.

  33. nationalist123 October 6, 2008 at 6:10 am #

    Fundamental right of equal pay for equal work is enshrined in Constitution of India.
    Civilian engineer officers of MES who after physical service of more than 20 years are stagnating at Jt. Dir level in PB 3 DRAWING total salary of 44300/- whereas a counterpart service officer of 20 years service in MES is Col. and drawing salary of 65000/- + 6000/- MSP + FREE RATION + FREE ACOMODATION + FREE ELECTRICITY + 90 DAYS Annual leave for the same work as that by civilian officer. Should the Principle of same work same pay shall not be applied in mixed organisations like MES?.

  34. nationalist123 October 6, 2008 at 6:23 am #

    1. officers with total 16 years of service are getting promotion from Lt Col to Col in Armed forces (eg Corps of Engineer). That means that defence officers are also getting PB-4 after 16 years of service which is quite comparable & even better than other central services.

    2. If a Lt. Col fails to get promotion as Col then how far is it correct to ask PB-4 for Lt Col.

    3. In all central govt services officers get PB-4 after proper promotion and not as time scale . Even selection grade is given after proper DPC and officers who are below the benchmark prescribed for promotion are not considered even for selection grade.

  35. nationalist123 October 6, 2008 at 6:34 am #

    Unjustified demand Armed forces ???

    1. Honourable Supreme court of India has adjudged that Pay Commission is the right authority to decide equilance of pay or post as it has got full picture before it while deciding the pay.

    2. Six pay commission has now clearly laid down the equilance by making grade pay criterian.

    3. Questioning of pay commission recommendations by armed forces amounts to defy law of land.

    God bless all

  36. cold fact October 6, 2008 at 7:46 am #

    @Prakash#29
    Can i join the best paying organisation anytime.. IAS.. unquote

    So you want a back door entry into a service which you could not join after completion of your engineering degree from REC( Could not even clear the Prilims twice).What to talk of IAS, you could not even clear IES exam and landed in corps of engineers which was so easy to join. God Bless you and all

  37. Rajesh October 6, 2008 at 7:47 am #

    Dear Mr. Gupta,

    You believe you know everything. If you have a scrap book of your earlier articles, go through it. How many of your predictions have come true?
    Public memory is short lived so you get away with your canards.
    You have to kick up a storm in a tea cup else you will lose your clout

    Jai Hind

  38. Stray Barker October 6, 2008 at 9:30 am #

    @nationalist 123

    ” Fundamental right of equal pay for equal work is enshrined in Constitution of India.”

    You are very right and corect Sir.

    However, in that case very, very simply a jawan should be getting at least twice the pay of a civilian doing ‘equal work’ because the latter works on average for 16 (?) hours a day. Also a civilian has no death duties and other such TDS.

  39. devendra October 6, 2008 at 9:58 am #

    what a article.Thanks god someone has called a spade a spade. Action of service Chief was like TRADE UNION LEADER.There is a need to show an iron hand by the weakest Govt and defence minister, oterwise our services will also behave like pakistan army and try to estblish their supermacy over
    political and administative wing.If so happen then our democracy will be in danger.

  40. Anshuj October 6, 2008 at 12:05 pm #

    @devendra.
    oterwise our services will also behave like pakistan army and try to estblish their supermacy over
    political and administative wing.If so happen then our democracy will be in danger
    .

    Democracy in India is already an endangered species.
    Mr Amar Singh exonerated of MP bribing charges,then who is responsible for bringing shame to the Nation.
    Which democracy you are talking about devendra?

  41. MARINER October 6, 2008 at 2:02 pm #

    plz. have a look at

    http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081013&fname=IAS+Officers+%28F%29&sid=1&pn=1

    regards

  42. Prakash October 6, 2008 at 2:15 pm #

    @ Cold Fact..
    Ha HA HA .. chalo is bahane u agreed that the best paying organisation is IAS… Sabse jyada paise kahane ko bhee woheen milta hai aur kamane ko bhe woheen milta hai…
    I bet entry to IAS is also Paisa khila ke.. No woder we get a bunch of buffoon’s…

    Read This article on outlook above by mariner and also read this

    COVER STORY: NEW BABUS
    ————————————
    Backwoods Babus

    Children of rickshaw-pullers, farmers, clerks are cracking the IAS. Will they lead to a better, kinder bureaucracy?

    ANJALI PURI

    Magazine | Aug 06, 2007
    ———————————————–

    Cheers to this Country

    prakash

  43. Rohit Kakkar October 6, 2008 at 3:32 pm #

    What is with these names- ‘Nationalist”, “Deshbhakt”, “Patriot”?

    See!! it is so difficult to prove that you are men, untill you really announce yourself with fancy bollywood inspired names.

    Whereas a service person such as me can have a normal name and I don’t have to tom-tom my patriotism.

    PS: I apologise, if these names had been actually given to you by your parents.

  44. kapoor October 6, 2008 at 4:27 pm #

    Report on armed forces grievances expected in two weeks: Navy Chief
    TOI
    6 Oct 2008, 1325 hrs IST,PTI

    NEW DELHI: Rubbishing reports that he was censured by Defence Minister A K Antony for his “defiance” over the Pay Commission report, Navy chief Suree
    sh Mehta on Monday said he expected the ministerial committee looking into the “core issues” raised by the armed forces to give its recommendations within a fortnight.

    Mehta also reiterated that the defence personnel’s grievances over the 6th Pay Commission report were “not about money,” but about status equivalence and command and control issues.

    He said the issues “missed out” were “oversights” and nobody “could have done it wilfully”.

    “I should think that we will have a final answer within about two weeks time or so,” Mehta told reporters here while replying to a question on when the committee headed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee was expected to submit its report.

    “But they (the Mukherjee committee) are in the process of finding out what are the issues involved. And I’m sure they will take the right decision pretty quickly,” he said.

    Asserting that the issues were about “status equivalence”, the Navy chief said: “I said so the other day and I will say it again. The issue over here is not about money.

    “The issue here is that there is a certain status equivalence — there are certain functional requirement (while) working at particular levels.”

    Pointing out that problem arose in the field areas, where paramilitary and forces were working together, he said: “If there is a command and control problem, there is a big issue there. And that is what is happening in the control rooms. You know that in the North East and Jammu and Kashmir we have got these kinds of set ups.”

  45. Blake October 6, 2008 at 6:02 pm #

    @ Prags.
    Kudos to you . U have a knack of quoting just the right (or wrong) extracts from a plethora of articles written on the subject that incite a lot of reactions on your blog. That is a real gift, sir.
    @ Gupta ji
    “But today they do not see the damage they have done in the process to their own fantastic tradition and institutions.”

    I wonder why the onus of upholding , safe guarding , or even warning about the fall of the “Fantastic Traditions and Institutions” always seems to fall on people who never been a part of these institutions in the first Place!

    Maybe the great man needs to be quoted again here
    “If you attempt an actual argument with a modern paper of opposite politics, you will have no answer except slanging or silence.”

    Slanging , we have seen , lets now await silence !

  46. jezailchi October 6, 2008 at 7:02 pm #

    “and the entire country got the impression that the soldiers had been done in by the pay commission and now the three chiefs and their minister were all fighting for them.”

    [1] Clever, devious military fellows. What was expected by civvy street
    was sincere, straightforward methods as demo at Dargai, Kargil,
    Crimea, Samana, Birkenhead, Chillianwala, Passchendaele, Bobby
    Deol borders etc.

    [2] So give more opportunity for Gupta Sir to organise another ‘ India
    Gate Basmati Rice’ and Commercially viable martyrs memorials for
    say Pan masala to use as logos. What is good for M & M Enterprises
    is good for BSZ Margis.

  47. observer October 6, 2008 at 8:22 pm #

    @ Deshbhakt at 11:12 pm

    You have hit the nail on its head. Let’s hope for the best.

  48. nikszee October 6, 2008 at 8:51 pm #

    It is indeed a sad state of affairs when people talk like that about the armed forces. The right to redressal is their with every force and that is what the Chiefs did. Shekhar Gupta is grossly wrong and incorrect in stating that the Chiefs behaved like trade unionists, they just put in a note of dissent to restore the parity of the Officers, is it an unjust demand. The talk of priviledges by the likes of Mr Patriot is naive as people like him have no understandig about the functioning of the Forces in the country. Lt Cols are the men who are leading the troops if their authority is undermined it will lead to more conflicts in an increasing internal security scenario when the Armed Forces are called out for things such as rescuing a child from ditch or well.It seems our civil Officers are not capable of that also let alone asking them to control riots or undertake rescue operations during floods. As it is the IAS/ IPS are not responsive by undermining the Officers of The Armed Forces you make them unresponsive also.If that happens GOD SAVE THIS COUNTRY.
    The great Chanakya had said to his King – “Look after your soldiers for he will ask for nothing and sacrifice everything , It will indeed be a sad day for the kingdom when the soldier asks for his dues”. THAT SAD DAY HAS ARRIVED FOR INDIA.

  49. Deepak October 6, 2008 at 9:33 pm #

    READ AND TRY TO ASSIMILATE SOMETHING( IF AT ALL ANY SENSE IS LEFT IN ALL U GUYS WHO ARE HOWLING AWAY TO GLORY AGAINST ARMED FORCES)
    —————————————-
    THE HINDU
    05 Oct 2008
    Corporate patriotism

    Kanika Sharma

    We beam with pride and patriotic fervour, but when the war is over, so are the memories.

    I recently watched an extremely emphatic movie on the martyrs of the Indian Army. Progressing with the latter I confronted not only the indifferent attitude of our Government, but mine own. How often do we, the sassy intelligentsia youth of today, lend a thought to the brave soldier risking his life. It’s their noble duty to protect us civilians which they fulfil with profound sanctity.

    But what about the newly wed wife who loses her husband, or the little 7-year-old daughter who pines away for her father back home or thousands of those wrinkled mothers who lose their only financial and emotional support amongst the debris of countless others. They lay down their lives for our smug existence and even though we beam with pride and patriotic fervour, when the war is over, so are the memories.

    Our economy is enlarging its paraphernalia of income and production in every possible way. The corporate giants continue to gain mammoth profits and pave the way for the most affluent way of life filled with the glitter of luxury. Such news items that fan the ego of the wealthy corporates abound in the media and create a glaring disparity in the income levels of many. Not that I am an out and out capitalist cynic but the ostentatious display of wealth in a country like ours invites a bit of scepticism. But the military profession, continues to be as always, taken for granted. Contemporary trends indicate a lot of corporate social responsibility projects (CSR’s) being run by certain conscientious multinational companies. They are doing projects corroborating environmental and social issues. But we cannot dispute that in the end it all culminates to voluntary charity.

    What is this schizophrenic nature of our society? We are moved to tears by compassionate movies like ‘Border’ but the minute we step out of the multiplex, so do our appropriate Indian sensibilities.

    Yes, we are citizens and not bureaucrats in power who possess the authority to pass legislations. But we can trigger off the thought process. Why does one of the most dignified of professions require philanthropy? Why does our Government not impose a mandatory army tax on the draconian corporate companies?

    My resentment is not against the MNC’s but a frustrated reaction to a government that overlooks the need to compensate the army men or their families. Why does the Gen X prefer to be a CEO and refutes the once elite status of an army man? The pay scales are admittedly, anything but appealing.

    So, the government needs to now stop the redundant contemplation on nuclear deals but perceptibly hike the coveted pay scales of the military. I feel confident; I don’t just echo an individual perspective but a collective view point of every aware Indian. So this independence day where we complete 61 years of glorified sovereignty, let’s cross our fingers that our government renders some tangible pay-scales to the army, so that it’s not the just the private companies who realise the almost 9 per cent GDP.
    —————————————————————————————–

  50. DESHBHAKT October 6, 2008 at 11:07 pm #

    @ Shri Rohit Kakkar

    Can you please give the statistics of recruitment of officers in Army in last 5 years as to:
    (a) How many tatal candidate appeared in SSBs?
    (b) How many of these were finally selected?
    (c) Out of those selected; how many had the right connections in the form of family background of Services and how many were first timers?

    Simply saying that you got selected without any family backgroud of Services does not disprove my contention which has been made with a degree of certainty based on personal experience of so many boys in family having not been selected despite clearing CDS, NDA repeatedly as also the general enquiries made. You hardly find any ‘first timers’. If this is not ‘pushtaini dhanda’ than what it is?

  51. Deepak October 7, 2008 at 6:35 am #

    @DESHBHAKT( SO CALLED)

    lemme tell u in a straight forward way.. jinke bachche haram ke kamai kha kha kar bade hote hai woh kabhee bhee Fauz mein naheen aate.. jisne bachchpan se rishwat ke kamai aur haram ka paisa dekha ho wo kahan see fauj join karega..
    So the bottom line is please go and do some homework first and find out how many IAS offrs children or politicians children are in the Armed Forces??

    Then u dare talk abt pushtaini dhanda???
    ITS EASY TO KEEP NAME AS DESHBHAKT AND DO TALK LIKE DESHDROHI…

    FOR PEOPLE LIKE U READ WHAT A CHILD OR ARMED FORCES WRITES… HUMARE BACHCHE APNE MA BAAP KEE SAATH DHAKKE KHA RAHE HOTE HAIN (COZ OF TRFRS) JAB tumhare bcchche apne baap kee free ke kamai uda rahe hote hain..
    ——————————————————————

    Letter from an young woman who is on the threshhold of becoming a responsible and patriotic Indian woman, like all daughters of India.

    Who let the politicians out?

    by Vaishnavi Prasad

    It’s very simple. A military coup, that is. One collective word is all it needs to convert this nation from a democratic country to a progressive economy with martial law.

    The armed forces will take over the nation, and no one can do a thing about it. Not the police force, not Manmohan Singh(=Sonia Gandhi), not A.K. Antony. No one. A movement will arise so suddenly and with the fury of a raging tsunami, that it will rewrite India’s future, inject discipline in the blood of every Indian, unscrew unopened bottles of potential and terrorise the intestines out of those who dare to oppose them or irrigate the minds of others with vile thoughts. Corruption will be eliminated 90% and progress will double. Indeed, the souls of our forefathers who fought for real freedom, will rest whole-heartily under this military control. Ironic, but true.

    The question here is, why won’t they do it?

    Let me tell you what bothers me. I am the 19 year old daughter of a retired government servant, an army officer to be specific (note the “Servant”.. absolutely true in case of the armed forces)

    My father, who retired as a Colonel, is not a reciever of the PVSM, AVSM, VSM, or even the VC for that matter. He was a part of the army, served an ordinary Colonel’s role, did not jump in front of a bullet to save his men, or plan an intelligent strategy to capture some enemy territory. He was a part of both major wars with Pakistan and China, returned without being a decorated war hero, served in regiments in both borders, saw extreme weather conditions and backward technology and most importantly, he enjoyed and took immense pride in doing all this and serving the nation.

    Yet, I feel my father is a greater man than many “greats” in this nation. Shahrukh Khan, or Pratibha Patil,to begin with:neither of them have sacrificed more than a sleepless night or compromised on their Saturday morning sleep for the nation.

    I don’t blame you for saying, “Oh, she’s an army officer’s daughter, obviously that’s why she’s biased”. I don’t deny it. It is true. I am biased. And I want every single person in this country, if not the world to be biased. I can only tell you what it is like to have seen these people up, close and personal, to have heard true incidents of bravery and selflessness and then know they’re are being paid peanuts, to sacrifice their lives without hesitation for the nation.

    When I was 16, my family took a holiday to Arunachal Pradesh, to the regiment where my father had been in command, more than 20 years ago. From a scenic , quaint little town called Tenga, on the banks of a gushing river, we travelled to a snow desert near the Chinese border called Bumla. Here, in the middle of nowhere, one could see a small board stuck in the ice reading “Welcome to India”. For as far as our eyes could see in all four directions, there was nothing but snow. Beside that board stood a guard, probably of south Indian origin, in 6 layers of clothing, a giant wind-cheater and the heaviest pair of snow-boots imaginable, against constant rapid winds, endless lengths and immense depths of ice, pacing an abandoned minefield from the 1962 war, looking through a telescope at Chinese vantage points to track enemy positions and moves.

    He didn’t opt to be there, but when he chose the forces as a career he knew what he would be facing, and he faces it with valour, for he has the patriotism that you and I and many of our politicians lack. Tomorrow he may die in battle, but I know for sure, that no one who has joined the forces will ever regret taking up that profession. If he dies in an act of bravery, he will most probably be awarded a VC or PVC medal for the same, posthumously. Then the government might give his family a lump sum and/or a measly monthly stipend of Rs.850 to Rs.1500. I ask you, is that all this man’s life is worth?

    What about a serving soldier? He mostly hails from small areas or rural backgrounds with an uneducated wife and 2 children back in his village alone.Typical, but true. This man, who has time in the forward areas only to eat, sleep and watch the enemy, hardly sees his family. His entire salary is sent back home to his spouse, who faces the brunt of yet again uneducated parents-in-law ready to blame her for anything that happens to their son. In such a situation, a soldier’s wife receiving the pitiful salary of her husband will be left an orphan in the middle of the road, simply for the lack of money.

    Then, these war heroes, and martyrs are forgotten within minutes, no, wait, seconds of their death. No one forgets to come for the Republic Day parade ,or to place that wreath they didn’t order on the grave of some memorial they don’t know was built for what om Independence day. Just because it is protocol. Protocol to “remember” (or forget?) these people on these “days” meant for our nation, to “remember” them for the 30 seconds it takes you to read patriotic forwards and messages in your in boxes on email and on your cellphone.

    Like a 90-year old war veteran said, I guess it’s the forces who are to be blamed. Right from the 3rd pay commission-who screwed up royally- the three forces have always put the pride of serving the nation over money. I guess it’s their fault they didn’t demand it then.

    My father and I have been discussing this issue for a while now, and my blood boils, every single time I see our so-called Defence minister Mr.A.K.Antony defending his stupidity on a podium which he does not deserve. Have you for a minute stopped and thought about why you at home are able to enjoy your evening spent listening to your iPod, or watching a DVD on your 42-inch LCD? It is because you live in India, where the borders, threatened by invasion every second, are guarded constantly, by the watchful eyes of some 27-year old son of a mother who sits far away in a remote town, praying consciously every second for the safety of her son. If that guard decided to look away for even a minute, he would be dead, within seconds, and there would be an invasion leading to chaos everywhere. Soon, India would become a replicate Iraq, pandemonium prevailing,where you would need the permission of your invaders to even use the toilet, which under normal circumstances would be your birthright.

    Sometimes it’s scary, how something so simple and routine is linked to something so complex and out of hand. From all of you who saw these reports of the military’s peaceful war against the government on television, some of you changed the channel since it didn’t concern you, some saw the report and took it in as general knowledge, and some burnt rage over it for a few seconds. Those whose blood still boils, would be the ones who have actually some patriotism left in their blood.

    Am I being too philosophical for a nineteen year old? Most of you might say yes, but I say, why not? You would too, if you saw the fire in the eyes of these people the way I do.

    And what is it, with Mr.Antony’s comment on discipline? I’m sorry Mr.Antony, but you politicians, who hit each other with chappals, and microphones, use unparliamentary language in the parliament, come half an hour late to a meeting, and do not know the words of the national anthem, are talking about discipline.Please, don’t make me laugh.Or with the panel that is enquiring the pay commission having IAS officers in it!? Why don’t we have a separate pay commission for the Military like most other countries do? Why do we have to put up with a cock-eyed system? Why does a DGP get paid almost twice as much as his equivalent in the forces? Why does the army have to replace the fire-brigade, police force and everyone else, when it is specifically mentioned that the forces are only for training during peace and attack during war. Why does the government involve the forces in flood relief , earthquake relief, tsunami relief, and more recently, rescuing of children fallen in pits? Then to put the cherry on the icing, you pay them in a pay scale adopted in 1948?

    I have faced and will face a lot of criticism for my views.As some of my friends say, we do get good rations, accommodation and cheaper FMCGs and alcohol. Rations and accommodation -anyone in a decent government service gets that. Cheaper FMCGs- The least the government can do is to remove the taxes off the MRP of many products and make it available to the average soldier, who in return is willing to pay the price of his life for his nation. Cheap alcohol- yes, a bottle of rum is relatively cheaper. Why don’t you spend one year of your life to replace a soldier in snowy altitudes, in nothing but a tent or in the blistering heat of the Thar with the only wind bringing sandstorms along with it or in the jungles of Nagaland with the leeches sucking your blood out and I’m sure ANY soldier you replace to give him precious time with his family will gladly give you all the rum he can ever get in his life, simply so you don’t die of exhaustion and depression and actually live to tell your tale.Simply, so you can survive.

    Let me remind you (non)patriotic souls, that the life of a person in the armed forces is one filled with dignity and pride, and I believe it should reflect in how much s/he is paid, for glamour and corruption rule the roost today, and that bias will take our country nowhere.

    Hoping for the best to come for our brave men and women.

    JAI HIND.

    Vaishnavi Prasad

    ———————————————————

  52. Deepak October 7, 2008 at 6:39 am #

    @ Deshbhakt… u selfish people of this COUNTRY didn’t even spare Insp MC Sharma who laid down his life while fighting with terrorsits .. U GIVE PAIN to hhis parents and wife by saying that encounter was rigged…

    forget abt foghting with terrorist, laying down u r life u wont evn stay hungry for ad day for this country….

    I AM SERVICE PERSONNEL BUT I STILL HAVE RESPECT FOR POLICE AND OTHER SERVICES WHO ARE ALSO DOING A NOBLE SERVICE….

    SHAME ON YOU DESHBAKT(s) of this country

  53. AKB October 7, 2008 at 11:15 am #

    It has been sad experiences to watch on TV show the retired Officers uneducated in their own self. Harsh but true. Any response will be welcome by our esteemed Defence Service officers, not with rhetoric but facts. We welcome if Government gives an block 25% high pay for Army officers with respect to IPS/IFS/IES etc benchmarked with length of service AND withdraw all extra benefits over civil services together whatsoever they are in service/post retirement. Even a 50% increase will save the government a huge money in taxes exemptions granted to defence forces etc. It will be a great service to Nation to grant that much pay hike for difficult service. Secondly, while on civil peace posts in DRDO/BRO/MES/IMA/CME etc/ posted to peace formations they should be paid at civil rates.
    It has been too much of the Blackmailing tactics to which the Army/Navy/AF serving and retired officers are resorting to. It has become really shameful for senior and retired officers to have such poor knowledge and that they are in fact misinforming the troops that post independence successive and this government has done a great injustice to them. The morale of troops is not low but greed of certain senior officers is crossing the limits expected from the government servants. As a citizen I want pose certain questions and facts to our brothers to respond. We may appreciate that knowledge of even our many journalists is limited wrt Armed forces and hype and love for safety of Motherland sway them. The pool results on TV shows are clear indication of the writing on wall that Forces are taking full advantage of sympathy coming out of ignorance of public and it sets a very-very dangrous trend and the world history has proved it on many occasions:-
    Remarks Fact
    1 What was the qualification to enter IMA as officer in Army earlier? Now you want to compare IAS with that. 12th pass for all except Degree Engineers, graduate entry etc
    2 What length of service was required to become Lt Col in 1920′s The honour and equivalence being talked about. At no stage the pay of Armyofficer was higher than ICS. It was equal to civil when they were posted to Civil services like IPS/IFS/IES etc. But Army officers got their equivalent rank with longer service as their qualification have always been lower as know. 23 Years
    3 What length of service was required for Lt Col in 1949 18 Years
    4 What length of service was required for Lt Col in 2008 9 Years post qualification given by Army at CME etc for engineers etc, 13/11 years for others.
    5 What was stated at AV Singh committee report 90% officers occupying posts of Majors were given Lt Col rank and pay. Why did army kept quit and did not object that Lt Col are being made to work at posts which are held by Captain/Major. Only to blackmail/cheat government now? Please realise you are not fighting war with enemy but poor common men. All Lt Col will work on the post of Major which were upgraded en-block
    6 When in history ICS/IAS were at same level as Army officer? You want to compare a Lt Col ( 9 years working experience at the responsibilities of 4 years which he was to do as Major) and ask for equivalence of Lt Col who worked for 23 years and drew a pay 90 years ago in a Colony. You want an equivalence higher that what was in a colony which was destroyed by Mahatama . 1924 Scales were as under:-(a) Equal work equal pay concept prevailed. When Army officers were posted to Railway/PWD/Survey of India/IPS/IFS they were given same pay as for the civilian officers. The entire civil service of Doctors in India was manned by Army doctors who draw same pay as civil doctors in Railways. The length of service required was 23 years for Lt Col time scale and 25 years for Selection scale.
    7 What was service required for promotion as AEE/EE/SE/DIG/ Conservator of forest in 1920′s when for Lt Col it was 23 years It has always been the case that qualification for entry to army were much inferior to ICS and 0ther class I services. Now it is no better. We can try that by asking Army to recruit through UPSC only having a post selection medical/ fitness/psychological examination of their own. 1920′S age limits for IES officers: AEE-0-3 YEARS, EE- 7 years onwards, SE-14 YEARS onwards. Now even after IV CPC the Lt Col were given SE in departments like MES after 18 years while class I officers were in 9 years.
    8 What qualities are required to fight wars, pay or orientation? That way a jawan will never fight for one tenth of salary of his Lt Col Do we think world wars were not fougt with less pay than more qualifired civil servants.
    9 How ICS compared with army? The difference has been narrowed down post independence. The ICS officers got a pay of 2250 in 23 years service, IPS/IES/IRSE/IFS/ARMY Rs 1350/1375. That was in 1924.
    10 What is that date when the Lt Col was ever equal/superior to even DIG/SE whose scale is being asked for? Never in Indian history
    11 Sixth pay commission gave reasoned response to all queries why Army going to press to distort public opinion on misinformation campaign? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    12 Have you studied, the subject before going to press and public? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    13 Is it not the duty to first put facts before public; before asking opinion? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    14 What harm happens if some Lt Col etc leave, as it is they are being wasted at Majors appointments as there is no work for their length of service. They are getting permanent service benefits for filling posts for short service. It will be good for country and Army, they will get better pay outside and Army can find best of the people.
    14 Why Army still continues making officers who are merely 10th pass through Special lists officers bypassing UPSC. Is it in national interest to deny opportunity to qualified young men? Fraud on Constitution/Youth of country
    15 Why Army failed to find 12000 suitable officers in a country of 100 crores or it is a strategy so that officers get faster promotions? Strategy
    16 How the benefits of Military service pay, free ration, free clubs, subsidised water/electricity/transport/travel/housing/assured admissions/school fee waiver/higher pension/ higher insurance/CSD/ reservation in jobs/training for post retirement job at government expense are to be accounted which Army got in last 50 years over and above the Civil services while their entry qualifications is much less than that of civil services/ An average officer in army gets 100% more than a civilian in pay + perks

  54. AKB October 7, 2008 at 11:18 am #

    It has been sad experiences to watch on TV show the retired Officers uneducated in their own self. Harsh but true. Any response will be welcome by our esteemed Defence Service officers, not with rhetoric but facts. We welcome if Government gives an block 25% high pay for Army officers with respect to IPS/IFS/IES etc benchmarked with length of service AND withdraw all extra benefits over civil services together whatsoever they are in service/post retirement. Even a 50% increase will save the government a huge money in taxes exemptions granted to defence forces etc. It will be a great service to Nation to grant that much pay hike for difficult service. Secondly, while on civil peace posts in DRDO/BRO/MES/IMA/CME etc/ posted to peace formations they should be paid at civil rates.
    It has been too much of the Blackmailing tactics to which the Army/Navy/AF serving and retired officers are resorting to. It has become really shameful for senior and retired officers to have such poor knowledge and that they are in fact misinforming the troops that post independence successive and this government has done a great injustice to them. The morale of troops is not low but greed of certain senior officers is crossing the limits expected from the government servants. As a citizen I want pose certain questions and facts to our brothers to respond. We may appreciate that knowledge of even our many journalists is limited wrt Armed forces and hype and love for safety of Motherland sway them. The pool results on TV shows are clear indication of the writing on wall that Forces are taking full advantage of sympathy coming out of ignorance of public and it sets a very-very dangrous trend and the world history has proved it on many occasions:-
    Remarks Fact
    1 What was the qualification to enter IMA as officer in Army earlier? Now you want to compare IAS with that. 12th pass for all except Degree Engineers, graduate entry etc
    2 What length of service was required to become Lt Col in 1920′s The honour and equivalence being talked about. At no stage the pay of Armyofficer was higher than ICS. It was equal to civil when they were posted to Civil services like IPS/IFS/IES etc. But Army officers got their equivalent rank with longer service as their qualification have always been lower as know. 23 Years
    3 What length of service was required for Lt Col in 1949 18 Years
    4 What length of service was required for Lt Col in 2008 9 Years post qualification given by Army at CME etc for engineers etc, 13/11 years for others.
    5 What was stated at AV Singh committee report 90% officers occupying posts of Majors were given Lt Col rank and pay. Why did army kept quit and did not object that Lt Col are being made to work at posts which are held by Captain/Major. Only to blackmail/cheat government now? Please realise you are not fighting war with enemy but poor common men. All Lt Col will work on the post of Major which were upgraded en-block
    6 When in history ICS/IAS were at same level as Army officer? You want to compare a Lt Col ( 9 years working experience at the responsibilities of 4 years which he was to do as Major) and ask for equivalence of Lt Col who worked for 23 years and drew a pay 90 years ago in a Colony. You want an equivalence higher that what was in a colony which was destroyed by Mahatama . 1924 Scales were as under:-(a) Equal work equal pay concept prevailed. When Army officers were posted to Railway/PWD/Survey of India/IPS/IFS they were given same pay as for the civilian officers. The entire civil service of Doctors in India was manned by Army doctors who draw same pay as civil doctors in Railways. The length of service required was 23 years for Lt Col time scale and 25 years for Selection scale.
    7 What was service required for promotion as AEE/EE/SE/DIG/ Conservator of forest in 1920′s when for Lt Col it was 23 years It has always been the case that qualification for entry to army were much inferior to ICS and 0ther class I services. Now it is no better. We can try that by asking Army to recruit through UPSC only having a post selection medical/ fitness/psychological examination of their own. 1920′S age limits for IES officers: AEE-0-3 YEARS, EE- 7 years onwards, SE-14 YEARS onwards. Now even after IV CPC the Lt Col were given SE in departments like MES after 18 years while class I officers were in 9 years.
    8 What qualities are required to fight wars, pay or orientation? That way a jawan will never fight for one tenth of salary of his Lt Col Do we think world wars were not fougt with less pay than more qualifired civil servants.
    9 How ICS compared with army? The difference has been narrowed down post independence. The ICS officers got a pay of 2250 in 23 years service, IPS/IES/IRSE/IFS/ARMY Rs 1350/1375. That was in 1924.
    10 What is that date when the Lt Col was ever equal/superior to even DIG/SE whose scale is being asked for? Never in Indian history
    11 Sixth pay commission gave reasoned response to all queries why Army going to press to distort public opinion on misinformation campaign? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    12 Have you studied, the subject before going to press and public? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    13 Is it not the duty to first put facts before public; before asking opinion? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    14 What harm happens if some Lt Col etc leave, as it is they are being wasted at Majors appointments as there is no work for their length of service. They are getting permanent service benefits for filling posts for short service. It will be good for country and Army, they will get better pay outside and Army can find best of the people.
    14 Why Army still continues making officers who are merely 10th pass through Special lists officers bypassing UPSC. Is it in national interest to deny opportunity to qualified young men? Fraud on Constitution/Youth of country
    15 Why Army failed to find 12000 suitable officers in a country of 100 crores or it is a strategy so that officers get faster promotions? Strategy
    16 How the benefits of Military service pay, free ration, free clubs, subsidised water/electricity/transport/travel/housing/assured admissions/school fee waiver/higher pension/ higher insurance/CSD/ reservation in jobs/training for post retirement job at government expense are to be accounted which Army got in last 50 years over and above the Civil services while their entry qualifications is much less than that of civil services/ An average officer in army gets 100% more than a civilian in pay + perks
    Harsh
    Equivalence between Civilian and Military Officers
    Whenever two systems are compared for equivalence, it starts from the top of both the systems and then brought down to the lowest denominator. If Joint Chief of Staffs could be equated to the Cabinet Secretary, the three Chiefs will be equivalent to Secretaries to GOI, Lt Gen to Additional Secretaries to GOI, Maj Gen to Joint Secretary to GOI, Brigadier to Director in the GOI etc. If the Armed Forces considers Lt Col, Col, and Brigadier belonging to the same equivalent rank, only then they should be equated to a Director to GOI. Ideally, if Lt Col has been put in PB4, its present civilian equivalent too should be allowed to have at least the same PB and Grade Pay. Ideally, these three ranks in the Indian Army should be separated by differential Pay Grades, the Brigadier getting equal to that of the Director in the GOI.
    The current effort to give better salary structure to the Armed Forces officers should not result in downgrading their existing Civilian counterparts.
    The reasoning that the Armed Forces are unable to attract enough number of new recruits resulting into shortage of officers, itself is a misnomer and confusing. Does it mean that there are less number of applicants for fresh recruitment than the vacancies available. If it is said that applicants could not be found with adequate OLQs, does it mean that the training process at NDA, IMA and other similar facilities are not geared to impart OLQs and create officers. If it is so, why is the government spending so much on maintaining these institutions? On the hind sight, does it mean that those who join Civil Services have the desired OLQs right from the beginning? What about IITs and premier medical institutes – are all those inducted have the same brilliance to become a global trade mark in the engineering or medical education? No, they are trained to become so. Therefore, the Armed Forces should stop cribbing about not getting enough number of fresh recruits and change its training concept on the basis of the changing societal environment. Remember that those officers too come from the same society.
    Let us look at another argument forwarded – each of the recruits joining the Armed Forces do it for the security of their motherland. Firstly, this itself is a myth as most of them join the Forces as a profession and not only due to the urge to serve the motherland. Secondly, do the Armed Forces officers mean to say that other officers in the civil services are any less patriotic? I would suggest them to correct this misconception. Different ways to serving the same motherland is taken up by various services/professions in India and they too should not be ridiculed.
    Corruption, if defined as a concept that can not be justified according to the existing set of rules approved by the legislature or executive, the Armed Forces too has its own share of corrupt officers and there should not possess an attitude of holier than thou.
    Let us look at these things from a different perspective. Why should not the Civilian officers be allowed to enjoy the same facilities and perks as given to the Armed Forces officers? How about CSD, free ration, dedicated schools and colleges, travel concessions, leave rules etc. Make the leave rules different for officers serving during the war and different for those serving at the peace time stations. The later should be the same as those applicable to any civil servant in a secretariat environment.
    Another misconception is that Armed Forces officers devote more time to their work than their Civilian counterparts – let us compare a hard working Joint Secretary in the Government of India to a Maj Gen in the Indian Army. I am not trying to ridicule the later, but then the notion that they work harder in the peacetime and therefore should be given better rewards itself is questionable. The proportion of civil servant facing war like situation from the fellow nationals is in no way less than those in the Armed Forces. At least they have guns and ammunition in their hands, the civil servants have the only power of persuasion and pen.
    At lower ranks, consider district level officers, who face war like situations every singly day and that too from their own compatriots – don’t we need to look into their rewards better?
    I hope the above paragraphs will provide some additional food for thought.

  55. meena October 7, 2008 at 11:20 am #

    It has been sad experiences to watch on TV show the retired Officers uneducated in their own self. Harsh but true. Any response will be welcome by our esteemed Defence Service officers, not with rhetoric but facts. We welcome if Government gives an block 25% high pay for Army officers with respect to IPS/IFS/IES etc benchmarked with length of service AND withdraw all extra benefits over civil services together whatsoever they are in service/post retirement. Even a 50% increase will save the government a huge money in taxes exemptions granted to defence forces etc. It will be a great service to Nation to grant that much pay hike for difficult service. Secondly, while on civil peace posts in DRDO/BRO/MES/IMA/CME etc/ posted to peace formations they should be paid at civil rates.
    It has been too much of the Blackmailing tactics to which the Army/Navy/AF serving and retired officers are resorting to. It has become really shameful for senior and retired officers to have such poor knowledge and that they are in fact misinforming the troops that post independence successive and this government has done a great injustice to them. The morale of troops is not low but greed of certain senior officers is crossing the limits expected from the government servants. As a citizen I want pose certain questions and facts to our brothers to respond. We may appreciate that knowledge of even our many journalists is limited wrt Armed forces and hype and love for safety of Motherland sway them. The pool results on TV shows are clear indication of the writing on wall that Forces are taking full advantage of sympathy coming out of ignorance of public and it sets a very-very dangrous trend and the world history has proved it on many occasions:-
    Remarks Fact
    1 What was the qualification to enter IMA as officer in Army earlier? Now you want to compare IAS with that. 12th pass for all except Degree Engineers, graduate entry etc
    2 What length of service was required to become Lt Col in 1920′s The honour and equivalence being talked about. At no stage the pay of Armyofficer was higher than ICS. It was equal to civil when they were posted to Civil services like IPS/IFS/IES etc. But Army officers got their equivalent rank with longer service as their qualification have always been lower as know. 23 Years
    3 What length of service was required for Lt Col in 1949 18 Years
    4 What length of service was required for Lt Col in 2008 9 Years post qualification given by Army at CME etc for engineers etc, 13/11 years for others.
    5 What was stated at AV Singh committee report 90% officers occupying posts of Majors were given Lt Col rank and pay. Why did army kept quit and did not object that Lt Col are being made to work at posts which are held by Captain/Major. Only to blackmail/cheat government now? Please realise you are not fighting war with enemy but poor common men. All Lt Col will work on the post of Major which were upgraded en-block
    6 When in history ICS/IAS were at same level as Army officer? You want to compare a Lt Col ( 9 years working experience at the responsibilities of 4 years which he was to do as Major) and ask for equivalence of Lt Col who worked for 23 years and drew a pay 90 years ago in a Colony. You want an equivalence higher that what was in a colony which was destroyed by Mahatama . 1924 Scales were as under:-(a) Equal work equal pay concept prevailed. When Army officers were posted to Railway/PWD/Survey of India/IPS/IFS they were given same pay as for the civilian officers. The entire civil service of Doctors in India was manned by Army doctors who draw same pay as civil doctors in Railways. The length of service required was 23 years for Lt Col time scale and 25 years for Selection scale.
    7 What was service required for promotion as AEE/EE/SE/DIG/ Conservator of forest in 1920′s when for Lt Col it was 23 years It has always been the case that qualification for entry to army were much inferior to ICS and 0ther class I services. Now it is no better. We can try that by asking Army to recruit through UPSC only having a post selection medical/ fitness/psychological examination of their own. 1920′S age limits for IES officers: AEE-0-3 YEARS, EE- 7 years onwards, SE-14 YEARS onwards. Now even after IV CPC the Lt Col were given SE in departments like MES after 18 years while class I officers were in 9 years.
    8 What qualities are required to fight wars, pay or orientation? That way a jawan will never fight for one tenth of salary of his Lt Col Do we think world wars were not fougt with less pay than more qualifired civil servants.
    9 How ICS compared with army? The difference has been narrowed down post independence. The ICS officers got a pay of 2250 in 23 years service, IPS/IES/IRSE/IFS/ARMY Rs 1350/1375. That was in 1924.
    10 What is that date when the Lt Col was ever equal/superior to even DIG/SE whose scale is being asked for? Never in Indian history
    11 Sixth pay commission gave reasoned response to all queries why Army going to press to distort public opinion on misinformation campaign? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    12 Have you studied, the subject before going to press and public? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    13 Is it not the duty to first put facts before public; before asking opinion? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    14 What harm happens if some Lt Col etc leave, as it is they are being wasted at Majors appointments as there is no work for their length of service. They are getting permanent service benefits for filling posts for short service. It will be good for country and Army, they will get better pay outside and Army can find best of the people.
    14 Why Army still continues making officers who are merely 10th pass through Special lists officers bypassing UPSC. Is it in national interest to deny opportunity to qualified young men? Fraud on Constitution/Youth of country
    15 Why Army failed to find 12000 suitable officers in a country of 100 crores or it is a strategy so that officers get faster promotions? Strategy
    16 How the benefits of Military service pay, free ration, free clubs, subsidised water/electricity/transport/travel/housing/assured admissions/school fee waiver/higher pension/ higher insurance/CSD/ reservation in jobs/training for post retirement job at government expense are to be accounted which Army got in last 50 years over and above the Civil services while their entry qualifications is much less than that of civil services/ An average officer in army gets 100% more than a civilian in pay + perks
    Harsh
    Equivalence between Civilian and Military Officers
    Whenever two systems are compared for equivalence, it starts from the top of both the systems and then brought down to the lowest denominator. If Joint Chief of Staffs could be equated to the Cabinet Secretary, the three Chiefs will be equivalent to Secretaries to GOI, Lt Gen to Additional Secretaries to GOI, Maj Gen to Joint Secretary to GOI, Brigadier to Director in the GOI etc. If the Armed Forces considers Lt Col, Col, and Brigadier belonging to the same equivalent rank, only then they should be equated to a Director to GOI. Ideally, if Lt Col has been put in PB4, its present civilian equivalent too should be allowed to have at least the same PB and Grade Pay. Ideally, these three ranks in the Indian Army should be separated by differential Pay Grades, the Brigadier getting equal to that of the Director in the GOI.
    The current effort to give better salary structure to the Armed Forces officers should not result in downgrading their existing Civilian counterparts.
    The reasoning that the Armed Forces are unable to attract enough number of new recruits resulting into shortage of officers, itself is a misnomer and confusing. Does it mean that there are less number of applicants for fresh recruitment than the vacancies available. If it is said that applicants could not be found with adequate OLQs, does it mean that the training process at NDA, IMA and other similar facilities are not geared to impart OLQs and create officers. If it is so, why is the government spending so much on maintaining these institutions? On the hind sight, does it mean that those who join Civil Services have the desired OLQs right from the beginning? What about IITs and premier medical institutes – are all those inducted have the same brilliance to become a global trade mark in the engineering or medical education? No, they are trained to become so. Therefore, the Armed Forces should stop cribbing about not getting enough number of fresh recruits and change its training concept on the basis of the changing societal environment. Remember that those officers too come from the same society.
    Let us look at another argument forwarded – each of the recruits joining the Armed Forces do it for the security of their motherland. Firstly, this itself is a myth as most of them join the Forces as a profession and not only due to the urge to serve the motherland. Secondly, do the Armed Forces officers mean to say that other officers in the civil services are any less patriotic? I would suggest them to correct this misconception. Different ways to serving the same motherland is taken up by various services/professions in India and they too should not be ridiculed.
    Corruption, if defined as a concept that can not be justified according to the existing set of rules approved by the legislature or executive, the Armed Forces too has its own share of corrupt officers and there should not possess an attitude of holier than thou.
    Let us look at these things from a different perspective. Why should not the Civilian officers be allowed to enjoy the same facilities and perks as given to the Armed Forces officers? How about CSD, free ration, dedicated schools and colleges, travel concessions, leave rules etc. Make the leave rules different for officers serving during the war and different for those serving at the peace time stations. The later should be the same as those applicable to any civil servant in a secretariat environment.
    Another misconception is that Armed Forces officers devote more time to their work than their Civilian counterparts – let us compare a hard working Joint Secretary in the Government of India to a Maj Gen in the Indian Army. I am not trying to ridicule the later, but then the notion that they work harder in the peacetime and therefore should be given better rewards itself is questionable. The proportion of civil servant facing war like situation from the fellow nationals is in no way less than those in the Armed Forces. At least they have guns and ammunition in their hands, the civil servants have the only power of persuasion and pen.
    At lower ranks, consider district level officers, who face war like situations every singly day and that too from their own compatriots – don’t we need to look into their rewards better?
    I hope the above paragraphs will provide some additional food for thought.

  56. meena October 7, 2008 at 11:23 am #

    It has been sad experiences to watch on TV show the retired Officers uneducated in their own self. Harsh but true. Any response will be welcome by our esteemed Defence Service officers, not with rhetoric but facts. We welcome if Government gives an block 25% high pay for Army officers with respect to IPS/IFS/IES etc benchmarked with length of service AND withdraw all extra benefits over civil services together whatsoever they are in service/post retirement. Even a 50% increase will save the government a huge money in taxes exemptions granted to defence forces etc. It will be a great service to Nation to grant that much pay hike for difficult service. Secondly, while on civil peace posts in DRDO/BRO/MES/IMA/CME etc/ posted to peace formations they should be paid at civil rates.
    It has been too much of the Blackmailing tactics to which the Army/Navy/AF serving and retired officers are resorting to. It has become really shameful for senior and retired officers to have such poor knowledge and that they are in fact misinforming the troops that post independence successive and this government has done a great injustice to them. The morale of troops is not low but greed of certain senior officers is crossing the limits expected from the government servants. As a citizen I want pose certain questions and facts to our brothers to respond. We may appreciate that knowledge of even our many journalists is limited wrt Armed forces and hype and love for safety of Motherland sway them. The pool results on TV shows are clear indication of the writing on wall that Forces are taking full advantage of sympathy coming out of ignorance of public and it sets a very-very dangrous trend and the world history has proved it on many occasions:-
    Remarks Fact
    1 What was the qualification to enter IMA as officer in Army earlier? Now you want to compare IAS with that. 12th pass for all except Degree Engineers, graduate entry etc
    2 What length of service was required to become Lt Col in 1920′s The honour and equivalence being talked about. At no stage the pay of Armyofficer was higher than ICS. It was equal to civil when they were posted to Civil services like IPS/IFS/IES etc. But Army officers got their equivalent rank with longer service as their qualification have always been lower as know. 23 Years
    3 What length of service was required for Lt Col in 1949 18 Years
    4 What length of service was required for Lt Col in 2008 9 Years post qualification given by Army at CME etc for engineers etc, 13/11 years for others.
    5 What was stated at AV Singh committee report 90% officers occupying posts of Majors were given Lt Col rank and pay. Why did army kept quit and did not object that Lt Col are being made to work at posts which are held by Captain/Major. Only to blackmail/cheat government now? Please realise you are not fighting war with enemy but poor common men. All Lt Col will work on the post of Major which were upgraded en-block
    6 When in history ICS/IAS were at same level as Army officer? You want to compare a Lt Col ( 9 years working experience at the responsibilities of 4 years which he was to do as Major) and ask for equivalence of Lt Col who worked for 23 years and drew a pay 90 years ago in a Colony. You want an equivalence higher that what was in a colony which was destroyed by Mahatama . 1924 Scales were as under:-(a) Equal work equal pay concept prevailed. When Army officers were posted to Railway/PWD/Survey of India/IPS/IFS they were given same pay as for the civilian officers. The entire civil service of Doctors in India was manned by Army doctors who draw same pay as civil doctors in Railways. The length of service required was 23 years for Lt Col time scale and 25 years for Selection scale.
    7 What was service required for promotion as AEE/EE/SE/DIG/ Conservator of forest in 1920′s when for Lt Col it was 23 years It has always been the case that qualification for entry to army were much inferior to ICS and 0ther class I services. Now it is no better. We can try that by asking Army to recruit through UPSC only having a post selection medical/ fitness/psychological examination of their own. 1920′S age limits for IES officers: AEE-0-3 YEARS, EE- 7 years onwards, SE-14 YEARS onwards. Now even after IV CPC the Lt Col were given SE in departments like MES after 18 years while class I officers were in 9 years.
    8 What qualities are required to fight wars, pay or orientation? That way a jawan will never fight for one tenth of salary of his Lt Col Do we think world wars were not fougt with less pay than more qualifired civil servants.
    9 How ICS compared with army? The difference has been narrowed down post independence. The ICS officers got a pay of 2250 in 23 years service, IPS/IES/IRSE/IFS/ARMY Rs 1350/1375. That was in 1924.
    10 What is that date when the Lt Col was ever equal/superior to even DIG/SE whose scale is being asked for? Never in Indian history
    11 Sixth pay commission gave reasoned response to all queries why Army going to press to distort public opinion on misinformation campaign? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    12 Have you studied, the subject before going to press and public? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    13 Is it not the duty to first put facts before public; before asking opinion? Poorly informed and greedy Generals
    14 What harm happens if some Lt Col etc leave, as it is they are being wasted at Majors appointments as there is no work for their length of service. They are getting permanent service benefits for filling posts for short service. It will be good for country and Army, they will get better pay outside and Army can find best of the people.
    14 Why Army still continues making officers who are merely 10th pass through Special lists officers bypassing UPSC. Is it in national interest to deny opportunity to qualified young men? Fraud on Constitution/Youth of country
    15 Why Army failed to find 12000 suitable officers in a country of 100 crores or it is a strategy so that officers get faster promotions? Strategy
    16 How the benefits of Military service pay, free ration, free clubs, subsidised water/electricity/transport/travel/housing/assured admissions/school fee waiver/higher pension/ higher insurance/CSD/ reservation in jobs/training for post retirement job at government expense are to be accounted which Army got in last 50 years over and above the Civil services while their entry qualifications is much less than that of civil services/ An average officer in army gets 100% more than a civilian in pay + perks
    Harsh
    Equivalence between Civilian and Military Officers
    Whenever two systems are compared for equivalence, it starts from the top of both the systems and then brought down to the lowest denominator. If Joint Chief of Staffs could be equated to the Cabinet Secretary, the three Chiefs will be equivalent to Secretaries to GOI, Lt Gen to Additional Secretaries to GOI, Maj Gen to Joint Secretary to GOI, Brigadier to Director in the GOI etc. If the Armed Forces considers Lt Col, Col, and Brigadier belonging to the same equivalent rank, only then they should be equated to a Director to GOI. Ideally, if Lt Col has been put in PB4, its present civilian equivalent too should be allowed to have at least the same PB and Grade Pay. Ideally, these three ranks in the Indian Army should be separated by differential Pay Grades, the Brigadier getting equal to that of the Director in the GOI.
    The current effort to give better salary structure to the Armed Forces officers should not result in downgrading their existing Civilian counterparts.
    The reasoning that the Armed Forces are unable to attract enough number of new recruits resulting into shortage of officers, itself is a misnomer and confusing. Does it mean that there are less number of applicants for fresh recruitment than the vacancies available. If it is said that applicants could not be found with adequate OLQs, does it mean that the training process at NDA, IMA and other similar facilities are not geared to impart OLQs and create officers. If it is so, why is the government spending so much on maintaining these institutions? On the hind sight, does it mean that those who join Civil Services have the desired OLQs right from the beginning? What about IITs and premier medical institutes – are all those inducted have the same brilliance to become a global trade mark in the engineering or medical education? No, they are trained to become so. Therefore, the Armed Forces should stop cribbing about not getting enough number of fresh recruits and change its training concept on the basis of the changing societal environment. Remember that those officers too come from the same society.
    Let us look at another argument forwarded – each of the recruits joining the Armed Forces do it for the security of their motherland. Firstly, this itself is a myth as most of them join the Forces as a profession and not only due to the urge to serve the motherland. Secondly, do the Armed Forces officers mean to say that other officers in the civil services are any less patriotic? I would suggest them to correct this misconception. Different ways to serving the same motherland is taken up by various services/professions in India and they too should not be ridiculed.
    Corruption, if defined as a concept that can not be justified according to the existing set of rules approved by the legislature or executive, the Armed Forces too has its own share of corrupt officers and there should not possess an attitude of holier than thou.
    Let us look at these things from a different perspective. Why should not the Civilian officers be allowed to enjoy the same facilities and perks as given to the Armed Forces officers? How about CSD, free ration, dedicated schools and colleges, travel concessions, leave rules etc. Make the leave rules different for officers serving during the war and different for those serving at the peace time stations. The later should be the same as those applicable to any civil servant in a secretariat environment.
    Another misconception is that Armed Forces officers devote more time to their work than their Civilian counterparts – let us compare a hard working Joint Secretary in the Government of India to a Maj Gen in the Indian Army. I am not trying to ridicule the later, but then the notion that they work harder in the peacetime and therefore should be given better rewards itself is questionable. The proportion of civil servant facing war like situation from the fellow nationals is in no way less than those in the Armed Forces. At least they have guns and ammunition in their hands, the civil servants have the only power of persuasion and pen.
    At lower ranks, consider district level officers, who face war like situations every singly day and that too from their own compatriots – don’t we need to look into their rewards better?
    I hope the above paragraphs will provide some additional food for thought.

  57. Harsh October 7, 2008 at 11:26 am #

    Equivalence between Civilian and Military Officers
    Whenever two systems are compared for equivalence, it starts from the top of both the systems and then brought down to the lowest denominator. If Joint Chief of Staffs could be equated to the Cabinet Secretary, the three Chiefs will be equivalent to Secretaries to GOI, Lt Gen to Additional Secretaries to GOI, Maj Gen to Joint Secretary to GOI, Brigadier to Director in the GOI etc. If the Armed Forces considers Lt Col, Col, and Brigadier belonging to the same equivalent rank, only then they should be equated to a Director to GOI. Ideally, if Lt Col has been put in PB4, its present civilian equivalent too should be allowed to have at least the same PB and Grade Pay. Ideally, these three ranks in the Indian Army should be separated by differential Pay Grades, the Brigadier getting equal to that of the Director in the GOI.
    The current effort to give better salary structure to the Armed Forces officers should not result in downgrading their existing Civilian counterparts.
    The reasoning that the Armed Forces are unable to attract enough number of new recruits resulting into shortage of officers, itself is a misnomer and confusing. Does it mean that there are less number of applicants for fresh recruitment than the vacancies available. If it is said that applicants could not be found with adequate OLQs, does it mean that the training process at NDA, IMA and other similar facilities are not geared to impart OLQs and create officers. If it is so, why is the government spending so much on maintaining these institutions? On the hind sight, does it mean that those who join Civil Services have the desired OLQs right from the beginning? What about IITs and premier medical institutes – are all those inducted have the same brilliance to become a global trade mark in the engineering or medical education? No, they are trained to become so. Therefore, the Armed Forces should stop cribbing about not getting enough number of fresh recruits and change its training concept on the basis of the changing societal environment. Remember that those officers too come from the same society.
    Let us look at another argument forwarded – each of the recruits joining the Armed Forces do it for the security of their motherland. Firstly, this itself is a myth as most of them join the Forces as a profession and not only due to the urge to serve the motherland. Secondly, do the Armed Forces officers mean to say that other officers in the civil services are any less patriotic? I would suggest them to correct this misconception. Different ways to serving the same motherland is taken up by various services/professions in India and they too should not be ridiculed.
    Corruption, if defined as a concept that can not be justified according to the existing set of rules approved by the legislature or executive, the Armed Forces too has its own share of corrupt officers and there should not possess an attitude of holier than thou.
    Let us look at these things from a different perspective. Why should not the Civilian officers be allowed to enjoy the same facilities and perks as given to the Armed Forces officers? How about CSD, free ration, dedicated schools and colleges, travel concessions, leave rules etc. Make the leave rules different for officers serving during the war and different for those serving at the peace time stations. The later should be the same as those applicable to any civil servant in a secretariat environment.
    Another misconception is that Armed Forces officers devote more time to their work than their Civilian counterparts – let us compare a hard working Joint Secretary in the Government of India to a Maj Gen in the Indian Army. I am not trying to ridicule the later, but then the notion that they work harder in the peacetime and therefore should be given better rewards itself is questionable. The proportion of civil servant facing war like situation from the fellow nationals is in no way less than those in the Armed Forces. At least they have guns and ammunition in their hands, the civil servants have the only power of persuasion and pen.
    At lower ranks, consider district level officers, who face war like situations every singly day and that too from their own compatriots – don’t we need to look into their rewards better?
    I hope the above paragraphs will provide some additional food for thought.

  58. Nair Force October 7, 2008 at 11:28 am #

    Vaishnavi…you have summed up the debate. Cheers…to young minds with such a fire in their hearts.

  59. Broke October 7, 2008 at 3:24 pm #

    @AKB, HARSH, MEENA

    SPLIT PERSONALITY OR ERROR.

    Do you really feel about / believe in what you have written and repeated ad infinitum above.

    I PITY YOU for your lack of knowledge about the issue.

    God bless you and guide you on this PATH OF IGNORANCE.

    Best is ”The proportion of civil servant facing war like situation from the fellow nationals is in no way less than those in the Armed Forces.”

    I wish you go for a day to Siachen or better Go for a sortie in a MiG 21, not a joy ride but a DOGFIGHT and if you dont get scared I concede to your viewpoint.

  60. Deepak October 7, 2008 at 4:55 pm #

    @ALL

    WATCH HEADLINE TODAY AT 9 30 PM

    beurocracy subverting democracy……

    WHOLE DAY TODAY AND SPECIAL PRGMEE AT 9 30 PM

    Deepak

  61. Deepak October 7, 2008 at 4:56 pm #

    @ALL

    WATCH HEADLINE TODAY AT 9 30 PM

    bureaucracy subverting democracy……

    WHOLE DAY TODAY AND SPECIAL PRGMEE AT 9 30 PM

    Deepak

  62. gs October 7, 2008 at 8:30 pm #

    Check what Nitin Gokhale has written
    http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/showcolumns.aspx?id=COLEN20080067978

    Also see what Gen VP Malik has written in IE

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/defensible-not-defiance/370083/

  63. Victor October 7, 2008 at 8:38 pm #

    Pragmatic,
    Not very long ago I had praised your blog for its content and quality! However, what has been posted by the likes of AKB, HARSH, MEENA are incoherent, maladapted and blatant misuse of space provided by you. Even cut and paste should have some minimum standard, do they want their shoddiness to become others liability for correction. Request, apply some filters on such contents. In any case, reciting cock and bull stories do not need great minds. One can live without such canard being vomited here , being illogical, repetitive and superfluous is waste of time on any blog. Permitting Rabidity on your blog is not in any ones interest, pls think over and act to arrest the malaise. It’s amazing, how can slur be perpetuated so openly? Since when has Money Eating Service become so indispensable? Are you permitting all this nonsense only because of their nuisance value? I thought they harass services in cantonments only. Be warned! Think over it PRAG, put a stop to such fallacy,on your blog. Why permit them to lower the standards?

  64. Navdeep October 7, 2008 at 9:55 pm #

    @Deshbakht

    My dear Sir. Just to clarify some of your doubts – the ‘end of pay scale’ system of determining the seniority of posts is applicable only to ‘civil posts under the union’, as the DoPT letter clearly signifies. Please go through your documents once again.

  65. nikszee October 7, 2008 at 10:19 pm #

    For all you ignorant fools the Armed Forces have not asked for the parity of LT COLs to be increased, it has asked that the parity be RESTORED AS ORDAINED IN THE CONSTITUTION OF INDIA PASSED BY THE PEOPLE OF INDIA VIDE THE CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY IN 1950

  66. vishanjali October 7, 2008 at 10:29 pm #

    all these people cribbing about perks etc should join army “Do you have it in you”. who is stopping . can youo compare left with right ?
    if no then please don,t compare forces with civil.
    comparison is always between equals and not unequals.

  67. Deshbhakt October 7, 2008 at 11:07 pm #

    @ Deepak
    Dear whatever you are,
    Fauzi ke bahhon se jyada haram ki kamai koi nahi khata.
    Yahan sab kuch haram ka hai. You claim to work for 16 hrs a day which is plain rubbish. Fau ki naukri is nothing more than khelo-khao aur mauz urao ( atleast for officers in peace stations). I ,however have full sympathi with the Jawans who are treated like slaves by the officers. And what is job content in those 16 hrs?
    Ration, school bus, MH, vehicle for mem sahib, working party for home,injection to dogs, golf tournament, mess party, ladies meet,etc etc. Is it adding to GDP of the country? Agreed Forces are the necessary evil a country has to put up with. But if they start thinking themselves as the only saviors of the country then there is serious trouble.
    For your comment on Shahid MC Sharma, I regrett to mention that your perverted thought of every civilian having sullied his martiedom is not correct. Every body is equally pained as are you for the irressponsible comments of a vote-bank politician. In fact what pains is the attempt of our fauzis to apportion for themselves the entire claim of facing bullets and getting their legs amputed. The heart of common man goes out to these CMPFs and much discredited police wallahs who have no voice, no media support no resources to buy TV Channels like Fauz can do.
    And please don’t question my patritism. It is definetily more than you.

  68. Deepak October 7, 2008 at 11:12 pm #

    @ deshbhakt…
    My dear Friend.. Atleast have some consistency in your comments buddy..

    Anyways Hindi mein iske liye ek kahawat hai

    “Khisiyane Billi Khambha Nochee…”

    So My advise to you is Jyada mut nochna Khamba Bhee Tung ho jayega..

    ha ha ha

  69. Deshbhakt October 7, 2008 at 11:24 pm #

    @Deepak
    Pl get hold of some Khamba.Come November,you will require one definately when GOM will confirm the legality of action taken by cabinet and SCPC

  70. Victor October 8, 2008 at 12:23 am #

    @ Deshbhakt

    Are you a bhakt of Desh Raj the contractor of —— cantonment? pls answer taking it to be a genuine doubt! name is suggestive of a person whose credentials are under the cloud in so far as loyalty to his Desh is concerned. you suck man, big time ! be honest , why are you so paranoid Pal ? Relax ,go, have a “Charminar” cigarette and a ice cream from De— the co—-.

  71. Victor October 8, 2008 at 12:52 am #

    P.S.

    Shekhar Gupta is partially right.<> being right ends with his apology in para 1 of his shoddy minds product.

  72. TVS Prasad October 8, 2008 at 1:02 am #

    Most of fauji officers forget is that they were born as a civilian and some day they will become old and infirm and will become civilian again.There will be no fauji wardi to put on, no fauji sahayaks, no salutes, no fauz ki mauj. They will survive in the world only the help of the civilians whom they abuse all their service life as ‘ bloddy civilians’.

    They (most of them) also forget that they have civilian parents, civilian brothers & Sisters, civilian relatives, civilian wife and children (who may take civilian professions). Their (most of them) mind is so small that call every one out side their small army world as ‘bloody civilians’.

    They also forget that they are product of a civilized democratic society. They forget that armed forces are not a end in them selves. Armed forces are serving a need of the society. This need is defining their salary and status as well as their role.

    We are not living in a medieval society , we re living in modern knowledge society, where brain rather than brawn ( brass) is more important. Here IIT, IIMs and Harvard are more in demand than NDA, IMA and West Point. These are the values of modern civilized world not just India. You can’t change values of society with your media onslaught just for getting better pay and status by the govt.

    Even if govt. succumb to your media black mail, can you change the social values and need of the society. It is not the govt. but the society which alone will decide your ultimate status in society.

    Armed Forces have a master to serve who (Civilian Govt) pays them their salary and who is to judge the performance of armed forces. Who is to decide what will be your pay and status. If same is not as per your expectations , get out of govt job and get salary and status of your choice in corporate world. With in days, you will understand what is your value and status in corporate world. If you try to pull your rank in your corporate job, you will be shown the door next day- despite of your so called past status in govt. (army) service.

    You can’t judge your own performance and decide your status in the govt. Everybody is doing its duty and getting paid for it. No body is doing charity.
    It is the govt. alone who is to decide what status and equivalence is to be granted to your down graded ranks of Lt Col and bloated armed forces bureaucracy at Lt Gen level, keeping in view all the facts and not according to your media blackmail.

    It is time that govt. should think how civil govt. servants are being given step motherly treatment vis a vis army particularly in the mixed organizations like, MES, DRDO, DGQA etc. Armed Forces entry to in this organizations must be stopped immediately and wastage of tax payer’s money should be stopped. To begin with, Armed forces officers coming to these civil post must be paid at civil equivalent rates only and must not be given any armed forces allowances which are not available to professional working in these organizations.

  73. Tom October 8, 2008 at 1:08 am #

    @ Deshbakht

    I really pity you. If you dream that “Come November, you will require one (khamba) definately when GOM will confirm the legality of action taken by cabinet and SCPC”, then be prepared to face a shock of your life in november. Unfortunately my dear friend, this time Great ‘chandrashekar” is not calling the shot. It is being done by the senior ministers, with whom your tricks will never work . “You can fool everybody some time. you can fool somebody everytime. But you can never fool everybody everytime”.

    You said that we ‘bought TV channels’. Dear friend whole TV channels under mother earth are supporting our crusade against the babudom. Never seen so many opinion polls?. The whole masses are rallying behind us. So, I suppose, you would say ‘we bought whole masses’. Then, come November, You would definitely cry ‘Army bought GOM committee too’.

    What business you damn fellow got, if army officers are partying?. If they are partying on their hard earned money, why you are burning your back?. If ladies meet or party, what is your problem?. Your feeling of jealous is really disgusting. Just that we are wearing uniform, does that mean we can not undertake social functions or play during off working hours?. Have an heart. All conventional, logical reasoning seems to have dried up in your mind, that your taking recourse to stinking lies to shamefully establish false superiority. You carry a lie in your name too (Deshbakht ?). Take the bull by its horns, if you can. Otherwise lay off.

  74. voyager October 8, 2008 at 1:22 am #

    @TVS Prasad & Co

    TVS Bhai and Co…mein to kahta hoon ye MES, DRDO, DGQA disband kar do. Who needs them? Why are they existing?

    These depuatations will finish on their own. Na rahega baans, na bajegi baansuri.

    And the tax payers will save billions.

  75. voyager October 8, 2008 at 1:27 am #

    Is blog ko bhi disband kar do. Ab yahan kucch nahin rakha…

  76. Tom October 8, 2008 at 2:02 am #

    @TVS Prasad

    Definitely you must have been sorted out nice and proper by an army officer and that can be gauged from your comment. Whoever has done it for you, he has done the justice.

    What social values you are taking about?. Hold your conscience and tell me ‘are you qualified to talk about any values?’. ‘Values’ and ‘TVS prasad & co.’ are miles apart.

    You said, I quote “If same is not as per your expectations , get out of govt job and get salary and status of your choice in corporate world. With in days, you will understand what is your value and status in corporate world” unquote. Mr. Prasad. Which world you are living in?. Please , for heavens sake, don’t consider us in your category of ‘govt servants’. Go and see how short service commissioned (ssc) officers are doing wonders in the corporate world. Have you any time analysed why ssc officers are not sticking with army?. Because ‘we have it in us’, which you don’t have it in you. Virtues, values, skills and qualities are infused in our blood at every level in our career that we are the most seasoned to take on ‘tasks’. So gentleman, we are not scared of leaving the job. Infact our main grouse was that we don’t have freedom to quit . Just see how many officers have put up papers in your organisation and compare it with armed forces?. Next time when you write, have facts with you. Otherwise what you will write will be a ‘bullshit’.

    Thanks

  77. menon October 8, 2008 at 9:44 am #

    Whether the Armed forces get their legitimate dues or not, these scavengers have cooked their goose. Hiding behind nom de plumes these guys are cooking their organisations goose.
    Trying to scavenge crumbs by pulling down the armed forces upon whom they parasite they are in fact harming their organisation and will be the objects of ridicule hereafter. Organisations like the MES will be treated like dung in Military stations because these posts will be read by many and like (manner) begets like.
    Their functional efficiency and ethics are the origins of many caustics jokes about military life and benefits. These range from the tricks they play while handing/taking over houses to the one where if the door bell rings your WC flush operates.
    They will wish they championed their grouses (if any) rather than playing spoilsport to the Military.
    Some post are hilarious and are time pass – not even worth a repartee.

  78. Trial October 8, 2008 at 12:53 pm #

    It is sad to see so much negativity on this blog. Both Army and Civilian Officers should try to appreciate the other person’s point of view. Both have very important role to play, and the nation needs them to work together.

    On this note.. an interesting article..

    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20081008/edit.htm#4
    (The writer of this article was a former Director General, Defense Planning Staff)

  79. yogendra kumar October 8, 2008 at 1:24 pm #

    Sir, apropos Shri Shekhar Gupta`s article `Chain of Command, Demand’ I completely agree with Shri Guptaji that these people in uniform are absolutely unjustified in clamouring for higher pay and perks when they don`t actually deserve the existing ones.I shall try to explain how. It is in reality a needless expenditure this poor country is saddled with especially when the government already has a huge army of Babus and its political cadre of Dhotiwallas to deal with emergencies this country has got into the good habit of falling in so often. I wonder why none of these are seen anywhere close to the areas under floods now or afflicted with other problems such as naxalism or communal violence or better still situations like when kids fall into holes in the ground routinely. I am sure something of larger import must be keeping them away from attending to their beloved `people’. But I do know when these blessed souls would appear. They would emerge out of their environment controlled pens promptly and dutifully and mysteriously to reappear only when its time to rehabilitate those affected, because that is where the moolah lies. So far as the foolish issue of pay etc to the Army is concerned , you see when you have no use for them, you need not pay them too- Pay for Work rule! You must endeavour to disband them in double quick time.Moreover the Babus and the Police in anycase need not be paid because as it is they make enough from other `bonafide’ sources that small sums paid in salary etc look like peanuts. I would be surprised if a businessman like Shri Guptaji and his friends had not thought of this excellent proposition earlier. If not, then I think its time they began to work towards it.

  80. Blake October 8, 2008 at 3:04 pm #

    @all

    Stop it guys ….

    Of all the possible tiffs on this Blog , the last thing i would have imagined would be a war of words here between the Fauj and other Orgs like MES, DRDO, DGQA ….

    Brings to fore the real issue … which is that no matter where or when you place 2 or more different groups or individuals of our country , there will always be a big turf war and a fight about who is superior … .. What a bunch of jokers we all are …

    Hence the opinions …

    “They are already having so many hidden allowances , (totalling to approximately 20000 per month for each officer as compared with a Civil Service officer including IAS) which are not avaialble to Civil Services…”

    “Let ‘em go to Valhalla ? Give them enhanced liquor quotas and close the topic ?…” (from ur fav blogger, Prags!)

    “Agreed Forces are the necessary evil a country has to put up with.”

    “Fauzi ke bahhon se jyada haram ki kamai koi nahi khata”

    “….civil govt. servants are being given step motherly treatment vis a vis army particularly in the mixed organizations like, MES, DRDO, DGQA …”

    “Questioning of pay commission recommendations by armed forces amounts to defy law of land”

    and then the Repartee …

    “The armed forces are irreplacable and it would take ages to build the morale which has been shattered by the recklessness of the Babus…”

    “Have you sent any of your children to the Army if it is such a great provider?”

    “Tomorrow he may die in battle, but I know for sure, that no one who has joined the forces will ever regret taking up that profession”

    “I bet entry to IAS is also Paisa khila ke.. No wonder we get a bunch of buffoon’s…”

    The Honest truth ? Our country is rotting , in every department , in every which way …
    We have a rotting Army, that fights armed incursions by first trying to push their own blunders under the carpet, and then “winning” back its own land by sacrificing Men like ants on impossibly uphill missions and winning by sheer numbers …then distributing gallantry awards to these duty bound soldiers

    We have a rotting polity that throws money in the middle of a Lok Sabha session , and yet absolves itself by claiming lack of definate evidence , of convicts being granted bail to attend the voting in parliament , and then being made CM of their states , and a Home minister who says every bomb blast adds to a new “learning experience”……

    We have a rotting Civil Service.. . the one permanent skeleton which the decaying flesh of this country still hangs on to for dear life…The Babus who chair all meetings of any monetary significance and who deem themselves so superior that they feel a need to show the rest of the menial ‘Sarkari Damads’ their proper place…

    a Rotting Media … which takes sides on an issue in accordance with its own cash flow and convenience. News paper that find is so difficult to stop earning monies that they have to add supplement pages to accomodate Advertising . News channels that show what goes on in ‘Big Boss” as breaking news while 20- people die under a flyover that collapsed in Lucknow ..

    a rotting Judiciary, that buys LCDs from illegal release of public money , and refuses to declare their own assets to public … of opposing lawyers who connive to buy out the witness.. and when caught on camera , have the gall to contest theit right to practice in the same courts ….

    A rotting gene pool of people , who after 3000 years of supposed civilisation , have not been able to make toilets for themselves …

    So why are we so against each other , ?…..Actually we are not .. we dont really give a damn about anyone else .. its just that we find it so difficult to defend our own selves , our own thoughts , ideologies , and actions (or lack of it), that we end up doing the only thing possible …lashing out at al others around us .

    What a JOKE…

  81. menon October 8, 2008 at 3:43 pm #

    @ Blake
    Have you ever wondered why one post is by some AKB at 11:18 A.M and same text is reposted by some Meena at 11:20 A.M. and 11:23 A.M. Devious pattern of felony? Can you trust or believe such people?
    Whenever the discussion gets some direction, in pop these busybodies with quixotic names to start a slinging match.
    SO
    Join in Buddy
    Its good time pass.
    There is a saying “Bhoj ke baad Kutte patal chatne aa jaate hain. The bigger the feast – the more the scavenging dogs.
    So when you read Deshbucked or Meaner don’t get perturbed after all
    What a JOKE…
    Come in once a while & tickle the scene. Serious discussions are wasted with these nerds.

  82. cold fact October 8, 2008 at 4:16 pm #

    @menon
    There is an essential difference between various bloggers on this blog and you. Whereas they might be,at times, writing shit but you essentially vomit it. Pl take a shot of domperidone to cure yourself immediately.
    Pl analyse the message more than analysing the messenger. You are no different.

  83. kapoor October 8, 2008 at 4:35 pm #

    This is for all those who asked ,what is so different about army and others and why they should be given special treatment(no pun intented)

    TOI article on Assam violence.
    …………..For fear of attacks, the women and children have fled to the security of relief camps that have come up in Darrang district in the wake of the past three days of rioting. And they are not willing to return to their villages in a hurry. They trust neither police nor the district administration, nor even the central paramilitary forces. They want the army to set up camps in the disturbed villages before they return. ……..

    http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Daily/skins/TOI/navigator.asp?Daily=TOIKM&login=default&AW=1223463277671

  84. menon October 8, 2008 at 5:01 pm #

    @ cold fact
    Thanx a lot shithead. Just because you scream everytime you step on shit because you think you are melting you don’t have to talk crap too.
    Cold fart is a more apt pseudonym for you.
    Cold farts from Cold fact – Good selling line for your crappy thoughts.

  85. Racer October 8, 2008 at 5:28 pm #

    @Menon

    That is an original / Masterpiece.
    wheres JUSTME, the SF guy?
    Or is it Pragmatic pseudonym?

    Britain is planning to approach the International Court of Justice against the ”ENGLISH” on this Blog. Most of the times it is pathetic.

  86. realistic October 8, 2008 at 6:01 pm #

    @ Pragmatic
    You are now blocking my comment.

  87. signature October 8, 2008 at 10:30 pm #

    Damage control is already underway in the aftermath of this editorial of Shekher Gupta. Politicians are not being crticized. Few politicians, though selectively, are being praised also(Pranab Da , Sonia Madam, Antony sir etc). Army Hq has also denied existence of any paper in circulation cricizing bureaucrats.However, IAS fondly called Babooz are still being ridiculed in various blogs though, media admonition of them has come down drastically.Shekher Gupta will be remembered forever for cautioning these in time.

  88. anonymous October 8, 2008 at 11:59 pm #

    Tell me what the chiefs should have done?
    Should they have kept quiet?
    What would be the consequences of such an action??
    Well we now have a topic to discuss keeping the real issues in the backburner..
    PB3..PB4..LtCol..Lt Gen..Pay Disparity..
    We forget that our real issues are :
    1. A lack of challenging work in the present setup.(Lots of useless work and parties and badakhanas and mandir parades and ladies meets and so on.)
    2. Lack of proper exit policy(once in you are trapped for life).
    3. Lack of proper technology (China is building trains which can cover 1300 kms in 4 hrs whereas I still travel the same distance in 45 hrs).
    4. Lots of seniority,juniority.(When I was so and so i did this and that …).
    5. Age old study materials ,techniques ,antique practices without any reason.(My father studied the same study materials).
    6. Lots of liquor which ruins an individuals life.(liquor is given even to wives of dead soldiers ).
    7. Frequent illogical transfers.(Knew of guys transferred 2 to 3 places in a year).
    8. Lack of facilities in MHs and bad attitudes of some doctors.(if u want to do your medicals its your problem and you can stay in MHs for months without any checkup being done).
    9. Non responsive attitude to individuals problems.(Your father,mother,wife and children may die so what ? you serve here in this organisation till you completely be a vegetable).

    Shekhar gupta said that we will regret our chiefs actions in the coming years for SCPC .I dont think they would have gone for all this hadn’t the defence minister been with them.It is unimaginable that they had all these guts to do because had they any they would have solved all the real issues.
    I would only say i made a mistake by joining this ceremonial organisation and i will really thank GOD if he can help me out of this organisation.

  89. PS October 9, 2008 at 6:16 am #

    @anonymous

    “till you completely be a vegetable).”

    Thank you. Good one Sir. May I send you a McVeggie burger please as a small token of appreciation ?

    Like the once powerful Minister of State (with independent charge) Maneka Gandhi fumed when a mild mannered elderly Minister Nirmal M. was placed to supervise her activities. Her angry remark ” I will chew him up”. Reminded that she was a vegetarian, Sanjay’s rich widow said ” so what, he is just a vegetable !”

  90. signature October 9, 2008 at 6:33 am #

    @anonymous

    “Shekhar gupta said that we will regret our chiefs actions in the coming years for SCPC .I dont think they would have gone for all this hadn’t the defence minister been with them.It is unimaginable that they had all these guts to do because had they any they would have solved all the real issues”.

    Very well said.The real issues, a few have been pointed out, are always overlooked. A better posting policy…,placing people of impeccable integrity in MS branches, evolving a modern work culture….,changing the culture from master servent to senior junior, would go a long way in solving many a problems of service personnel.
    Once stirred, chiefs now can bring the fauz out of colonial frame work…ie only junior works ,,seniors have already done their quota of work…..

  91. ANSHUJ October 9, 2008 at 8:21 am #

    BREAKING NEWS.
    SEKHAR GUPTA IS NO MORE.
    Why the hell all of you indulging in shit slinging in the name of an owl.
    Look at this character called PRAGMATIC,who is enjoying every bit of it.
    I told everyone that this guy is an ISI agent trying a different module to destablise the Nation.
    What a better way to destablise a Nation,than to introduce another devide in the society which is already fragmented on the lines of cast,creed,culture,language…
    This self styled philospher,reformer is trying to introduce Civil-Military devide in the society and unfortunately seems to be succeeding.
    Hell with status/parity debate.
    Need of the hour is to track down this Anti National Element and finish him.
    Thereafter we can sit together and resolve these issues in a amicable manner.

  92. nationalist123 October 9, 2008 at 9:04 am #

    From comments posted by various people in this blog one can easily make out the community of blogger ie civilised or militarised.

    I will request to bloggers from armed forces not to use threatening language and foul words as thse blogs are meant for healthy discussions based on the facts. Sometimes facts may be quite bitter and of one’s liking but that does not authorise anyone to loose balance of his mind and utter such foul words.
    At least this is not expected from defece forces who are considered an educated lot. It appears that discipline for which armed forces are known for is at stake even in defence forces.

    God save the country

  93. ANSHUJ October 9, 2008 at 9:34 am #

    @nationalist123.
    KUTTE KI DOOM KABHI SIDHI NAHIN HO SAKTI.
    Again same rant of civil/ military .
    My above comment is after going through the “healthy discussions” taking place on this blog.
    Open your antenna and try to understand what I am trying to say.
    GOD SAVE THE COUNTRY FROM FOOLS LIKE YOU.

  94. realistic October 9, 2008 at 10:06 am #

    Pragmatic is using all that is available at his disposal to discredit the services and the Chiefs. He is using “Gravatars” services to block comments that contain contents not amusing him. Because it is HIS blog. But it is not only his country!And the Defence Forces are not his own. We reserve our right to differ and disagree, even inspite of Mr shekhar Gupta.

  95. realistic October 9, 2008 at 10:21 am #

    Shekhar Gupta is right

    Yes

    Shekhar Gupta is right, when he says

    “The grievances of the forces seems to be genuine.”

    Shekhar Gupta is right, when he says

    “They saw this pay commission as one more too-clever-by-half effort by the babus to push the military a peg or two lower in terms of both money and protocol. They weren’t entirely wrong.”

    Shekhar Gupta is right, when he says

    “A.K. Antony’s handling of the pay commission issue has been pusillanimous to say the least. As defence minister, he should have fought for his armed forces and got them their due from the pay commission in the first place. ”

    Shekhar Gupta is right, when he says

    “the entire country got the impression that the soldiers had been done in by the pay commission and now the three chiefs and their minister were all fighting for them. ”

    BUT

    Shekhsr Gupta is terribly wrong and is hence out of sync with the general public, when he says

    “But now, for the first time, these incumbents have stood in defiance of civil authority as no military chiefs have ever done in India’s history.They have set a precedent that future generations of Indians, and even their own successors in years to come, will come to regret. ”

    Because the facts of the matter speaks otherwise as is evident from the following sequence of events as it unfolded in this pay commission episode.

    How the story unfolded.

    1. Pay panel: Service chiefs seek representation
    (The Hindu 19/06/2006)

    2. Plea for defence nominee in Sixth Pay Commission rejected
    (The Hindu 23/05/2007)

    3. ‘There should be a separate pay panel for armed forces’
    (The Express India 12/05/2008)

    4. Defence officers want pay anomaly corrected
    (The Hindu 26/06/2006)

    5. Army chief takes pay panel grievances to the President
    (The Indian Express 17/07/2008)

    6. Anomaly in reviewed pay commission: IAF chief
    ( Indiaid.com news 27/08/2008)

    7. Navy chief raises pay panel report anomaly with Antony
    (The Economic Times 30/08/2008)

    8. `No injustice` to armed forces in Pay Panel report: Fin Ministry
    (zeenews 03/09/2008)

    9. Defence forces take up pay grievances with Fin Minister
    (news.yahoo.com 10/09/2008)

    10. Defence forces knock PM’s doors on pay issues
    (saharasamay 05/09/2008)

    11. Antony favours armed forces, wants anomalies in Sixth CPC sorted out
    (andhranews.net 19/09/2008)

    12. Antony: remove pay anomalies for armed forces Writes to Chidambaram
    (The hindu 21/09/2008)

    13. Antony writes to PM as FM rejects key pay demands
    (Indianexpress 25/09/2008)

    14. Ex-defence officers battle it out for serving personnel
    (outlookindia 26/09/2008)

    15. Defence Forces reject revised salaries
    (Indianexpress 26/09/2008)

    And that was the last nail in the coffin.
    It hasn’t happened on a fine day morning as it is made out to be. A long drawn out battle by the forces lead by its chief has culminated in this dignified response from the Forces. This is no defiance, instead it is the most respectful way of representation possible in this country.

    Who is to blame for the sorry state of affairs? Not the Forces and the Chiefs, thats for certain.

  96. Lavan October 9, 2008 at 1:16 pm #

    GOM is sitting today to take final representation from service chiefs.They are not going to listen any thing from civilian side and going to decide every thing by tommorrow before EAM leaves for USA.
    Will that be a healthy trend as misinformation has been spread to such a proportion that they may beleive a lie told 1000 times a truth.
    God save this country….

  97. realistic October 9, 2008 at 1:47 pm #

    No lie told a thousand times becomes the truth.
    And thats why Mr Shekhar Gupta who has been dishing out raw lies flavoured with certain half baked truths repeatedly in the Indian Express has made a fool of himself in the eyes of the general public as well as in this post.

  98. Rose October 9, 2008 at 1:48 pm #

    Enough of rhetoric on ‘how difficult the army service is’ and ‘how honest and holy the army service is’ has already been written on this forum by various writers and every body has now well understood how difficult the army service really is even when posted to BRO, MES, DGQA, AFHQ, Sena Bhavan, numerous metros and peaceful Cantonments. Please say something new now. As regards the comment on ‘the country full of corrupt civilians’ you may be enlightened that the Service officers are the most corrupt lot in the country who are eating the ration/facilities of even Jawans. If you are not convinced, please key-in ‘corruption in Indian army’ in google tool bar and have a reading of 1000 pages of corruption in top levels of army. Happy reading to you and now stop painting yourself as direct descendant of Raja Harish Chandra.

    http://www.whispersinthecorridors.net/

  99. realistic October 9, 2008 at 1:58 pm #

    People saying rubbish like ‘service officers eat rations of jawans are only showing their ignorance. They dont deserve a reply.

  100. Deepak October 9, 2008 at 2:12 pm #

    @ ROSE

    There is no need for Armed Forces to say something for USELESS BUMS like u..
    Its written all over the wall my UNEDUCATED frined.. Go and see the results of Poll conducted by all newspapers and TV channels(INCLDUING HOT FAVOURITE OF BABOOOOZE INDIAN EXPRESS)…ARMED FORCES HAVE won hands down… PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY( U WUDN’T LIKE TO HEAR BUT SORRY TO SAY BUT IT INCLUDED FEW SENSIBLE CIVIL SERVICES PERSONNEL ASLO) HAVE SEENT HE TRUE FACE OF IAS AS “PREDATORS” and have voted in favour of Services…

    And reealistsic is Absolutelt RIGHT tat there is no need for any of US to react on such FOOLISH commenst and Half Baked knowledge og Yours..

    and to tell u the truth If U guys feel so strongly abt the facilities of Armed forces.. y have’nt u stopped it till now.. U WONT
    because 90%( there are 10% good chaps) of U are making money coz of that..
    U guys are in INCORRIGIBLE….

    Deepak

  101. Lavan October 9, 2008 at 2:12 pm #

    Kindly visit the following link….an interesting story about way of life in army….
    http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?issueid=&id=1594&option=com_content&task=view&sectionid=36
    wish you a happy reading…

  102. Tom October 9, 2008 at 2:24 pm #

    @ Rose

    Now you please key in ‘Man delivers baby’ in google tool bar and have a reading of 2000 pages of bullshit on the subject.

    Don’t live in fool’s paradise. Try some other joke.

    Thanks

  103. Lavan October 9, 2008 at 3:27 pm #

    Magazine| Mar 10, 2008

    army: scams

    Ask No Questions

    A Command chief is booted for cracking down on corruption

    SAIKAT DATTA
    No Grease, No Palm

    During his tenure in the Northern Command Lt Gen H.S. Panag ordered 120 Courts of Inquiry. Some key cases:
    Tent scam: Inquiry and action into the “emergency” purchase of tents

    Egg scam: Showcause notices issued to officers and men, including a Maj Gen

    Diversion of high-altitude rations: An inquiry has been ordered.

    Frozen meat scam: Issued a letter of displeasure to Lt Gen S.K. Dahiya

    Pressed for a crackdown on corruption at the Army Commanders Conference
    ***

    The February 25 directive by the ministry of defence that Northern Command chief, Lt General H.S. Panag, was being transferred out to non-operational Lucknow-based Central Command was seemingly a bald statement. It was supposed to be a “routine transfer”, though concerning the army’s crucial Northern Command.

    But sources in army headquarters told Outlook there was nothing routine about the development. Many even chose to describe it as a punishment posting. It seems Panag’s relentless crackdown on corruption in his command had become a thorn in the flesh for many of the army’s top brass. In fact, in the last few months there was a sustained campaign to rein in the Lt Gen-turned-whistleblower. Panag’s detractors finally seem to have got their way. Says a source in army HQ: “Many senior officers will be heaving a sigh of relief, including present army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor, who may unwittingly have okayed some questionable procurements when he was Northern army commander.”

    As many as 120 courts of inquiry (CoIs) have been initiated since Panag took charge of the Udhampur-based Northern Command in January ’07, most cases pertaining to corruption in the purchase of supplies for troops. Incidentally, the present army chief was Panag’s predecessor and could take some flak if the CoIs decide to question his sanctioning of several procurements in the J&K sector during his tenure.

    For instance, soon after taking charge of the Northern Command in September ’05 Kapoor sanctioned the purchase of tents for nearly two divisions that had been shifted from other commands to J&K for Operation Parakram—launched famously in the wake of the December 13, ’01 Parliament attack. The procurement, worth Rs 5 crore, would have been justified but for the fact that most of the troops had already been repatriated to their earlier formations. And this had happened even before Kapoor’s posting.

    If that was curious, questions were also raised about the procurement process itself. While rules encourage a bidding process for any purchase, the Northern Army commander has vast financial powers that give him the freedom to spend up to almost Rs 100 crore each financial year. No MoD clearance is required for contracts below Rs 30 crore.

    Exercising his discretionary powers, Kapoor waived the tender process and sanctioned the tent procurement from “approved” vendors at “approved” rates citing “emergency” procurement rules. But the bjp-led nda government had already wound up Operation Parakram, so where was the “emergency”? When he took over command, Panag smelt a rat and immediately ordered an inquiry. He’s been a marked man ever since.

    As he opened one case after the other, the pressure for his transfer mounted. Panag was informed by the army chief in December of his impending transfer. The northern commander was quick to approach defence minister A.K. Antony for relief. In a four-page letter dated January 5, ’08, Panag raised the following points with the raksha mantri:
    The posting from an operational command to a non-operational command without citing any reason casts aspersions on Panag’s conduct as an officer.

    The army chief was dismissive and did not explain why he was being transferred.He maintained he was not obliged to justify the posting of an officer.

    During Panag’s tenure, there was visible decrease in cross-border infiltration. Simultaneously, there’s been an improvement in the security situation in J&K. The army had also made the atmosphere conducive for conducting state polls.

    Cold ‘n hungry: Troops in Siachen

    Antony and senior MoD officials were initially not keen on the transfer. They felt they should not violate the mandatory norm that an army commander must serve at least two years in an operational command. In the last decade, only Gen Deepak Kapoor has served a lesser term. He was transferred to army HQ prior to taking over as the chief. Points out a senior ministry official: “It is only in the rarest of rare cases that a commander is transferred. Panag’s new posting is all the more disturbing since he had only nine months to go before he retires. It’ll send a wrong message—that fighting corruption invites punishment.”

    Senior army officers Outlook spoke to fear Panag’s removal by the top brass has already done great damage. Rules and norms, they point out, are sacrosanct in the forces and bending them without “valid” reason is bad for morale. The relevant criterion laid down is that only those generals who have a residual service of at least two years are eligible for selection to the post of army commanders. The subtext: they are expected to complete their 24-month term. Colonel Sudhir Sakhuja, official spokesperson, admits “it’s true that a minimum two years’ residual service is mandatory before an officer is selected to be an army commander”. So why wasn’t Panag allowed to complete his term? “Transfers are effected in organisational interest,” is the army’s terse explanation.

    Meanwhile, it has been reliably learnt that the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet (ACC) was forced to ignore the prescribed norms in clearing Panag’s transfer. Sources close to the army chief insist the Lt General was removed only because lower formation commanders had complained about his pushy style of functioning. But those who have held operational commands see very little merit in this. Says one officer: “If an army commander in J&K is not pushy, he’d be guilty of being termed lax.”

    Replacing Panag in the Northern Command will be Lieutenant General P.C. Bharadwaj. Ironically, the army was rocked last year by the Siachen ration swindle during Bharadwaj’s tenure as chief of the Leh-based 14 Corps. The scam was brought to light by the J&K police which has registered 11 firs and has so far effected 35 arrests. The names of senior army officers figured in the court statements made by the accused and the role of the commanding officer of the fifth battalion of the Rajput regiment (under the 14 Corps) is being probed. Many now wonder whether it would have been wiser to wait for the police to conclude its inquiry before handing over the Northern Command to Bharadwaj.

    For now, Panag has been shifted to Lucknow, ostensibly to serve the army’s “interests”. But the shocking cases of graft will continue to loom large. Panag, known as the rare GOC-in-C who raised the issue of corruption at last year’s Army Commanders’ conference, will in all likelihood fade away like all good soldiers. But what about the damage done to the institution that is the army?

  104. Sapper October 9, 2008 at 4:03 pm #

    Now, the desperation is showing in the jottings by the IDSE/ GREF blokes.

    Thanks to the blog here and at Navdeep’s, the greater uniformed fraternity can see what we in the corps of engineers go through day in and day out while serving in the BRO/ MES, particularly in those offices which are headed by GREF/ IDSE chaps.

    You try to defend your org/ subordinates against their machiavellian and these chaps come on enmasse from all sides. ACRs don’t matter to them. A five pointer CR is not a bar to them gaining the next rank, whereas you know the implications in the army.

    The worst is that our commanders continue to pander to these same guys due to their nuisance value in executive appointments.

    I hope, after this CPC issue blows over, the services will not forget the audacity of these guys. There has to be a retribution.

    And nice rejoinder, Tom #102

  105. Tom October 9, 2008 at 4:23 pm #

    @ Lavan

    I admit. We may have1 or 2 exceptions for every 1000 officers, just the way you have 1 or 2 good guys for every 1000 rotten characters. It is not abnormal if couple of stones are there in a plate of rice. But what you have is ‘full plate of stones with few grains of rice’

    So dear friend, don’t try to hide pumpkin behind a pin.

    Thanks

  106. Deepak October 9, 2008 at 4:37 pm #

    @ Lavan …NICE TRY

    BUt the problem is I cannot answer to your comment.. REASON .. THE SPACE WILRUN SHORT IF ISTART COPYING THE LINKS OF THE WAY U POEPLE LIVE AND SLEEP AND EAT MONEY/CORRUPTION.. PRAGMATIC WILL HAVE TO OPEN ANOTHER BLOG TO COVER THE LIST OR MAY BE HAVE TO HIRE ADDITIONAL FEATURES FROM ISP… ISN’T IT.. THATS THE FACT BUDDY.. ALSO FROM THE SAME XTARCT…..
    “Among politicians and bureaucrats, it is an exception to be honest, in the army it is an exception to be corrupt”, says Major General (rtd) Surjit Singh.

    HAPPY DREAMING…

  107. Lavan October 9, 2008 at 6:13 pm #

    @Deepak

    “Among politicians and bureaucrats, it is an exception to be honest, in the army it is an exception to be corrupt”, says Major General (rtd) Surjit Singh….unquote
    First of all, whom you are quoting???.Though I am not saying that Maj Gen Surjit Singh’s integrity is doubted but his love for army is also undoubted. Dharitrarastra never said that Duryodhan was wrong.
    It is universally known that there is a large scale corruption in forces . Pl go through the story at #101.So we should say what we want. By mudslinging at other services,do you think you are going to achieve what you want.

  108. ANSHUJ October 9, 2008 at 6:21 pm #

    AN APPROPRIATE COMMENT ON NAVDEEPS BLOG WHICH SUMS UP THE ENTIRE DISCUSSION.

    We all are compromising our dignity by indulging in debate/discussion with these corrupt bas*****.
    Its in their blood and it will take atleast three genrations to cleanse them.
    Why waste time persuading them,instead we should try genetic engg to achieve faster results.
    Scientists are trying genetic mutation to covert Anapheles mosquito(malaria carriers) to some other harmless species.Similar technology can be used to get rid of these unethical breeds.
    They can never understand virtues like honesty,integrity,patriotism.
    You can’t blame them because they have never heard such words from their fore fathers.
    RIGHTLY SAID BROTHER THE DEBATE IS DECLARED CLOSED HERE.

  109. nationalist123 October 9, 2008 at 6:35 pm #

    dear anshuj,

    Khatte hote hain angoor , chalo yahan se dur

    when one is not able to defend then it is better to surrender

    God bless

  110. menon October 9, 2008 at 7:23 pm #



    @ Lavan

    Odd like Naval becoming Lavan but here is some authentic news about how the common man is screwed by the people whose cause you champion and adore. But off course this is acceptable by you.
    A man is known by the friends he keeps.
    Karnataka tops in bribes in south India: study
    THE HINDU
    Special Correspondent
    Wednesday, Oct 08, 2008

    KOLKATA: Karnataka tops among the four southern States in the bribes that its citizens living below the poverty line, had to pay, to avail of 11 basic services including getting their relatives admitted to hospitals, getting their children admitted in schools, availing of the public distribution system and on account of the national rural employment guarantee scheme.
    While Kerala fared relatively well on this count not only among the four southern States but also on an all-India basis, it was revealed that taken together with Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh, these four states paid bribes to the tune of Rs. 261 crore to get the basic services.
    A study of corruption in India done by the Transparency International India for 2007 revealed that the BPL families in India paid a whopping Rs. 900 crore as grease money for these services during this period.
    The report, compiled with the Centre for Media Studies focused on the BPL households mostly in rural areas covering 22,728 families between November 2007 and January 2008. The services included hospital, electricity, water supply, land records, banking and police.
    It was found that while in Karnataka, 67 per cent of the BPL households had to bribe their way to get basic services, in Tamil Nadu the proportion was lower at 59 per cent but the actual payout at Rs. 97.6 crore was the highest among the four southern States.
    In Andhra Pradesh 46 per cent BPL families paid bribes totalling Rs. 89 crore in 2007.
    Lowest in Kerala
    ‘God’s own country’ Kerala had the lowest incidence of speed-money being paid. With only 27 per cent of its total 9.39 lakh BPL households in Kerala paying money totalling Rs. 9.8 crore to get basic or some need based services.
    “None of the services covered in the study in Kerala had an alarming level of corruption” but getting a new electricity connection, a new ration card, or police help when needed did fall in the range of high corruption in Kerala.

  111. menon October 9, 2008 at 7:31 pm #

    A study of corruption in India done by the Transparency International India for 2007 revealed that the BPL families in India paid a whopping Rs. 900 crore as grease money for these services during this period.

    AND THEY CAN’T GIVE THE ARMED FORCES THEIR LEGITIMATE DUES EVEN AFTER FILCHING 900 CRORES FROM INDIANS LIVING BELOW POVERTY LEVEL

    AND

    THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DEFEND THEIR ACTIONS

  112. Deepak October 9, 2008 at 8:22 pm #

    @ LAVAN or RAVAN

    AS usual U guys are good at suiting ur convenience, selective hearing and chosing wot suits u best.. u have blissfully ignored THIS
    “”"”"BUt the problem is I cannot answer to your comment.. REASON .. THE SPACE WILRUN SHORT IF ISTART COPYING THE LINKS OF THE WAY U POEPLE LIVE AND SLEEP AND EAT MONEY/CORRUPTION.. PRAGMATIC WILL HAVE TO OPEN ANOTHER BLOG TO COVER THE LIST OR MAY BE HAVE TO HIRE ADDITIONAL FEATURES FROM ISP… ISN’T IT.. THATS THE FACT BUDDY.. “”

    Please look at the strength of U R CLAN and look the strength of Services and then Jus try to compare the % of people involved in any scam… as i said tum sab mein koi ek aadha hee saaf hoga… there are bad fish in every pond but in u r pond its diffcult to find A SOBER ONE….i said na .. U GUYS ARE INCORRIGIBLE
    ……

    Also My dear FRIEND jyada DOOOOR mut jao …READ THIS EXTRACT FROM TIMES OF INDIA 08 OCT 2008
    ———————–
    Refugees to return only under army cover

    Nirmalya Banerjee | TNN

    Bhaktapara (Darrang): In villages like Bhaktapara, Kalitapara and Puniya, it is a peculiar scene — there are only men around. There are neither women nor children. No clatter of utensils or wailing of infants. Only an eerie silence, broken by the footfall of the grim-faced men who have stayed back to protect their homes.
    For fear of attacks, the women and children have fled to the security of relief camps that have come up in Darrang district in the wake of the past three days of rioting. And they are not willing to return to their villages in a hurry. They trust neither police nor the district administration, nor even the central paramilitary forces. They want the army to set up camps in the disturbed villages before they return
    ————————————————–

    Aankhe Khol Khol kar pado mere dost .. THIS IS WHAT ARMY MEANS TO PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY.. U BUNCH OF BAFFOONS CANT CHANGE THAT FEELING.. AUR JISKO BHEE INSAAN DUKH MEIN YAAD KARTA HAI WOHEE USKA BHAGWAAN HOTA HAI

    CHAPTER CLOSES HERE.. NO FURTHER DISCUSSIONS

    Deepak…..

  113. Broke October 9, 2008 at 8:23 pm #

    @ All

    I dont think anybody is defending Corruption.
    When the Armed Forces try to take a High Pedestal, the othrs are trying to show that even the Armed Forces have Corruption.

    Corruption is a Cancer and has to be removed from the society.

  114. prakash October 9, 2008 at 8:33 pm #

    @ Lavan

    My Dear Friend.. wot are u rtrying to prove by u r useless comments.. u mean to say that coz one or few officers from services have done something wrong so the entire services shud be penalised for it, hud not be respected and degrade them.. Have u thought that if we go by the same logic what will happen to Baboooze …

    If u dun have anything to comment then keep u r mouth shut. but please for god’s sake and dun show u r ignorance and foolishness & dun confirm to the WHOLE world

    Prakash

  115. Victor October 9, 2008 at 9:00 pm #

    ALL MY BROTHERS IN ARM,
    1. Is it not time to stop wasting your energy in replying to deranged lot from MES, DRDO, IDSA etc?
    2. They only get to see you when you are in peace station and are also ignorant of the fact that peace postings are meant to be for train, rest, refit and recoup. How do they know what you do when it comes to the call of duty? Do you think their ignorance deserve a reply? Remember they exist because we are there, vis-a-vis is not true.
    3. The kind of services provided in any cantonment, the amount of money being wasted and quality and time frame involved in supply of equipments and the secretarial services rendered by them at services H Q, s level is testimonial to their work culture and philosophy which they are blessed with.
    4. Do we need to stoop to their level? Think about it and stop responding.
    5. Forgive them for they know not what they are talking oops>>> writing, Not everyone who can write has knowledge, wisdom is all together a different ball game
    PS>>>
    @Prag, you are stretching this mud slinging! Is it within your scheme of things? Cut it friend !

  116. prakash October 9, 2008 at 9:11 pm #

    @ VICTOR.. I guess U R ABSOLUTELY RIGHT….

    keeping tat in mind I also have been avoiding to write but the sometimes it gets out of control..

    Prakash

  117. Victor October 9, 2008 at 10:23 pm #

    Lavan,
    1. The link provided by you is a slap on the face of all those including you who have been harping on an imaginary equation with Armed forces. It talks about certain people from the Army indulging in wrong doing, nothing very defendable about it! However what is different and needs to be noted is who caught them and what follow up actions have been taken. Can you give an example of similar act in your rogue outfit? There is no contest with your organisation in this field.
    2. Any wrong doer is a blot on the image of Army or for that matter on any organisation, however what you need to understand is that, in services there are checks and balances within the set up which are fully functional and no one is spared when it comes to action against the guilty. They were caught by one who is also from the same organisation, “Punishment in most graft cases has been swift and merciless. Sometimes the quantum of punishment has far exceeded the misdemeanours,” Can you claim that the same equation exists in your set up also?
    3. It is shocking, the way you people have been using the isolated case from services selectively and only the portions which suite your agenda. You talk of quota of rum and other crap, why don’t you also say that half of the entitlement is usurp away by your goons called mason, electrician and house handing- taking over uncouth.
    4. No organisation can claim that there is no scope for improvement, ours included. In your case there is no possibility of reform/improvement; disbandment is the only option available.

  118. ANSHUJ October 9, 2008 at 10:25 pm #

    @nationalist123.
    I did not mention names or civil/military.
    I just wanted to see,who considers himself a corrupt bas**** & an unethical breed.
    I am glad that atleast one of them has the courage to own up.
    CONGRATULATION nationalist123 YOU HAVE WON AN EARLY BIRD PRIZE FOR YOUSELF.

  119. Kapoor October 9, 2008 at 10:55 pm #

    source :shiv aroor blog….

    On Tuesday evening, the Ministry of Defence formally denied the existence of a sensitive article from South Block that Headlines Today put on air the same afternoon — an article honestly, violently and articulately full of hate for the bureaucracy, and packed with insider detail of just how the pay commission mess has been allowed to snowball into the crisis it is now. Denial apart (there’s no way the Ministry could accept the existence of such an article — that would be tantamount to admitting just how dangerous things have gotten), we stuck by our story and went on air with it again primetime at 9.30pm Tuesday night, double pep, through the night and the earlier half of today. The note, being called an “article” has been authored by senior serving officer(s). Well since the Ministry of Defence denies the existence of the article (in essence, a retort to Shekhar Gupta’s column from October 4), and we stand by it, I thought I’d put it up here for anyone who cares to have a look at it. These are excerpts:

    Setting Up of Committee of Secretaries (CoS). CoS was set up to look into and resolve the anomalies in the 6th CPC report, as highlighted by various Central Govt cadres.

    Armed Forces Representative Not Included In Any Capacity. Verbal assurances were offered by the officials of the Def Ministry that the issues raised by the Armed Forces were well understood by them and will be pursued most honestly and diligently by the Def Secy (a member in the CoS). Hence, they justified non-inclusion of any Armed Forces Rep in the CoS, even in advisory or observer capacity.

    Opaqueness in Deliberations of CoS. In absence of any communication from the CoS, the Chairman COSC formally sought that the findings and recommendation of the CoS be shared with the Armed Forces for them to attach their concurrence or observations, if any, prior to the same being submitted to the Cabinet for “Informed Decision Making”. No formal or Informal Response was received to this formal request.

    Cabinet Decision : Ill Informed. The Cabinet could not be faulted in giving its approval to the recommendations of the CoS. They were fair in assuming that Armed Forces views would have been objectively presented and analysed as the Def Secy was on the panel of CoS.

    Questionable Manner of Dissemination of Govt Notification of the CPC. The Govt Notification was made available to the Services HQ late on Friday (after 5.30 PM the office closing time in South Block). Further, only that portion of the notification was made available which pertained to the Armed Forces. This prevented the concerned Armed Forces officials to study the Govt Notfn at least until offices opened on Monday; and even then, unable to do any comparative analysis vis-à-vis provisions made for other Govt Services, they would not be in position to analyse the implications on parity/disparity issues for quite some time thereafter.

    Major Discrepancies Noticed by Armed Forces in Govt Notfn. While being exposed to continued “informal pressure from the bureaucracy” to commence the implementation process, the Armed Forces, with ‘patient haste’ conducted a detailed study and analysis to find “four major discrepancies” in the Govt notfn. While, one of the core anomalies was the legacy of the original CPC report, the Armed Forces were surprised that the other three had been introduced surreptitiously by the CoS itself (please remember, the CoS was constituted to resolve anomalies and NOT create them).

    Chairman COSC and Services Chiefs Meet RM. The RM, when presented the facts pertaining to the 4 Core Anomalies, was convinced of their logic and legitimacy and promised the Service Chiefs to take up the issue with the PM. He directed the officials in the MoD to communicate the same to the PMO, with his recommendations for early resolution.

    The Bureaucratic Subversion. In absence of the RM, the MoD did not send any communication to the PMO as directed by the Minister. Instead, it sent a note for consideration of the officials of the Fin Ministry. The note thus sent, diluted the Armed Forces’ case as was presented to the RM and with which the RM had already concurred. The officials of the Fin Ministry diluted the Armed Forces case even further and presented the same to the Fin Minister. The Note, thus rejecting most of the Armed Forces’ observations and proposals was to be dispatched to the PMO.

    Service Chiefs Meet Finance Minister: Bureaucratic Subversion Partially Exposed. The Service Chiefs (at least the two of them) met the Fin Minister before the Note rejecting the Armed Forces’ case could be dispatched to the PMO. After detailed presentation of their case, the Fin Minister acknowledged that “officials in his Ministry had misled him and had also misrepresented facts”.

    Bureaucratic Fiat Issued Separately to Three Services to Notify Govt Notfn on Pay Commission so as to Ensure Its Implementation wef 01 Oct 08. Three separate notes were issued separately directly to the three Services HQ (please remember, all communication on the subject between the MoD and the Services were with the Central Pay Commission Cell in the COSC and not directly with the Services HQ). Moreover, the notes were issued by the MoD in absence of the RM who still was away on foreign visit.

    Service Chiefs Meet PM. The PM responded favorably to the Service Chiefs’ presentation of the core anomalies. He also stated that he had received favorable comments on the issues, from the Fin Minister but, the PMO could not proceed to take a view as it had not yet received any communication on the issue from the MoD. (Please remember again that the RM, before proceeding on visit abroad, had instructed his Ministry to send a formal communication to the PMO).

    Service Chiefs Meet RM : Fears of Further Exposure of Bureaucratic Subversion. Service Chiefs apprised the RM of their meetings with the Fin Minister and the PM. They also apprised him of the fact that no communication had been sent by the MoD, as personally directed by him) to the PMO. The RM directed a letter drafted immediately, recommending all Armed Forces’ proposals. The same was dispatched, addressed to the PM and personally signed by the RM.

    Services Chiefs Issue Communication to All Ranks. The nature of sudden and intense media campaign which had potential of subverting the morale and maybe discipline of personnel, issue communications to all ranks in respective services.

    The following basic principles must be considered and informed view taken in the context of the issue being discussed:

    Is Govt Authority synonymous with the Bureaucratic Authority? Is Subservience of the Military to the Civil Authority in a Democracy synonymous with Subservience of the Military to Bureaucratic Authority?

    Each one in the Armed Forces have grown, since their initial induction, learning that in a Democracy, in the context of the Military’s Subservience to the Civil Authority, the Civil Authority signifies the “Elected Govt” and at the larger levels, the “Parliament” and the “Constitution of India”. On day-to-day functioning, the bureaucracy may represent the elected Govt but it surely does NOT replace elected Govt.

    The bureaucracy misled the Cabinet into believing that their recommendations were based on fair consideration of the views and logic of the Armed Forces (if it was not so, the RM, FM and PM would not have been surprised and found merit in the issues raised by the Armed Forces subsequently).

    The bureaucracy, knowing the schedule of foreign visits by the RM and PM, deliberately worked in a manner that would prevent exhaustive deliberations with the deadline of 01 Oct and thus pressurise (the pressure was brought through a section of the media, led by Indian Express and a print news agency) the Armed Forces to implement the Pay Commission in its current form and deferring the resolution of the core anomalies indefinitely. This is exactly what they achieved in the case of previous Pay Commission.

    What is most disconcerting in the bureaucratic design that they resorted to “disobeying instructions of the RM”; and “Misleading the FM and Misrepresenting Facts Before Him”. The charge of “Defiance of Govt Authority” that is being labeled upon the Service Chiefs actually should be labeled upon the Bureaucracy.

    As for the Service Chiefs withholding Notifying the Govt Order, it is a simple case of they being morally bound to apprise the Govt of their perception of anomalies and ill-effects of implementing its order, prior to blindly executing it. Once the Govt (represented by the RM and PM) found merit in reconsidering the aspects brought before it by the Armed Forces and assured the Service Chiefs of having a re-look, until it got back to the Services with fresh instructions, the Services cannot be blamed for ‘defiance’ or ‘disobedience’. Once the Govt did come back during the previous weekend with interim orders, the Services have accepted the same and are implementing.

    As far as the communications issued by the three Services Chiefs to all ranks is concerned, one ought to read the complete documents and understand the context. There is nothing in them which can be distantly construed as ‘defiance of govt authority’. In fact, in all manuals on military leadership and of late, also included in teachings on HR by the corporates, one of the abiding principles is that of “keep men informed”. This is expressly meant for men not following prey to rumours, propaganda and misinformation as they can seriously subvert the morale, discipline and ultimately operational effectiveness of any organized group and especially, the Armed Forces.

    Mr Shekhar Gupta’s contention of the Service Chiefs behaving as “Union Leaders” egged by cheering ex-Servicemen, is gross misrepresentation. The Armed Forces are denied right to form unions, firmly in the belief that the concerns of each individual are addressed by a strict chain of command. This chain leads to the Service Chiefs. The Service Chiefs are thus doing what they ought to do in a democratic setup and purely as per democratic norms which govern the interface between the Civil Govt leadership and its subordinate military leadership. Mr Shekhar Gupta has also attributed the Services Chiefs with “Open Defiance of Civil Authority”. Is he in know of or can he recollect any instance of any act or articulation by services Chiefs which any sensible person can construe as defiance of civil authority? He surely cannot. Further, the ex-Servicemen should, if at all, be complimented for expressing their concerns and grievances, not only in democratic fashion but in a “dignified democratic fashion”. He, through his column, could have actually asked other interest groups and individuals to emulate them.

    The whole episode so far, has been a classic case of the bureaucracy “subverting the democratic functioning of the state”; “undermining ‘informed – thus wise’ decision making by the Elected Govt”; and “Subverting the Public Opinion by Using/Misusing the Media”.

    The facts and their sequence as brought out may be verified by those willing and an objective opinion may only be made thereafter. The provisions of the RTI Act would surely help uncover the criminal collusion and lengths to which the officials in the concerned Ministries have gone to, to ensure misrepresentation of issues, misleading their own Ministers (and thus the Govt) with the ill-intent of depriving legitimate dues to the Armed Forces personnel and undermining their status.

    The bureaucracy, especially those associated with the Defence Ministry, during the past six decades, have found themselves not only increasingly incompetent but even unwilling to develop related competencies, to fulfill their assigned roles. As this episode clearly shows, the bureaucracy have instead, attempted to usurp the role of the Ministers (& thus the Govt) by assigning most of the “decision making” to themselves in the growing belief that in all cases of Ministerial interventions, they can effectively misrepresent facts and mislead the busy Ministers and further, that their acts of commission and omission will never be open to scrutiny of the Armed Forces. In the instant case, the concerned bureaucrats had not bargained for the Service Chiefs walking up the political masters which led to exposing of their nefarious designs and professional gross misconduct.

    It is anybody’s guess that the current media campaign is the handiwork of the same very bureaucrats in a last ditch effort to scuttle the “Informed Decision Making Process by the Appointed GoM” and to “Cover Bureaucratic Misdeeds & Follies” by raising the bogey of “Armed Forces’ Defiance of the Govt Authority”.

  120. nationalist123 October 9, 2008 at 10:58 pm #

    dear Anshuj,

    ” Khatte hote hain angoor , chalo yahan se dur ” was meant for you.

    filthy words used by one shows level of his education and culture in which one has been brought up.

    Be sure as a cultured indian i will not used such words even if someone like you poke me for doing so.

    This appears to be the precise problem of current armed forces officers that officers lack tolerence and are not ready to accept hard facts. they think that use of threatening language and filthy words is their birth right.

    God save the country from such ill cultured fellows

  121. realistic October 9, 2008 at 11:20 pm #

    Kapoor, why do you have to do it.
    Poor Shekhar Gupta cant be wrong you know. Shekhar Gupta is riiiight. Atleast Pragmatic is vouching for it, you know.
    Pathetic.

  122. Victor October 9, 2008 at 11:55 pm #

    From Navdeep,s blog

    Having been goaded into reading the IE editorial and Shiv Aroor’s defence of it, I am willing to concede lack of malice. Shekhar Gupta may even have got it right on some bureaucratic -military implications, but I think he has entirely missed the point on what’s going on.

    I also agree with him that Mr. Antony has not exactly covered himself with glory, but for quite the opposite reasons. Instead of drawing attention to, and seeking accountability from the SCPC and the Committee of Secretaries who have brought this situation to pass, he seems to have let attention drift to the Chiefs who have highlighted the problem. But this is also precisely the problem with the IE editorial. It shifts both the focus and the responsibility from those responsible for the mess, to those who cried foul.

    The Profession of Arms is nothing if not about standing up for a ‘Just Cause’. And I suspect the Service Chiefs have done just that – Stand up for a cause they believe to be Just. The Service Hqs have made too many mistakes in the past on their approach to pay related issues. Now if they have managed to draw attention to the charade that takes place every decade in the name of Pay commissions, they have done signal service not just to the armed forces, but the country as a whole. I don’t think trivializing it, is in the larger national interest.

    The article in the Observer on what the bureaucrats apportion to themselves around every CPC is merely an indicator of what goes on without public or political scrutiny.

    Some of the best recommendations of the last CPC came in the ‘note of dissent’ of Mr. Suresh Tendulkar, then Member FCPC and now Economic Adviser to the PM. Would somebody ask him to have a look at what is going on and see what has happened to V CPC reccos on reigning in the bureaucracy.

    I am no fan of the V CPC (report is on the net, on the same site as the VI CPC), but even where there was no dissent, there were recommendations to bring some sense into babudom. This included re-iteration of the IV CPC norm of uniform pay progression up to 13th year (for organized Gp A services) and establishment of a model cadre structure ie a fixed percentage of the officers’ strength in each pay grade. The former was implemented for Civil and Armed Forces officers but the latter wasn’t implemented though accepted for civil services, by the Committee of Secretaries. Therein lies the crux of the whole issue now brought into the open by the Service Chiefs.

    If implemented for the civil services, a break will be applied on the practice of a handful of civil services promoting every entrant, good, bad, indifferent or however disjointed, to a joint-secretary’s pay in a relatively short time.

    More importantly, other more professional/technical civil services will realize how they have been done in by the ‘elite services’ and could find a well-deserved place in decision making. If implemented for the armed forces, all Cols would move to the joint-secretary’s pay giving them compensation comparable to civil services. But it would alter the civil servant’s perception of his own importance.

    The lack of home-work in the SCPC report may be over-looked, but it is the attempt at quiet burial of some fair, transparent norms attempted by two previous CPCs, by both the SCPC and the current lot of Secretaries, that is at the root of the present imbroglio. Some accountability is in order, but definitely not from those who blew the whistle.

    Nor is this happening for the first time as IE says. It was the firm stand taken by a former CNS on pay issues that set the bureaucracy against him. What is probably different now is that the other two Chiefs have also stood firm. Public memory may be short, but newspapers should be having archives. IE may however have another point there. Dereliction of duty may be too strong a phrase, but inaction in the past has definitely added to the burden of present incumbents.

    As to what is going on, I am not in uniform, but what can be seen from the media, blogs etc is that there has been a loss of innocence at the middle and lower levels of the Officer corps. With the loss of innocence has also come a loss of trust of the bureaucracy and the political class. In the past, even while deriding each other, there was still an implicit trust (often misplaced) that if one were to lose life and limb in the line of duty, it was for a worthy cause or that his family would be taken care of. Now they seem to be wondering.

    Regaining that trust is going to be a much more up-hill battle for the government (and the media) than any perceived kinks in civil military relations. That may in fact be the curse of this CPC, not what the Chiefs did.

    -

  123. Lavan October 10, 2008 at 12:46 am #

    @victor,Prakash, Deepak and Menon
    Why don’t you stop writing crap first. Every here and there you have been writing that all organisations other than armed forces are corrupt. I have shown you a little mirror to drive home a message that we should be writing what we want or try to analyse the message.I have highest regards for every organisation including armed forces.
    And if anyone writes that armed forces do not deserve what they are asking,you start abusing the messanger. Try to appriciate other’s view point also and bring in arguments to counter but devoid of any material fact, you immediately start mudslinging and abusing.Have heart and have faith in the system,you will definately get your rightfull share and place in society.
    @ Pragmatic,
    Sir, I have no desire to keep my posts in this thread. I just wanted to bring this point to fore. Kindly remove all my posts if you find these out of context and out of place. I never wanted to hurt any body’s feelings,but others are also supposed to behave. However error of omissions and comissions regretted

  124. menon October 10, 2008 at 8:19 am #

    @ Lavan
    You showed me a small mirror & I showed you the larger picture. Why get perturbed with the truth.
    When the subject deals with obtaining legitimate rights you don’t expect everything written to be accepted. As regards facts and figures, it is pointless puting them on a blog. The underlying feelings are to be guaged. Leave facts to the negotiators. There is more than the eye can see.
    This is something Shekar Gupta could not visualise when the Service Chiefs stoodup for their Command.
    It wasn’t Defiance – it was the Demeanour expected by the people they commanded.

  125. realistic October 10, 2008 at 9:49 am #

    Where is Pragmatic. It seems he has left Mr Shekhar Gupta to fend for him all by himself.
    Mr Shekhar Gupta is in distress now. He has been stripped of all the false hood that he has come to represent of late. Poor chap, He is now standing out there naked all alone with Pragmatic not to be seen anywhere around.
    Can somebody hand him a piece of cloth to cover himself (an old Indian Express will also do).
    Not to worry My Gupta. You still have the option to sue Mr Pragmatic for having left you in the lurch.

  126. jezailchi October 10, 2008 at 10:19 am #

    @nationalist123

    “they think that use of threatening language and filthy words is their birth right.

    God save the country from such ill cultured fellows”

    Differ Sir;

    (a) ‘Threatening language’ is okay, it comes with the territory. When
    trying to kill the other guy, good manners seem so out of place.
    (b) ‘God save the country’ – or perhaps the ill paid, bad mannered,
    well trained, professionally sound, military will save it ?

  127. Victor October 10, 2008 at 10:33 am #

    Lavan,

    1. Do you understand the difference in desire,wish, want and Demand? I hope ,you do! demand of parity is between equals and it is my considered view that there can,t be any parity in establishment,s that you belong and Armed forces, it never was and it never should be.
    2. So my friend you should understand, your aspiration should be limited to comparing yourself with equal,s not with services.
    3.don,t forget that you are there because we are there vis-a- vis will be Profanity. you may desire,wish, or want but certainly can,t demand the unworkable.
    4.The scheming Babu,s have done what they are good at and have been doing over the successive pay commission,s with services ie down grade the remuneration,s and thereby the status as well. with this in background, I hope you understand where and with whom the issue is being contested. Do you figure in any where? Dwell on it and decide for yourself whether your kind should continue are stop wasting space on this blog. You are at liberty to make your choice of accepting the realities or els you must ponder on the old adage” logic is blasphemy to illogical”. Thanks, with best wishes for festive season.

  128. LOGICAL October 10, 2008 at 6:35 pm #

    please read the otherside of the story……

    source :shiv aroor blog….livefist.blogspot.com

    On Tuesday evening, the Ministry of Defence formally denied the existence of a sensitive article from South Block that Headlines Today put on air the same afternoon — an article honestly, violently and articulately full of hate for the bureaucracy, and packed with insider detail of just how the pay commission mess has been allowed to snowball into the crisis it is now. Denial apart (there’s no way the Ministry could accept the existence of such an article — that would be tantamount to admitting just how dangerous things have gotten), we stuck by our story and went on air with it again primetime at 9.30pm Tuesday night, double pep, through the night and the earlier half of today. The note, being called an “article” has been authored by senior serving officer(s). Well since the Ministry of Defence denies the existence of the article (in essence, a retort to Shekhar Gupta’s column from October 4), and we stand by it, I thought I’d put it up here for anyone who cares to have a look at it. These are excerpts:

    Setting Up of Committee of Secretaries (CoS). CoS was set up to look into and resolve the anomalies in the 6th CPC report, as highlighted by various Central Govt cadres.

    Armed Forces Representative Not Included In Any Capacity. Verbal assurances were offered by the officials of the Def Ministry that the issues raised by the Armed Forces were well understood by them and will be pursued most honestly and diligently by the Def Secy (a member in the CoS). Hence, they justified non-inclusion of any Armed Forces Rep in the CoS, even in advisory or observer capacity.

    Opaqueness in Deliberations of CoS. In absence of any communication from the CoS, the Chairman COSC formally sought that the findings and recommendation of the CoS be shared with the Armed Forces for them to attach their concurrence or observations, if any, prior to the same being submitted to the Cabinet for “Informed Decision Making”. No formal or Informal Response was received to this formal request.

    Cabinet Decision : Ill Informed. The Cabinet could not be faulted in giving its approval to the recommendations of the CoS. They were fair in assuming that Armed Forces views would have been objectively presented and analysed as the Def Secy was on the panel of CoS.

    Questionable Manner of Dissemination of Govt Notification of the CPC. The Govt Notification was made available to the Services HQ late on Friday (after 5.30 PM the office closing time in South Block). Further, only that portion of the notification was made available which pertained to the Armed Forces. This prevented the concerned Armed Forces officials to study the Govt Notfn at least until offices opened on Monday; and even then, unable to do any comparative analysis vis-à-vis provisions made for other Govt Services, they would not be in position to analyse the implications on parity/disparity issues for quite some time thereafter.

    Major Discrepancies Noticed by Armed Forces in Govt Notfn. While being exposed to continued “informal pressure from the bureaucracy” to commence the implementation process, the Armed Forces, with ‘patient haste’ conducted a detailed study and analysis to find “four major discrepancies” in the Govt notfn. While, one of the core anomalies was the legacy of the original CPC report, the Armed Forces were surprised that the other three had been introduced surreptitiously by the CoS itself (please remember, the CoS was constituted to resolve anomalies and NOT create them).

    Chairman COSC and Services Chiefs Meet RM. The RM, when presented the facts pertaining to the 4 Core Anomalies, was convinced of their logic and legitimacy and promised the Service Chiefs to take up the issue with the PM. He directed the officials in the MoD to communicate the same to the PMO, with his recommendations for early resolution.

    The Bureaucratic Subversion. In absence of the RM, the MoD did not send any communication to the PMO as directed by the Minister. Instead, it sent a note for consideration of the officials of the Fin Ministry. The note thus sent, diluted the Armed Forces’ case as was presented to the RM and with which the RM had already concurred. The officials of the Fin Ministry diluted the Armed Forces case even further and presented the same to the Fin Minister. The Note, thus rejecting most of the Armed Forces’ observations and proposals was to be dispatched to the PMO.

    Service Chiefs Meet Finance Minister: Bureaucratic Subversion Partially Exposed. The Service Chiefs (at least the two of them) met the Fin Minister before the Note rejecting the Armed Forces’ case could be dispatched to the PMO. After detailed presentation of their case, the Fin Minister acknowledged that “officials in his Ministry had misled him and had also misrepresented facts”.

    Bureaucratic Fiat Issued Separately to Three Services to Notify Govt Notfn on Pay Commission so as to Ensure Its Implementation wef 01 Oct 08. Three separate notes were issued separately directly to the three Services HQ (please remember, all communication on the subject between the MoD and the Services were with the Central Pay Commission Cell in the COSC and not directly with the Services HQ). Moreover, the notes were issued by the MoD in absence of the RM who still was away on foreign visit.

    Service Chiefs Meet PM. The PM responded favorably to the Service Chiefs’ presentation of the core anomalies. He also stated that he had received favorable comments on the issues, from the Fin Minister but, the PMO could not proceed to take a view as it had not yet received any communication on the issue from the MoD. (Please remember again that the RM, before proceeding on visit abroad, had instructed his Ministry to send a formal communication to the PMO).

    Service Chiefs Meet RM : Fears of Further Exposure of Bureaucratic Subversion. Service Chiefs apprised the RM of their meetings with the Fin Minister and the PM. They also apprised him of the fact that no communication had been sent by the MoD, as personally directed by him) to the PMO. The RM directed a letter drafted immediately, recommending all Armed Forces’ proposals. The same was dispatched, addressed to the PM and personally signed by the RM.

    Services Chiefs Issue Communication to All Ranks. The nature of sudden and intense media campaign which had potential of subverting the morale and maybe discipline of personnel, issue communications to all ranks in respective services.

    The following basic principles must be considered and informed view taken in the context of the issue being discussed:

    Is Govt Authority synonymous with the Bureaucratic Authority? Is Subservience of the Military to the Civil Authority in a Democracy synonymous with Subservience of the Military to Bureaucratic Authority?

    Each one in the Armed Forces have grown, since their initial induction, learning that in a Democracy, in the context of the Military’s Subservience to the Civil Authority, the Civil Authority signifies the “Elected Govt” and at the larger levels, the “Parliament” and the “Constitution of India”. On day-to-day functioning, the bureaucracy may represent the elected Govt but it surely does NOT replace elected Govt.

    The bureaucracy misled the Cabinet into believing that their recommendations were based on fair consideration of the views and logic of the Armed Forces (if it was not so, the RM, FM and PM would not have been surprised and found merit in the issues raised by the Armed Forces subsequently).

    The bureaucracy, knowing the schedule of foreign visits by the RM and PM, deliberately worked in a manner that would prevent exhaustive deliberations with the deadline of 01 Oct and thus pressurise (the pressure was brought through a section of the media, led by Indian Express and a print news agency) the Armed Forces to implement the Pay Commission in its current form and deferring the resolution of the core anomalies indefinitely. This is exactly what they achieved in the case of previous Pay Commission.

    What is most disconcerting in the bureaucratic design that they resorted to “disobeying instructions of the RM”; and “Misleading the FM and Misrepresenting Facts Before Him”. The charge of “Defiance of Govt Authority” that is being labeled upon the Service Chiefs actually should be labeled upon the Bureaucracy.

    As for the Service Chiefs withholding Notifying the Govt Order, it is a simple case of they being morally bound to apprise the Govt of their perception of anomalies and ill-effects of implementing its order, prior to blindly executing it. Once the Govt (represented by the RM and PM) found merit in reconsidering the aspects brought before it by the Armed Forces and assured the Service Chiefs of having a re-look, until it got back to the Services with fresh instructions, the Services cannot be blamed for ‘defiance’ or ‘disobedience’. Once the Govt did come back during the previous weekend with interim orders, the Services have accepted the same and are implementing.

    As far as the communications issued by the three Services Chiefs to all ranks is concerned, one ought to read the complete documents and understand the context. There is nothing in them which can be distantly construed as ‘defiance of govt authority’. In fact, in all manuals on military leadership and of late, also included in teachings on HR by the corporates, one of the abiding principles is that of “keep men informed”. This is expressly meant for men not following prey to rumours, propaganda and misinformation as they can seriously subvert the morale, discipline and ultimately operational effectiveness of any organized group and especially, the Armed Forces.

    Mr Shekhar Gupta’s contention of the Service Chiefs behaving as “Union Leaders” egged by cheering ex-Servicemen, is gross misrepresentation. The Armed Forces are denied right to form unions, firmly in the belief that the concerns of each individual are addressed by a strict chain of command. This chain leads to the Service Chiefs. The Service Chiefs are thus doing what they ought to do in a democratic setup and purely as per democratic norms which govern the interface between the Civil Govt leadership and its subordinate military leadership. Mr Shekhar Gupta has also attributed the Services Chiefs with “Open Defiance of Civil Authority”. Is he in know of or can he recollect any instance of any act or articulation by services Chiefs which any sensible person can construe as defiance of civil authority? He surely cannot. Further, the ex-Servicemen should, if at all, be complimented for expressing their concerns and grievances, not only in democratic fashion but in a “dignified democratic fashion”. He, through his column, could have actually asked other interest groups and individuals to emulate them.

    The whole episode so far, has been a classic case of the bureaucracy “subverting the democratic functioning of the state”; “undermining ‘informed – thus wise’ decision making by the Elected Govt”; and “Subverting the Public Opinion by Using/Misusing the Media”.

    The facts and their sequence as brought out may be verified by those willing and an objective opinion may only be made thereafter. The provisions of the RTI Act would surely help uncover the criminal collusion and lengths to which the officials in the concerned Ministries have gone to, to ensure misrepresentation of issues, misleading their own Ministers (and thus the Govt) with the ill-intent of depriving legitimate dues to the Armed Forces personnel and undermining their status.

    The bureaucracy, especially those associated with the Defence Ministry, during the past six decades, have found themselves not only increasingly incompetent but even unwilling to develop related competencies, to fulfill their assigned roles. As this episode clearly shows, the bureaucracy have instead, attempted to usurp the role of the Ministers (& thus the Govt) by assigning most of the “decision making” to themselves in the growing belief that in all cases of Ministerial interventions, they can effectively misrepresent facts and mislead the busy Ministers and further, that their acts of commission and omission will never be open to scrutiny of the Armed Forces. In the instant case, the concerned bureaucrats had not bargained for the Service Chiefs walking up the political masters which led to exposing of their nefarious designs and professional gross misconduct.

    It is anybody’s guess that the current media campaign is the handiwork of the same very bureaucrats in a last ditch effort to scuttle the “Informed Decision Making Process by the Appointed GoM” and to “Cover Bureaucratic Misdeeds & Follies” by raising the bogey of “Armed Forces’ Defiance of the Govt Authority”.

  129. not pragmatic at all October 10, 2008 at 8:30 pm #

    who wants logic and equality

    we have desolation and call this peace

    all pay commissions are nothing but an exercise in brow beating the other guy…settle score boys..next turn after 10 years

    surely the rti act will be firmer then… so maybe this is their last stand

    up up the indian democracy and the rti act

  130. Digi October 11, 2008 at 9:10 am #

    source :shiv aroor blog….

    On Tuesday evening, the Ministry of Defence formally denied the existence of a sensitive article from South Block that Headlines Today put on air the same afternoon — an article honestly, violently and articulately full of hate for the bureaucracy, and packed with insider detail of just how the pay commission mess has been allowed to snowball into the crisis it is now. Denial apart (there’s no way the Ministry could accept the existence of such an article — that would be tantamount to admitting just how dangerous things have gotten), we stuck by our story and went on air with it again primetime at 9.30pm Tuesday night, double pep, through the night and the earlier half of today. The note, being called an “article” has been authored by senior serving officer(s). Well since the Ministry of Defence denies the existence of the article (in essence, a retort to Shekhar Gupta’s column from October 4), and we stand by it, I thought I’d put it up here for anyone who cares to have a look at it. These are excerpts:

    Setting Up of Committee of Secretaries (CoS). CoS was set up to look into and resolve the anomalies in the 6th CPC report, as highlighted by various Central Govt cadres.

    Armed Forces Representative Not Included In Any Capacity. Verbal assurances were offered by the officials of the Def Ministry that the issues raised by the Armed Forces were well understood by them and will be pursued most honestly and diligently by the Def Secy (a member in the CoS). Hence, they justified non-inclusion of any Armed Forces Rep in the CoS, even in advisory or observer capacity.

    Opaqueness in Deliberations of CoS. In absence of any communication from the CoS, the Chairman COSC formally sought that the findings and recommendation of the CoS be shared with the Armed Forces for them to attach their concurrence or observations, if any, prior to the same being submitted to the Cabinet for “Informed Decision Making”. No formal or Informal Response was received to this formal request.

    Cabinet Decision : Ill Informed. The Cabinet could not be faulted in giving its approval to the recommendations of the CoS. They were fair in assuming that Armed Forces views would have been objectively presented and analysed as the Def Secy was on the panel of CoS.

    Questionable Manner of Dissemination of Govt Notification of the CPC. The Govt Notification was made available to the Services HQ late on Friday (after 5.30 PM the office closing time in South Block). Further, only that portion of the notification was made available which pertained to the Armed Forces. This prevented the concerned Armed Forces officials to study the Govt Notfn at least until offices opened on Monday; and even then, unable to do any comparative analysis vis-à-vis provisions made for other Govt Services, they would not be in position to analyse the implications on parity/disparity issues for quite some time thereafter.

    Major Discrepancies Noticed by Armed Forces in Govt Notfn. While being exposed to continued “informal pressure from the bureaucracy” to commence the implementation process, the Armed Forces, with ‘patient haste’ conducted a detailed study and analysis to find “four major discrepancies” in the Govt notfn. While, one of the core anomalies was the legacy of the original CPC report, the Armed Forces were surprised that the other three had been introduced surreptitiously by the CoS itself (please remember, the CoS was constituted to resolve anomalies and NOT create them).

    Chairman COSC and Services Chiefs Meet RM. The RM, when presented the facts pertaining to the 4 Core Anomalies, was convinced of their logic and legitimacy and promised the Service Chiefs to take up the issue with the PM. He directed the officials in the MoD to communicate the same to the PMO, with his recommendations for early resolution.

    The Bureaucratic Subversion. In absence of the RM, the MoD did not send any communication to the PMO as directed by the Minister. Instead, it sent a note for consideration of the officials of the Fin Ministry. The note thus sent, diluted the Armed Forces’ case as was presented to the RM and with which the RM had already concurred. The officials of the Fin Ministry diluted the Armed Forces case even further and presented the same to the Fin Minister. The Note, thus rejecting most of the Armed Forces’ observations and proposals was to be dispatched to the PMO.

    Service Chiefs Meet Finance Minister: Bureaucratic Subversion Partially Exposed. The Service Chiefs (at least the two of them) met the Fin Minister before the Note rejecting the Armed Forces’ case could be dispatched to the PMO. After detailed presentation of their case, the Fin Minister acknowledged that “officials in his Ministry had misled him and had also misrepresented facts”.

    Bureaucratic Fiat Issued Separately to Three Services to Notify Govt Notfn on Pay Commission so as to Ensure Its Implementation wef 01 Oct 08. Three separate notes were issued separately directly to the three Services HQ (please remember, all communication on the subject between the MoD and the Services were with the Central Pay Commission Cell in the COSC and not directly with the Services HQ). Moreover, the notes were issued by the MoD in absence of the RM who still was away on foreign visit.

    Service Chiefs Meet PM. The PM responded favorably to the Service Chiefs’ presentation of the core anomalies. He also stated that he had received favorable comments on the issues, from the Fin Minister but, the PMO could not proceed to take a view as it had not yet received any communication on the issue from the MoD. (Please remember again that the RM, before proceeding on visit abroad, had instructed his Ministry to send a formal communication to the PMO).

    Service Chiefs Meet RM : Fears of Further Exposure of Bureaucratic Subversion. Service Chiefs apprised the RM of their meetings with the Fin Minister and the PM. They also apprised him of the fact that no communication had been sent by the MoD, as personally directed by him) to the PMO. The RM directed a letter drafted immediately, recommending all Armed Forces’ proposals. The same was dispatched, addressed to the PM and personally signed by the RM.

    Services Chiefs Issue Communication to All Ranks. The nature of sudden and intense media campaign which had potential of subverting the morale and maybe discipline of personnel, issue communications to all ranks in respective services.

    The following basic principles must be considered and informed view taken in the context of the issue being discussed:

    Is Govt Authority synonymous with the Bureaucratic Authority? Is Subservience of the Military to the Civil Authority in a Democracy synonymous with Subservience of the Military to Bureaucratic Authority?

    Each one in the Armed Forces have grown, since their initial induction, learning that in a Democracy, in the context of the Military’s Subservience to the Civil Authority, the Civil Authority signifies the “Elected Govt” and at the larger levels, the “Parliament” and the “Constitution of India”. On day-to-day functioning, the bureaucracy may represent the elected Govt but it surely does NOT replace elected Govt.

    The bureaucracy misled the Cabinet into believing that their recommendations were based on fair consideration of the views and logic of the Armed Forces (if it was not so, the RM, FM and PM would not have been surprised and found merit in the issues raised by the Armed Forces subsequently).

    The bureaucracy, knowing the schedule of foreign visits by the RM and PM, deliberately worked in a manner that would prevent exhaustive deliberations with the deadline of 01 Oct and thus pressurise (the pressure was brought through a section of the media, led by Indian Express and a print news agency) the Armed Forces to implement the Pay Commission in its current form and deferring the resolution of the core anomalies indefinitely. This is exactly what they achieved in the case of previous Pay Commission.

    What is most disconcerting in the bureaucratic design that they resorted to “disobeying instructions of the RM”; and “Misleading the FM and Misrepresenting Facts Before Him”. The charge of “Defiance of Govt Authority” that is being labeled upon the Service Chiefs actually should be labeled upon the Bureaucracy.

    As for the Service Chiefs withholding Notifying the Govt Order, it is a simple case of they being morally bound to apprise the Govt of their perception of anomalies and ill-effects of implementing its order, prior to blindly executing it. Once the Govt (represented by the RM and PM) found merit in reconsidering the aspects brought before it by the Armed Forces and assured the Service Chiefs of having a re-look, until it got back to the Services with fresh instructions, the Services cannot be blamed for ‘defiance’ or ‘disobedience’. Once the Govt did come back during the previous weekend with interim orders, the Services have accepted the same and are implementing.

    As far as the communications issued by the three Services Chiefs to all ranks is concerned, one ought to read the complete documents and understand the context. There is nothing in them which can be distantly construed as ‘defiance of govt authority’. In fact, in all manuals on military leadership and of late, also included in teachings on HR by the corporates, one of the abiding principles is that of “keep men informed”. This is expressly meant for men not following prey to rumours, propaganda and misinformation as they can seriously subvert the morale, discipline and ultimately operational effectiveness of any organized group and especially, the Armed Forces.

    Mr Shekhar Gupta’s contention of the Service Chiefs behaving as “Union Leaders” egged by cheering ex-Servicemen, is gross misrepresentation. The Armed Forces are denied right to form unions, firmly in the belief that the concerns of each individual are addressed by a strict chain of command. This chain leads to the Service Chiefs. The Service Chiefs are thus doing what they ought to do in a democratic setup and purely as per democratic norms which govern the interface between the Civil Govt leadership and its subordinate military leadership. Mr Shekhar Gupta has also attributed the Services Chiefs with “Open Defiance of Civil Authority”. Is he in know of or can he recollect any instance of any act or articulation by services Chiefs which any sensible person can construe as defiance of civil authority? He surely cannot. Further, the ex-Servicemen should, if at all, be complimented for expressing their concerns and grievances, not only in democratic fashion but in a “dignified democratic fashion”. He, through his column, could have actually asked other interest groups and individuals to emulate them.

    The whole episode so far, has been a classic case of the bureaucracy “subverting the democratic functioning of the state”; “undermining ‘informed – thus wise’ decision making by the Elected Govt”; and “Subverting the Public Opinion by Using/Misusing the Media”.

    The facts and their sequence as brought out may be verified by those willing and an objective opinion may only be made thereafter. The provisions of the RTI Act would surely help uncover the criminal collusion and lengths to which the officials in the concerned Ministries have gone to, to ensure misrepresentation of issues, misleading their own Ministers (and thus the Govt) with the ill-intent of depriving legitimate dues to the Armed Forces personnel and undermining their status.

    The bureaucracy, especially those associated with the Defence Ministry, during the past six decades, have found themselves not only increasingly incompetent but even unwilling to develop related competencies, to fulfill their assigned roles. As this episode clearly shows, the bureaucracy have instead, attempted to usurp the role of the Ministers (& thus the Govt) by assigning most of the “decision making” to themselves in the growing belief that in all cases of Ministerial interventions, they can effectively misrepresent facts and mislead the busy Ministers and further, that their acts of commission and omission will never be open to scrutiny of the Armed Forces. In the instant case, the concerned bureaucrats had not bargained for the Service Chiefs walking up the political masters which led to exposing of their nefarious designs and professional gross misconduct.

    It is anybody’s guess that the current media campaign is the handiwork of the same very bureaucrats in a last ditch effort to scuttle the “Informed Decision Making Process by the Appointed GoM” and to “Cover Bureaucratic Misdeeds & Follies” by raising the bogey of “Armed Forces’ Defiance of the Govt Authority”.

  131. ANSHUJ October 11, 2008 at 12:57 pm #

    @Dear Prag.

    Disappointed by the way this issue of pay commission has unfolded.
    You people couldn’t assess the Armed Forces reaction correctly and relied too heavily on media without realising that its a two edged weapon.
    Now the entire gameplan has come in open and has rendered you people speechless.

    NOW THAT GAME IS OVER,DISCLOSE YOUR IDENTITY AND CLOSE THIS BLOG .

  132. realistic October 11, 2008 at 2:38 pm #

    To,
    The Editor
    Indian Express.
    Sir,
    For some time it has been evident that the Indian Express’ standards have been steadily deteriorating. This was confirmed by the insensitive, craven editorial a few weeks ago which drew a righteous response. If further confirmation was required it was provided by Shekhar Gupta’s lead article, “Chain of command…” . He observes that “Soon enough, there will be a civilian riposte, and unfortunately it could take away from the armed forces and their future chiefs some of the autonomy in decision-making, even small purchasing powers, that they have won in tiny parcels in a six-decade war of attrition. This pay commission episode will now be invoked by stronger governments, and certainly better defence ministers — as almost anybody would be after Antony — to “cut the brass to size” with the argument, “remember how they behaved over that pay commission?” Was he being the spokesman for the babus by holding out this threat? (His well known dislike for South Indians is evident here!)
    There has been a virtual tsunami of responses to this article and I am sure what is circulated on the net is only a fraction of the outpouring of indignation, which demonstrates the depth and extent of anguish of the citizenry of the country. Most of them must have been consigned to the trash can – like this one will. Unfortunately, Down Under I cannot read Indian newspapers and am totally dependent on the internet.

    With a dwindling subscriber base due to aggressive marketing and slick production by the ‘Times of India’ and other papers, he has been masquerading as a crusader of ‘journalism of courage’ by being “free, frank and forthright”. The inability to start a TV news channel forced him to host an inane talk show, “Walk the talk”, courtesy NDTV. Building memorials to the dead soldiers, (to which he personally did not contribute a penny himself) that was funded by the generosity of patriotic readers does not give him the license to insult living soldiers/ veterans by publicly denigrating the three Chiefs, when he is ignorant of the functioning of the services.

    This ignorance is further on show as he has rattled off a few names of some well known Chiefs. He has forgotten one who like Sam Manekshaw stood up to a formidable PM (and RM) Indira Gandhi without the support of the two fellow chiefs, and got away by winning the battle for ‘free rations’ for officers, even though he himself was not a beneficiary. Many would know that Indira Gandhi then sought to replace him in the same way that Vishnu Bhagwat was replaced by George Fernandez. Fortunately for the IN (and India), the dramatis personae involved were true gentlemen and made of sterner stuff. When the aircraft landed clandestinely at night to fetch the “reliever” to Delhi, he informed the PM over the telephone, “unless my Chief orders me to come to Delhi, I will stay where I am”– and thereby defused an explosive situation. The two officers I refer to are (both late) Admiral Ronnie Pereira and Vice Admiral Vivian Barboza– both of whom are remembered with fondness and pride by all naval personnel of that era. I am glad that my friend, Faggy Mehta together with Deepak Kapoor and Fali Major are cast in the same mould. They have closed ranks and stood shoulder to shoulder to get justice for the men and women they command, backed by an RM who seems to know where his true strengths lie. More power to all of them.

    The two cornerstones of military ethos are honour and loyalty (i.e. to the country, to the Service, to the unit). Contrary to what the babu thinks, loyalty is not a one-way street. It goes upwards and downwards: junior to senior and senior to junior. In following the axiom, “yours not to reason why; but to do or die”, it is implicit that the senior would always do the right thing. What the CNS and the other chiefs have demonstrated (reciprocated) is their loyalty to their subordinates, by taking up cudgels on their behalf. The Chetwodian motto encompasses this. I hope the UPA has the sense to reciprocate their loyalty in the same fashion.

    As I was ‘writing’ this, the news came over the BBC of the brutal killing of a close friend who was on the staff course at the DSSC with me. General Janaka Pereira of the Sri Lankan Army and his wife died in Colombo in a bomb blast on Monday. No doubt it happened in our backyard and not at home. It could well have happened to one of my erstwhile Indian colleagues, still in service. Does Shekhar Gupta or any of his bureaucratic cohorts know that people like Janaka lay their lives on the line every day, regardless of their rank – and the loss of life is no less poignant. Right now, somewhere some wife, mother, sister or daughter is mourning the loss of a loved one while people like Shekhar Gupta sermonize on what constitutes proper behavior for soldiers.

    In days gone by, the soldier was placed on a pedestal as the call to arms was the noblest profession. Prompted by jealousy, the wily babu has been steadily chipping away at this pedestal for the past 60 years and has virtually succeeded in toppling him from that lofty position. One has only to recall the matrimonial columns of those days and look at the same columns today to realize this. Justice Srikrishna and the Cabinet Secretary, aided by Shekhar Gupta and his ilk have done what the ISI and the Pakistani establishment could not do in all this time ; sow the seeds of indiscipline. Let there not be any doubt about the repercussions which have already manifested itself in the BSF, Coast Guard Commandants refusing to take orders from the Army and Navy officers, who until yesterday were senior to them. The IAS is even now trying to sow the seeds of discord in the rank and file, with the intent to make them rebel against their officers. All this is being orchestrated by a special “DIRTY TRICKS DEPARTMENT” called the Department of Personnel and Training, headed by a Machiavellian secretary. This is the department which has consistently frustrated efforts to have a separate pay commission for the armed forces or even have a representative on the central pay commissions. Why is this demand inconceivable when the armed forces are always expected to conduct themselves differently from the rest – they even have their own unique justice system comprising summary trials and courts martial, mandated by Acts of Parliament? It is because of this justice system that army personnel involved in various scams have been tried and punished while their civilian collaborators (and co– accused) like George Fernandez and the like, still roam free. He still has a chance to redeem himself by issuing a public apology through his paper.

    Courtesy Carl H Gomes from Report My Signal-Blog

  133. realistic October 11, 2008 at 2:40 pm #

    To,
    Shri Shekhar Gupta,’Indian Express’,New Delhi.
    “REVENGE OF THE ‘PETTIFOGGERS”
    Sir,
    The ‘inspired’ lead editorial in IE on 3 September, severely admonished the Armed Forces for their temerity in seeking a fair deal, for retaining their pre-existing parity with the “superior” civil services. Now your ‘op-ed, with screaming head-line “DisService Chiefs” (IE, 4/10/2008), unabashedly becomes a vehicle to convey to the ‘offending’ soldier, a dire warning and a threat of the oncoming retribution from these ‘superiors’- “behave or else!” A great role indeed, for the “Journalism of Courage”!

    Moral percepts are credible only if seen as honest and sincere; otherwise these are treated as so much humbug, and sophistry. Notwithstanding many column-inches of the ‘op-ed’ admittedly proving your record of support for the Armed Forces, you have failed to examine the issue on it’s merit – your failure lies in not seeking answers to some basic questions, before castigating the Service Chiefs for doing their bounden duty. First, what National imperatives dictated at this point of time, that the pre-existing civil/military equations be distorted to the detriment of the military ? Were the operational and moral implications of this disturbance analysed, understood and discussed with those responsible for the country’s defence ? Second, Who is responsible (and accountable) to let things slide to such a desperate pass, when the Chiefs have been making their representations right from the MoD upwards, to the PM ? And most importantly, exactly which individual(s) is/are responsible (and accountable) for the distortions and skullduggary in the proceedings, after the Cabinet had approved the 6th CPC report ? As the self-appointed ‘guardians of National Interest’, it was morally incumbant on you to obtain the answers, before insulting the Chiefs.

    Statute restricts the Fundamental Rights of speech and assembly, for the soldier, and thus it the institutional duty of the Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee to be, what you call the ‘union leader’ of the Indian Armed Forces and of the Service Chiefs, for their Services. It should be a matter for great satisfaction and pride for all thinking citizens, that our Chiefs have fulfilled their bounden duty of safeguarding the interests of those they command, and the three Services speak with one voice. This is the ‘jointness’, for which the armed forces world-over, strive. It is too bad, if those with who place the country’s interests after personal and parochial interests do not like it; and shame on those, who for a moment cast aspertions on the staunch loyalty, fidelity and honour of the Indian Armed Forces. Administering their commands and and keeping all ranks informed is an established command function. So this contrived alarm and brouhaha over normal informatory signals sent by Service HQ to Commands is nothing else but pettifogging by ill-minded, who have no intimate knowledge of Services functioning. All honour to the Chiefs !

    Soldiers with high ‘elan’ win battles; those with low self-esteem, don’t! Let Indian Armed Forces be proud of themselves, their uniform. By belittling our Chiefs, no one is doing any favour to this country.

    I know that this letter will not be published in the IE, but I trust you will read, it to learn what we think of you!

    Yours faithfully,
    Maj Gen Rajendra Prakash (Retd)
    Courtesy Maj Gen Rajendra Prakash (Retd) from ‘Report My Signal-Blog’.

  134. Broke October 11, 2008 at 3:00 pm #

    COMMAND AND DEMAND: AN OPEN LETTER FROM A CIVILIAN

    I write with reference to the article ” Chain of command, demand ” by Shekhar Gupta (Ind Exp 4th. Oct 2008).

    Mr. Gupta has not only castigated the chiefs but also predicted dire consequences for them. Not difficult when your courage can bask in the knowledge that the armed forces cannot respond because of the various Acts. Fortunately I also don’t have to worry about these laws. Gupta has forgotten important issues and aspects of the whole affair.

    The present chiefs have less than 18 months to go. In 2010 you will have a brand new trio. If the chiefs were to go by what Gupta has implicitly suggested, three scenarios emerge.

    Scenario 1: In the Golf Club at the 6th. Hole (recall it is the 6th. Pay Commission). Says one chief to the others – what do we do now? The other says- arre bhai chodo na, ki farak pendha. We are out in 18 months and then we would be looking forward to becoming Governors/Ambassado rs etc. Let’s sign on the dotted line. No one will remember this after one year.

    Scenario 2: Same place. The chiefs say – Hey, we are a democratic country remember? So why not conduct a poll through Indian Express by email/sms. All officers and men will vote on – should we accept the 6th. PC or not? One lucky officer and one lucky jawan will get a prize – not being posted to Siachen at all. After all, being a democratic government, Raksha Mantriji will congratulate us. See how they keep on saying – people supreme, people supreme. So for us, officers and soldiers supreme, no?

    Scenario 3: The chiefs accept the proposals so as to maintain discipline and supremacy of the civilian government, but resign to register their protests. Sounds corny, but do you like it?
    What would “General” Gupta choose? Let us know. With reasons. Yes, the whole affair has been mishandled. But by whom?

    By the Defence Minister who was probably acting on the advice of his Defence Secretary. So let Antony start by booting his Defence Secretary out. But he can’t. As you have rightly stated a more powerful government and a defence minister who knows the difference between a human butt and that of a rifle may pounce on the services. But there also has to be an army then. Will we have an army in 5-10 years? Why is the armed forces pay always in dispute? Because the establishment mafia which includes netas, land owners, owners of assets and media want the country to be defended as cheaply as possible with the lives of other people’s children. How many of these categories have their progeny in the forces?

    If MPs can decide their emoluments and civil servants theirs, why can’t the armed forces do so directly with the political leadership? Why not make the Defence Ministry independent with its own budget like the Railway Ministry. We the people would contribute what it wants and we will pay only the difference to the Consolidated Fund (or is it Fraud) of India.

    You have hit below the belt by stating that the present chiefs are not a patch on Thimayya, Maneckshaw, Lal, Sunderji, Tahiliani et al. But time and fate are great balancers – the army got the chiefs needed to deal with stalwarts like Patel, Krishna Menon, Indira Gandhi and Jagjivan Ram. Recall how Lt. Gen Thakur Nathu Singh asked Nehru how much experience he had as PM when the latter wanted Britishers to continue for 15 years after independence because Indian Generals did not have experience.

    That’s why Indian Express also had a Ramnath Goenka during the emergency. Today, even a Major (sorry for the pun), let alone a General, is more than sufficient. We have a Defence Minister who will not last 10 minutes in a debate with a Powell or a Rumsfeld. The Chinese Defence Minister will eat him raw in less than a minute. Read the recent book by a former Expressman, Arun Shourie – Are We Deceiving Ourselves Again – of how an outstanding soldier – Mao – made Nehru look like a boy scout on his first camp. Even after 45 years the Henderson-Brookes Report has not been released.

    In 1963, moving the first no-confidence motion after the Chinese debacle, Acharya Kripalani said ” I hope the Defence Minister can defend himself better than he has defended the nation.” Today, for the sake of the country I hope we can get one who can defend the nation and understands the blood group OG. Then he will have no necessity of defending himself. Has any babu spent 40% of his career in non-family stations? What happened to the grandiose plans of George Fernandes to send his secretaries to Siachen for a few days? Look at how your own comrades of the Fifth Column have dealt with the subject. For every article in favour of the armed forces, there are ten favouring the netas and babus. Not surprising since the armed forces do not give you licences etc. Look at the insipid and inane polls your paper carries – ‘Is Naveen Patnaik ineffective’ or ‘Is the Tata-Singur affair harmful to West Bengal’? Perhaps the next important questions will be – ‘Is the Ranbir-Deepika couple more romantic than the Saif-Kareena one’ or ‘whether Ganguly should be dropped’? How about one which asks – Shouldn’t our soldiers be paid more than our netas, babus and police?

    Lastly don’t forget that the Chiefs are only fighting for scales from 2007, while the army has been short-changed from around 1957. So who is going to make up for those 50 years – Indian Express?

    There are stated and unstated hints and fears that the armed forces have become too big for their boots. This morbid fear is because hardly any neta has ever served in the forces. Assuming that the country is worth taking over, they already have. They have been forced to wear big boots. They are fighting on the borders, fighting insurgency (police work) within the borders, handling floods, earthquakes, tsunamis (all civil work) and very soon will be asked to help in finishing the stadiums for the Commonwealth Games and even win medals. Where do you think the bands and mass parades/drills are going to come from?

    They run some of the best schools, best medical college (AFMC) and the best engineering colleges (one in Pune for their children and also the CME). Each of their institutions, from NDA to IMA to DSSC to AWC to NDC, not to mention HAWS and CIWS, is world class. Their cantonments have always been like Singapore, ie better than Shanghai.

    Last but not least, their daughters dominate Bollywood and beauty contests. Unfortunately the law does not allow them to get into media or they will beat you there also. They are effectively in charge without sitting in Rashtrapathi Bhavan or Race Course Road because the other arms of state have proved to be totally inept as epitomised by the Home Secretary who said on TV that he is learning and getting his on-the-job-training from every bomb blast. Perhaps the fees are being paid by the lives of the aam aadmis.

    Gupta’s article states that it is of national interest. I fully agree. I therefore reserve my right to send my response to the three HQs, the media and such other parties who are interested in national affairs. I am also including Mr. Gupta’s id in this email. The present chiefs may not be Thimayyas or Maneckshaws, but let us see whether Gupta is a Ramnath Goenka, even when we don’t have an emergency. Let’s see whether this article is printed, even in a sanitized form.

    Yours faithfully,
    T.R.RAMASWAMI

  135. menon October 12, 2008 at 9:45 am #

    @ Pragmatic

    AWOL?????????

  136. Sachin October 12, 2008 at 11:31 am #

    MAYBE GOOD RIDDANCE TO BAD RUBBISH.
    ANYWAY NOTHING LEFT TO DEFEND

  137. ANSHUJ October 12, 2008 at 2:18 pm #

    BREAKING NEWS

    PRAGMATIC HAS ABANDONED HIS BLOG AND NOW BUSY POSTING COMMENTS ON NAVDEEP’S BLOG IN THE NAME OF “CIVILIAN OFFICER”.

  138. maverick October 12, 2008 at 2:43 pm #

    would love to see prags performance in the battlefield

  139. ANSHUJ October 12, 2008 at 7:35 pm #

    @All
    Wondering where this Pragmatic character has vanished?He and his friend Nitin teaching DANDANITIhere.

  140. ANSHUJ October 12, 2008 at 7:39 pm #

    http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/

  141. realistic October 12, 2008 at 10:11 pm #

    Anshuj You are right.
    The cowards always run away from the battlefield and open a new front elsewhere.

    The following stanza from “Bhagavad Gita” illustrates that even the mighty cannot be confident of winning the battle if he is not having the support of moral and ethical values, however strong he may be.

    ‘aparyatam tad asmakam
    balam bhishmabhirakshitam

    paryaptam tv idam etesam
    balam bhimabhirakshitam’

    Meaning

    Insufficient is the force of ours
    By Bhishma guarded
    Sufficient though, this of these
    The force by Bhima guarded.

    Here the mighty Duryodhana is worried of defeat in the hands of the pandavas, in spite of having such mighty warriors like Bhishma, Drona, Karna and the 100 odd kauravas on his side only because he knows that the right is on the side of Pandavas.

    Pragmatic is no exception.

  142. Raja October 12, 2008 at 10:43 pm #

    If Pragmatic does not post anything new, we will all be happily posting on this one, till we reach One Million…

  143. ANSHUJ October 13, 2008 at 11:15 am #

    @All
    No point kicking a dead dog.
    Shift your focus to “acron.nationalinterest.in” and take on the enemy on his turf.
    This guy is called Nitin pai.
    These pseudo intellectuals are pouring venom on defence forces.
    Look at the audacity of these jokers,they are advocating danda for chiefs,comparing officers with Talibanis.

  144. realistic October 13, 2008 at 1:32 pm #

    Is there any use doing a ‘hot pursuit’ of half dead dogs barking from the back yard. Let him come to the front, then we will tackle him.

  145. not pragmatic at all October 13, 2008 at 10:48 pm #

    Here is a gem that I found on the Indian Veterans Group site on the Net today. It’s worth reading and pondering over in the context of the current scenario in our country….. ..
    ============ =
    Some people still don’t understand why military personnel do what they do for a living.
    This exchange between Senators John Glenn and Howard Metzenbaum is worth reading, in my opinion. Not only does it make a pretty impressive impromptu speech, but it’s also a good example of one man’s explanation of why men and women in the armed services do what they do for a living. This is a typical, though sad, example of what some who have never served, think of the military.

    Senator Metzenbaum to Senator Glenn: ‘How can you run for Senate when you’ve never ever held a ‘real job?’

    Senator Glenn: ‘I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps. I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions. I was in the Space Program. It wasn’t my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line.
    It was not a nine to five job, where I took time off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank. I ask you to go with me …as I went the other day … to a Veterans Hospital and look those men – with their mangled bodies – in the eye, and tell THEM they didn’t hold a job!
    You go with me to the Space Program at NASA and go, as I have gone, to the widows and orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee … and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DADS didn’t hold a job.
    You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetery, where I have more friends buried than I’d like to remember, and you watch those waving flags. You stand there, and you think about this Nation, and you tell ME that those people didn’t have a job?
    I’ll tell you, Howard Metzenbaum, (nay,the perpetrators of the existing mess), you should be on your knees every day of your life thanking God that there were some men – SOME MEN – who held a REAL job. And they required a dedication to a purpose – and a love of country and a dedication to duty – that was more important than life itself. And their self-sacrifice is what made this country possible.
    I HAVE held a job, Howard! — What about you?’

    “When You Go Home
    Tell Them Of Us & Say,
    For Your Tomorrow
    We Gave Our Today”
    -Kohima War Cemetery