SCPC… shooting in the foot
When things are bad, we take comfort in the thought that they could always be worse. And when they are, we find hope in the thought that things are so bad they have to get better.
The SCPC saga doesn’t stop. At least, this is what the mainstream media would like the general public to believe. The defence minister, having had his request turned down by the Finance minister, has now requested for the intervention of the Prime Minister.
Trying to find a way out of the deadlock, Antony has once again written to the Prime Minister asking for his personal intervention. The letter, sources said, was sent to the PMO on Tuesday.
Sources said Antony has written that while some demands have been met by the Finance Ministry, the two issues of Lt Cols’ and Lt Gens’ pay scales have not been accepted. “The letter says the PM may like to intervene and direct the Finance Ministry to re-examine the matter,” a senior official said.
This comes even as it has come to light that the accounting departments of the three Armed Forces have not drawn up pay rolls for October as per the new recommendations. This, after the Defence Ministry issued a memo last week saying the revised scales be implemented from next month as anomalies could be addressed at a later date.
The interesting bit in the newsreport comes in the end. It seems that the PBOR [an apathetic way of labelling soldiers] are unhappy that their dues are being unduly delayed due to the fight over officers’ salary. The unstated part is — Would the same have happened, if it was the other way around, i.e., all the demands for the officers were met, but some demands pertaining to a particular rank (say Corporal) in PBOR were not met by the SCPC.
The tussle over pay has already created a fissure in the Armed Forces, especially within the Personnel Below Officer Rank (PBOR) cadre, who were expecting their new salaries and arrears before Diwali. The main contention of PBORs is that the revised Pay Panel for them be implemented as all issues regarding their salary structures have been accepted.[IE]
Another media report has labelled the actions of the defence services as “In what is seen as rebellion of sorts”. It also has the quote from defence minister during his interaction with the media.
Asked if it would be a “Black Diwali” this year for the defence personnel due to the anomalies issues and whether they would receive the first revised pay on October 1, the Minister said: “I am not handling that (CPC issues). The Government has taken a decision and the Cabinet has announced that decision.”[Pioneer]
So that is what the Defence minister actually said. The views of the Prime Minister on the subject have been explained in adequate detail by the former Army chief, General VP Malik [Two bureaucratic responses].
At this stage, the PM remarked that the Defense Secretary will represent the armed forces. I reiterated that when the armed forces did not have confidence in the bureaucracy, how can he represent them and get them justice. This conversation led to the PM stating that this is the institutionalized manner in which the Government exercises civilian control over the armed forces.
Have the services wondered why no political party, many of them so eager to cash on any emotive issue, has come out in the support of the services? It can be wished away by the usual line of service personnel not being a consolidated vote bank etc. However there could be other genuine reasons that keep the sundry politicians away from supporting this demand. One of them could be that they actually do not believe in the validity of these demands. Another could be the tendency of the political establishment to put the military in its place in a democracy. It is for this reason that no political party has supported the establishment of a Chief of Defence Staff so far.
What does it mean for the defence services now? The demands of the services may or may not be met by the government. Or they may be partially met to arrive at a compromise. But there will be fallouts of this fracas and confrontationalist behaviour by the services.
The most obvious one is that the public image of the services will take a beating, courtesy the media. It also indicates a cultural shift in the mindset of the services which will eventually percolate down to units and sub-units. The common soldier could then eventually end up using the same argument of emotions and perceived grievances to rankle the old system. The arguments being used against the bureaucrats could be very successfully transposed by an Airman or Sailor against an officer. It will not happen soon, but the lessons learned from this episode (with the growing awareness through the media and increased educational levels among the sailors, airmen and soldiers) only provide sustenance to the belief that a “rebellion of sorts” for “perceived wrongs” is acceptable in the military culture. These are ominous signs for the future.
The political-bureaucratic setup in this country has an elephantine memory. The defence services have certainly raised the hackles of many in the establishment with their approach over the SCPC. The system will strike back, swiftly and stealthily, to keep the military within its boots (pun unintended). The damaging consequences will then be borne by the services, away from the public glare and in not that far a future.
The above ramifications may sound counterintuitive to many readers but it is only a matter of time before these unhealthy developments come to the fore. Could the services have handled it better, more tactfully, to control the fallouts?
A better case with the SCPC, based on the fundamentals of parity with civil pay structure rather than a “We are special, give us more” plea, would have helped clinch a better deal in the first place. The tendency of the service chiefs to hog credit for “what I got extra for you” also ends up portraying the long-term losses as immediate victories. These perceived gains [Cadre review, AVSC, Rank pay, edge in pay etc.] have continued to haunt the services with successive pay commissions, bringing further losses in their wake. Thus, a need existed to acknowledge that flawed arguments were put forth by the services earlier and the services would like to start afresh with the SCPC. Such an approach, rather than compounding the follies of the previous generations, would have nipped the problem in the bud.
These mistakes have been already made now. Now what? Less of a public tamasha, whether by the antics of the veterans or through the media, for one would have certainly helped earlier and will even help now. This tactics of public pressure has not worked so far and will only be detrimental to the services in the long run.
The prescription for the services now — Damage control… yes! Making a public spectacle… No! Give up on fighting the battle with the government… No, certainly not! Just do not forget to back up the fight with some real ammo – hard facts and cold logic.
The final words from Robert Bateman about the US army. They sound so apt for the Indian defence services as well today.
… Army seems to have a nearly limitless capacity to screw things up by the numbers. We do a lot of things well, even under the most trying conditions imaginable. But it might be fair to say that just behind our ability to shoot the enemy ranks our skill at shooting ourselves in the foot. [Link]
The IE news quoted by Pragmatic is dated 25 Sept 2332 hours and I had seen this news at 8 AM in the morning.
Kindly reconcile the authenticity of this news item as the time and date are not true?
Oh Great!
Initially it was pitting the BSF, MES against the Military and now it is creating a rift within the organisation. Pathetic!
Quote—-PBOR [an apathetic way of labeling soldiers]— Unquote
What is apathetic about PBOR?
At least we are not calling them Group B cadres or a PB2 cadre employee or a Higher Administrative Grade and Junior Administrative grade which is reminiscent of some second rate classification.
Incite men against officers. Wow! what a way to cover up your tracks.
First it was ‘Soldiers not Warriors’ which attempted to crack the forces and now this.
Whoever is up to these tricks is definitely not an Indian since he is trying to subvert the Indian Armed Forces.
Signature pattern of discussion –
o SCPC
o Diversionary: Nikalsain Sahib etc
o Back to SCPC
o Diversionary Levity: A Pakistani in Kashmir and such like
o Back to SCPC
o Within the SCPC topics you have the regulars to foment trouble. Like a political rally being disrupted by the opposition.
The political-bureaucratic setup in this country has an elephantine memory. The defence services have certainly raised the hackles of many in the establishment with their approach over the SCPC. The system will strike back, swiftly and stealthily, to keep the military within its boots (pun unintended). The damaging consequences will then be borne by the services, away from the public glare and in not that far a future.
Not necessarily. The reverse may also be true if the military is hackled. The politician will come and go but the bureaucrat will try his tricks, but then he did that even without provocation so might as well put him in his place after a fight.
The above ramifications may sound counterintuitive to many readers but it is only a matter of time before these unhealthy developments come to the fore. Could the services have handled it better, more tactfully, to control the fallouts?
Couldn’t the bureaucracy have handled it in a less Machiavellian and more civil and worthy manner?
“We are special, give us more” plea, would have helped clinch a better deal in the first place.
Now you say that. In your previous comments you were lamenting the talk about honour, izzat and the traditions and culture of Services etc and said it was farcical.
Just do not forget to back up the fight with some real ammo – hard facts and cold logic.
100% with you on this count. Never trust the rattler.
…Army seems to have a nearly limitless capacity to screw things up by the numbers.
Robert Bateman ain’t seen no Injun Boorocracy – they believe in Seamless Screw-ups
@ Prags
I think Prags, this time you are way off the mark … You need to look at the issue more closely , rather than make derivations out of block diagrams of Buerucracy Vs Fauj and Politicains Vs Soldiers or even PBORS Vs Officers .. etc.
and what harm to Public Perception are we talking of really ..The real public or political perception of the Armed Forces today is there for all to see …ZERO..
The harm shall come as a consequence of all this to the society in general , not the other way round .Even a rubber- band spine cant be stretched forever …
@menon:
…now it is creating a rift within the organisation.
The Express newsreport is saying that and explicitly saying that.
What is apathetic about PBOR?
I said APATHETIC, not “pathetic”! Please consult a dictionary to see what it means.
Now you say that. In your previous comments you were lamenting the talk about honour, izzat and the traditions and culture of Services etc and said it was farcical.
Read it again. I say that “We are special” will not work. It has to be parity with civil pay structure that can benefit the services.
@Blake:
The real public or political perception of the Armed Forces today is there for all to see …ZERO..
Nice to see you back commenting here. Do you really think that there is nothing left to salvage in terms of public image of the services? That sounds scary.
The harm shall come as a consequence of all this to the society in general , not the other way round. Even a rubber- band spine cant be stretched forever …
Didn’t get it. Could you expound upon this please?
Prags – These comments of your are quite tangential.
1. The SCPC saga doesn’t stop. At least, this is what the mainstream media would like the general public to believe. The defence minister, having had his request turned down by the Finance minister, has now requested for the intervention of the Prime Minister. Ref SCPC… shooting in the foot
2. It seems that this story is not going anywhere any more. As a quid pro quo for maintaining the status quo on Lt Colonel’s pay band, the government may eventually agree to the new grade for select Lt Generals. Although Navdeep thinks otherwise, the upgradation of Lt Colonels to PB-4 is thus even more likely be given a silent burial – after being referred to the anomalies committee, in all likeliness. Ref Is the SCPC story over
3. The story should not actually get over here and the services should not be allowed to get away with it. The SCPC was a routine administrative exercise of the government. Ref Is the SCPC story over
Prags
apathetic – Marked by a lack of interest as in ‘an apathetic audience’
Officers of the Indian Armed Forces evince more interest in their men than in themselves.
We also have an honour code which most officers do keep up to till disillusioned by the apathy of their countrymen.
I think that the three service taking a stand on the issue is a clear message to all & sundry.This has never happened before specially on the issue of pay.
Only a fool will not heed the message which is coming loud & clear.
If the government does not listen to the services now there will be a permanent discord between the government & services which will not be in the interest of the nation.
If the service take out the rule book for every thing (a kind of Gandhigiri ),I dont know where it will end.
An organisation which lives on pride can not be pushed beyond a limit.I dont know whether the limit has been reached.
It is time for the political leadership to understand the explosive situation & take corrective action immediately
@Menon:
Apathetic – Showing little or no emotion or animation
PBOR is a term sans any of the above. Professional soldiers deserve to be named better than in some obscure officialese. It was about the use of that particular acronym for a group of soldiers and not about the body of men comprising the category called PBOR.
Thus, it is not an indictment of the junior or middle-ranking officers in the units who lead these soldiers, but of the people sitting in service HQ who devise such “apathetic” terms.
…tangential…
I think what I have said is pretty straight, loud and clear. There is no digressive tactics there. What is the point you are trying to make? And do you agree with the fallouts and the prescription, which is the major focus in this blogpost? The points that I raise here are not frivolous and they are counterintuitive.
This piece makes interesting reasing.At the end , it leaves no doubt that this is the handiwork of notorious civil services to demoralise the services into submission to still more degraded status in society.A boogy of conflict between other ranks and officers has been raised to cause a wedge & disgruntlement.For the country’s sake give the soldiers their dues ,respect, and once in a while go to India Gate, in Delhi, bow your head to the memorial of the Unknown Soldier.Think back that these soldiers have left behind families who had to fend for themselves. Think of it that majority of the servicemens children had none other than their mothers to help them grow up, with fathers away in forward area. LET THEM HAVE SOME MONEY AND IZZAT IN SOCIETY
Gp Capt KP Sharma
would like email on comments
@ Pragmatic
The SCPC saga doesn’t stop. (Implies it will continue) -MOVE
It seems that this story is not going anywhere any more (will stop here and go no further) – STOP
The story should not actually get over here and the services should not be allowed to get away with it. (Battle cry to screw the Armed forces?)CHARGE & ANNHILATE
In short ——> move – stop- charge & annihilate
Correct me if I’m wrong
And do you agree with the fallouts and the prescription, which is the major focus in this blogpost?
I agree with the fallout but not the prescription. We’re talking of an organisation which is employed in tasks where the fallout is the final destination of Mortals.
The prescription to the self styled caretakers of Indian Governance is ‘Don’t take the Military for Granted and play level with them’. They may not always lump it like the hapless populace of Bharat.
My prescription is
• Get the SCPC rectified to ensure better intake.
• Restructure and revamp HRM/HRD in the forces
Like the oft heard statement – If you give peanuts you get monkeys. & it’s pointless trying to make humans out of monkeys.
I do get mail from civilian and military officers who have been advisors on previous Pay Commissions and your statements sometimes, are quite at variance from their first hand reports. Putting them on this blog is lengthy and will confuse the whole issue, but sometimes I do get another perspective.
The feeling of resentment against the SCPC is loud & clear in this blog and as the saying goes there is no smoke without fire.
So, rather than a cover up why doesn’t the anti military Bureaucratic coterie be man (or women) enough to admit its mistake and rectify it. Maybe they will earn the respect of the Services who believe so much in these values.
@ pragmatic.. i am amazed at the way u guys can twist and turn the news and articles.. really sound PATHETIC…..
If you guys can’t do anything good to the Nation at leats dont be party to its degradation..
I dont want to write and counter argue line by line ( the way u like to do it) but all i can say is GOD SAVE THIS COUNTRY from PASSENGERS like you all….
Prakash
@ pragmatic..
I dun know who u r ? what is u r background? what is ur age? but lemme tell u sir.. I am 1000&% sure your stature cannot be above the Service Chiefs who have put in almost 40+ yrs of service and seen thru War(s) and you have no business to demean them by making such filthy comment..
The tendency of the service chiefs to hog credit for “what I got extra for you” also ends up portraying the long-term losses as immediate victories.
I am a servin officer, in 18th yr of my service and my heart bleeds when i see people like u who dont have the courage to disclose identity but stoop to this level of making comments on Armed Forces Chief..
You seem to be educated but your comment(s) prove it otherwise…. I Pity U , I pity this country….
Prakash
@menon:
In short —— move – stop- charge & annihilate
Never looked at it that way! If it seems like that to you, it is totally unintentional.
I agree with the fallout but not the prescription.
Thank God, we finally agreed on something.
My prescription is
• Get the SCPC rectified to ensure better intake.
• Restructure and revamp HRM/HRD in the forces
Fair enough. Is it a practical and viable solution in the circumstances? Would you like to revisit these in light of the fallouts?
I do get mail from civilian and military officers who have been advisors on previous Pay Commissions and your statements sometimes, are quite at variance from their first hand reports. Putting them on this blog is lengthy and will confuse the whole issue, but sometimes I do get another perspective.
Mail them to me offline. I’d also love to be educated on those aspects.
MOD now must be realizing the pitfalls of procrastinating on an important issue like rank parity for almost ten years now in mixed type organisations like BRO,MES,DRDO etc.Confusion was allowed to persist for so long and civilian officers in these organisations were made to serve under equivalents/juniors.This delay has streghtened their unfounded belief that Lt Col is equivalent..if not senior ..to a director level officers.So, first and foremost requirement of the day is….
Withdraw all army officers upto Lt Col rank from these organisations in order to remove the persieved fear from their mind of working under an age-old (so called) equivalent/junior civilian officer. This will greatly reduce the deficiency of officers at junior level from armed forces.2ndly,these organisations should be prgressively civilianised… Na Rahega Baans Na Bajegi Baansuri..
@ signature
Na Rahega Baans Na Bajegi Baansuri
In a lighter vein who is the Baans & who is the Baansuri.Why have so many support org around the services when they have no ethos of the services..A fauzi can don both unforrm & civvvies.Reverse is not true:)
The common soldier could then eventually end up using the same argument of emotions and perceived grievances to rankle the old system. The arguments being used against the bureaucrats could be very successfully transposed by an Airman or Sailor against an officer. It will not happen soon, but the lessons learned from this episode (with the growing awareness through the media and increased educational levels among the sailors, airmen and soldiers) only provide sustenance to the belief that a “rebellion of sorts” for “perceived wrongs” is acceptable in the military culture. These are ominous signs for the future
News item in economictimesNEW DELHI:
The government has agreed to restore 70 per cent “pensionary weightage” to jawans, even as Defence chiefs on Thursday intensified efforts to get “anomalies” in the 6th Pay Commission notification removed.
“The government has given in principle approval to reverting to the 70 per cent pensionary weightage, as demanded by the Services, overruling the 50 per cent recommended by the Central Pay Commission (CPC), providing much-needed relief just before this Diwali,” top Defence Ministry sources told reporters here.
Espousing their cause, the Services chiefs today apprised Cabinet Secretary K M Chandrasekhar and officials in the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) on the issues.
Earlier, jawans used to get 70 per cent of their last drawn pay as pension calculated on the basis of their 10-month average salary before retirement.
Under the CPC notification, the jawans, who form the backbone of the Armed Forces but retire at a relatively young age, are to be provided with the option of lateral entry in to the Central police forces and paramilitary and in return, they would get reduced “pensionary weightage” of 50 per cent.
In order to resolve this issue, Defence Minister A K Antony had written a strong letter to both Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Finance Minister P Chidambaram, particularly batting for the jawan’s pensionary benefits, reduced by the CPC.
Draw your on conclusions!
Defence forces doesn’t work the civilian way.To understand this you need to experience it, of course not the armchair version!
So sorry to interrupt your flow dear, but you are so off the track along with the correspondent of the article you quote. I command 1554 troops and 146 officers …..may be difficult for you to digest but its true……we are paying each one of them their pay based on the old rate (even the PBOR as you so disgustingly state has originated with MoD not the services and any one lawyer/pleader in Britain doesn’t become authority otherwise as mentioned by somewhere earlier ).. Coming back to the topic, there is just no tension anywhere in my environment. My Staff including my men have expressed solidarity with the missive from the chief to “abide with me”. Hail to the chief. Please don’t hang on titbits thrown at you by any one sundry…you appear so keen to deride the services any which way. I have personally interacted with my men and there is no disharmony or avarice. The services remain “semper fidelis” . Thank you. We will even protect you. Jai Hind….pay or no pay.
@ pragmatic
“Have the services wondered why no political party, many of them so eager to cash on any emotive issue, has come out in the support of the services? It can be wished away by the usual line of service personnel not being a consolidated vote bank etc. However there could be other genuine reasons that keep the sundry politicians away from supporting this demand. One of them could be that they actually do not believe in the validity of these demands. Another could be the tendency of the political establishment to put the military in its place in a democracy. It is for this reason that no political party has supported the establishment of a Chief of Defence Staff so far.”
“At this stage, the PM remarked that the Defense Secretary will represent the armed forces. I reiterated that when the armed forces did not have confidence in the bureaucracy, how can he represent them and get them justice. This conversation led to the PM stating that this is the institutionalized manner in which the Government exercises civilian control over the armed forces.”
well said pragmatic.
The top political leadership & Civil Society of this country has to think seriously about the recent events and take necessary measures to strengthen the democratic polity.
@prags
“The Express newsreport is saying that and explicitly saying that.”
so now mr gupta plays god..wow. my prayers to him….please give us our due
Thought 1
In response to the selection of media articles cited here, this famous fauji quote comes to mind –
One Look on the Ground is Better then a Hundred Reports.
I see nothing on ground which validates the “rebellion”. I am not guarding my Kots and magazine as in 1984.
Thought 2
Just like the politicians – a country eventually gets the Army it deserves – its just a slower process.
The media with political / beaureucratic backing can definitely modify perceptions and accelerate this process. Make us another Pakistan (or erstwhile USSR) in a few decades.
I want to be in the Goan Army then and fighting against Raj Thackeray’s marauders as in Georgia vs Russia
Thought 3
As regards “the system striking back, swiftly and stealthily, to keep the military within its boots and the damaging consequences to be borne by the services” – all I’d say is that I admire the tactical language and wish that we could add “vice versa” at the end of that megalomanic conclusion.
We have something called “Post Strike Damage Assesment”. Is that planned as well?
@Venkatesh -September 25th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
“Why have so many support org around the services when they have no ethos of the services.”
Extending your logic further , you will say, Civilian Defence Secretary, Civilian Defence ministry, Civilian Defence Minister, Civilian PM, Civilian Supreme Commander of Armed Forces and civilian society (from where you came from and who is your employer) also have no ethos of the service. and therefore they should be replaced by a fauji.
Despite of having retired from service after years in uniform , your level of thinking appear to be far below your rank and experience.
Prag !!! you idiot !!! what do you know about the Army ????? Stop this treason . Or very soon your women will be enjoyed by the Taliban. Have you no sense of history?? Which Babooo has paid you how much??? You are digging your own grave. I pity you. You have such a small mind. If you want to comment on the army . you idiot do spend atleast one month in the army. you will shit in your pants you panzy.
Get lost you foolish baboo
come on guys. understand the basic thread of the post.
a)who is buying your arguments? no one.
b)who is responsible for all the mess you are shrieking about with in the services. no one but you yourself.
why is it that the services demands are not finding favour with anyone. SCPC already rejected them to be too unrealistic. The same happened when the committee of secretaries reviewd them. The cabinet finally considered them only to the extent reasonable to maintain the equilibrium.The fellow govt servants are opposing these demands tooth and nail. The other citizens of the country are convinced they dont deserve any more that what they have got or they are simply unconcerned. There isnt even a single informed person on the globe, who is buying the logic behind these demands! Earlier, every one had some soft corner for the services and went along despite knowing the demands they were making were totally unjustified. The days of the military being revered as the holy cows are over. For the first time, in the context of the SCPC, they are being treated like the professionals and thats why people are loathe to giving them even a single penny extra than their worth. There has been a considerable interest in the masses, and hence consequent awareness, regarding the military issues in the country. What they are, what they do and what they are getting. The military can no longer get away selling some concocted emotional trash as they had been doing in the past. Thats why there is opposition to what they are being given. People are asking the justifications for what the country is paying them. Any argument put forward by the services makes a poor justification for these demands.
Merely running nonsensical propaganda stories in the media in support of their demands cuts no ice. They went even to the extent of roping in bollywood dollies for the purpose.Remember images of them gyrating to some stupid song with these men in uniform at some so called frward location! Whatever they may have hopd to achieve, it was just a propaganda overkill. Atleast when it is also a known fact that CPMFs are on these forward locations 24×7 without break. But did you see them advertising there deeds so prepostrously! Did you hear any other group of govt servants induldging in this shameful act? Is that the stuff professionals are made of? Is that the reason they should be paid more? Certainly it defies logic, SCPC or anything else.
Its no point projecting yourself as a holy cow thats world apart. the manner in which you have reacted to the SCPC and more importantly to the govt decisions, there is no distinction between you and other motley groups
of slogan shouting/striking govt servants, whom you like to refer as civilians! Where is the difference between the thought to not to accept pay commmisssion notification and or not to implement it vis-a-vis the open defiance of the govt authority. All these despite, getting the largest pay packet and most liberal allowances in the country when there are people doing much more crucial hard work than you, i.e. the CPMFs.
Remember you have got all the best deals so far in all the matters of the HR policies of the country. Even to the extent that the other services are being overlooked to accomodate your largess both tangible an intangible. It is not understood, what big deal you will get by seeking so called pay parity?
OK, lets assume that, it is granted that your Lt Col is equivalent to director, or even the cabinet secretary for that matter,in pay and status. what difference is going to make except satisfying a false and stupid ego? Cab sec and his staff will still be passing the orders to your chiefs on behalf of the govt! your Lt Col will still be dancing to the orders passed by the poor chap cab sec! so will all your PBORs and all persons over PBORs! That is to say you will never gain the functional supremacy because that is the way we have chosen to run the country, very unlike the regimes in our neighbourhood.
some one has commented that you can have the best of both the uniform and the civvies. Its interesting. Ever wondered how many ex servicemen are there in the all india services ie IAS/IPS/IFS etc.? quite a many. you have also been creating the pressure groups out of the exservicemen/veterans, who probably out number the serving members. And if even with such penetration in the civil administration you are not able to justify the demands than you really ought to think whether they really are any worth. And whether you are coughing up some non issues to deviate from the fact that you have nothing much else to do these days.
Lets now be realistic and face it that no one is buying serivces’ illogical demands. They have crossed way beyond the point where they were being taken seriously by any one. PM is correct in emphasizing the bit about exercising the civilian control over the services. Perhaps someone should take a note of this open defiance of the govt authority and set the things straight, even if it necessitates doing another bhagwat.
@ howler
“PM is correct in emphasizing the bit about exercising the civilian control over the services. Perhaps someone should take a note of this open defiance of the govt authority and set the things straight, even if it necessitates doing another bhagwat.”
I agree with you.
Recent open defiance of cabinet decision on SCPC which is aimed at undermining the authority of the govt., subverting institutional mechanism, bypassing established channels and destroying our core democratic values need to be viewed seriousley by all citizens of the country and political leadership and necessary corrective action need to be taken by govt to set the things right.
As usual the argument has degenerated into a war of words between people who know the Armed Forces and people who “think they know” about the Armed Forces.
PB-4 for Lt Cols is not about equivalence, its about maintaning the cohesiveness and morale within the organisation. Yes, the equivalence is being touted as a reason, but would anyone amongst the “think they know” lot ever understand if it was portrayed that way? Will any politician or beaureucrat realise that they have sown the seeds of a cancerous degeneration if that was the logic given? You have to talk to them in the language they comprehend isn’t it?
We’re arguing here for the sake of arguing and the difference in perception and domain expertise is too vast to reconcile.
In the end it is a decision for the leadership to make and it is for the nation to gain or lose from its repercussions.
I hope the national interest wins!
Read a wonderful blogpost…some relevent excerpts below…
Original here
http://ripvanwink.blogspot.com/2008/09/cut-carp-already.html
you said it.”OMINOUS IT CERTAINLY IS”.only time will tell who is right. by then it may be too late.
@Barking Dog
Extending your logic further , you will say, Civilian Defence Secretary, Civilian Defence ministry, Civilian Defence Minister, Civilian PM, Civilian Supreme Commander of Armed Forces and civilian society (from where you came from and who is your employer) also have no ethos of the service. and therefore they should be replaced by a fauji.
Actually your idea is indeed very good.When ever people do not have such ethos,they indeed need to be replaced by people with proper ethos.Dont you think Narayan Murthy would have been a very good preseident ?
Problem is who can replace people like you ?
@Barking Dog
Despite of having retired from service after years in uniform , your level of thinking appear to be far below your rank and experience.
Iam glad you recognise the fact (though subconsciously )that years of being in uniform improves the level of thinking.That is why it will be better for you if you follow the services ethos.It is good for every one including the nation.
Of course things like corruption,bribes,poor qulaity etc do no find any place in the ethos.You have been warned:)
@Voyager #21:
I see nothing on ground which validates the “rebellion”.
I think you misread it a bit. The Pioneer was talking about the services “in an rebellion of sorts” against the government. My point was not whether it is real or not, but about the public image and perception.
a country eventually gets the Army it deserves
Can something be done to arrest this? If that be so, India doesn’t deserve its Wipros, Infosys and Tatas. There can be shining beacons amongst the darkness. Or you find lotuses only in the muck.
…and wish that we could add “vice versa” at the end of that megalomanic conclusion.
Megalomania – ain’t it a tad harsh! You have served in Delhi and you know the realities on ground. Vice versa will unfortunately remain a wish… If wishes were…
Voayger, there are only two issues I make in the post. The fallouts of what is happening and the prescription now. I’d have loved to hear more from you specifically on those aspects.
Re. your comments #26 & 27, sensible viewpoint but then you are underestimating the intelligence of the top political leadership in this country. About the generalisations for nationalities, they are the same as in every fauji having a handlebar moustache, a dog and a koi hai attitude. We all know that they are not true although they are good for an occasional smile.
@ Commander
Sir,
We pay the PBOR @old rates is simply inefficiency of our CDA who cant generate their pay rolls on time.I have done a COI for a soldier who had run away to find out that he had a debt of 12000 which was 10 years old.(He had overdrawn his salary)I was ‘told’ torecover these 12,000 rupees because the paying officers had overpaid him.
I had flatly refused and had clearly intended writing a descenting note in COI adn had asked to recover the money from all officers who had paid him his pay for last 10 years.SInce it was an impossible task the 12000 were written off as loss to state.
Coming to your point that there is no problem in my unit/formation etc does not in any way convey any point.If the commander says no problem there can be no problem and if anyone says he has a problem we make sure he has a problem. Your men have expressede solidarity with you or our service chief will be there in every unit /formation/area and goes well with the normal discipline of forces.Does it really mean they are happy?
Will they not be more happy if they get their arrears (and possible annual leave) @ Diwali with which they can celebrate.
Saying I have no problem under my command by you does not mean anything.Ask your masalchi,sevadar or safaiwalla to write in hindi without writing his name and you will be surprised to know!
Regards
SUbodh
@subodh
Saying I have no problem under my command by you does not mean anything.Ask your masalchi,sevadar or safaiwalla to write in hindi without writing his name and you will be surprised to know!
Your words just show that you do not understand the spirit shown by the soldiers.Going by your logic, soldiers will be even more happy if they are told that they never need to go to war & still get pay.
When people (not just soldiers) are convinced about the cause , they will do any thing.
What the Commander is conveying is that his men are ready to put up with the inconveninece of not getting enhanced pay becuase they understand the need to support the cause
Oh great! Now youy have the Demo-crazys, howlers, Barking dogs, ylepers in the fray.
Osama should try to copy your diversionary tactics.
Read my reply #2 on this subject:-
o SCPC
o Diversionary: Nikalsain Sahib etc
o Back to SCPC
o Diversionary Levity: A Pakistani in Kashmir and such like
o Back to SCPC
o Within the SCPC topics you have the regulars to foment trouble. Like a political rally being disrupted by the opposition. (THESE ARE THE BARKERS AND YELPERS OF OUR DEMO-CRAZY WHO TRUE TO THEIR HABITS HAVE STARTED BAYING)
@kp sharma
“and once in a while go to India Gate, in Delhi, bow your head to the memorial of the Unknown Soldier”
the id of the unknown at india gate is easily traceable; the rifle has a number. please see lt gen jfr jacob’s book
@menon
Democracy is indeed a very good weapon to do every thing wrong, get away scot free & put all the blame on the system (& others)
If any one takes a stand on any thing for public good, call him a dictator & boot him out of the room.
@Suboth
If I am not mistaken u were in the services …navy??
“Will they not be more happy if they get their arrears (and possible annual leave) @ Diwali with which they can celebrate.”
True, they will MORE happy but at the moment they not unhappy that they are not getting their dues for a better cause. Secondly , The Chiefs are not FOOls and I repeat not fools to take a harsh step.They are not participating in reality show where they want TRPs . The chiefs have managed to get a major concern of the PBORs sorted last nite and there in another anomoly with regards to pbors for which they fighting. Infact, they had earlier stated that they may pay off the PBOrs their dues if the issues with LT col & balance continues.
Commader Sir is responding to Pragmatic that the divide Pragmatic thinks has ALREADY been created is not true.
“Your men have expressede solidarity with you or our service chief will be there in every unit /formation/area and goes well with the normal discipline of forces.Does it really mean they are happy?”
Great!!! Suboth, In Forces it is all about discipline and happiness, sir,who in the forces or civil job is always happy . There are are so so many problems that one has to face.
“I have done a COI for a soldier who had run away to find out that he had a debt of 12000 which was 10 years old.(He had overdrawn his salary)I was ‘told’ torecover these 12,000 rupees because the paying officers had overpaid him.
I had flatly refused and had clearly intended writing a descenting note in COI adn had asked to recover the money from all officers who had paid him his pay for last 10 years.”
U are a messiah , rest all are leeches.If that sailor was working for a private org /civil org or for that matter any other org …the case would be the same .He was overpaid , he will be asked to pay off. All of us know what our pay is and what we are entitled to .If we are smart enough to encash on a error we have to pay off when the error is rectified. The sailor should have brought it to attention of the pay office that he had been given more than he is entitled to.
I know u are concerned but believe me (if u r the same)so are the serving officers. They are not selfish.I am sure serving officers are more concerned of their men than one that has left.They have to face their men everyday.All serving officers want their men to respect them ,obey them. hence , they will ensure they are happy.PBORs/Sailors/air warriors whatever u term them have more liberty than officers to voice their grieviences.Officers are not the Magambos or hitler like u have potrayed them. Give a break.
@pragmatic
“But there will be fallouts of this fracas and confrontationalist behaviour by the services.”
[1] Omnidirectional effects like at Bikini. After that a great calm with the Samurai and just Nip SDF’s left to protect Sushi, Suzuki interests globally.
[2] Also Oscars’ not Antony’s views on contract labour come to mind.
“The Political-Bureaucratic Setup in this country has an elephantine memory:”
[3] It’s not P_B_S Read only recalls; Mil Spec Random memory sticks too, strategically located, may refine, retune the jigs, fixtures from time to time. Never a wise policy to tweak even a Chihuahuas tail. Woof.
@pragmatic
“every fauji having a handlebar moustache, a dog and a koi hai”
Fikar not. Finxi canus bellum must end with redomo queror (?) The moral and monetary majesty of the judiciary, bureaucracy must be maintained.
@everyone except for pragmatic and his types who have limited vision
I found this on Navdeep’s post – The following is a guest post by BeeCee, …
[See the complete post here]
After clinching the historical nuclear deal,our PM must take a vary serious view of disobedience/uncalled-for attitude from so called disciplined forces for creating un-necessary controvercy based on unfounded claims to weaken the democratic setup of the country.Non implementation of SPC by forces should be taken as blackmailing tactics and should be severly dealt with. In my considered opinion,propaganda of celebrating BLACK DIWALI is being done by organised leaks in media by armed forces to exploit the gullible public sentiment .
It is equally unfortunate for the country that RM though extremely pure in his public life gets carried away and he is not able to understand the game plan of so-called disciplined armed forces.
@Royalty
Ref the post by BeeCee on my blog.
Incidentally, I was introduced to BeeCee through Pragmatic’s blog
@All
The cynicism reflected in Pragmatic’s posts is just to provoke you all to a balanced thinking. Let’s not mind it that much. The blog world would be so much staid if there were no contrarian views. I may not agree with Pragmatic but agree with his right to differ to the hilt.
Had there been no cynical output, we would have missed out on such brilliant amount of information now available here. So let us differ if we must but in a civilized and non-abusive manner
If you want to see all goody goody about the forces, then may as well visit my blog
@Royalty #40:
The early bird catches the worm. Navdeep was first off the blocks to get BeeCee to write the guest post. I have also put it up, after I got the concurrence from both of them. BTW, you’d be surprised by the contents of BeeCee’s earlier guest posts. May be, even shocked!
@Navdeep:
Damn it, you are calling me a cynic
An iron fist in a velvet glove, hmmm… It is a non sequiter that we can agree to disagree.
@Pragmatic
Cynic – of course in a positive sense.
Or should we change it to ‘critic’ ?
I think so.
For Cynical
Read Critical analysis
@Navdeep:
Cynic – A member of a group of ancient Greek philosophers who advocated the doctrine that virtue is the only good and that the essence of virtue is self-control.
That’s good. It isn’t an epithet then. I am oblivious to the more modern definition of the term cynic.
Critical analysis – An appraisal based on careful analytical evaluation
You and BeeCee would qualify for that category. I certainly don’t undertake that kind of rigour.
@cold fact
“he is not able to understand the game plan of so-called disciplined armed forces.”
These cunning, scheming, faujis go to any extent to stick to their standard colonial text book principles eg – maintenance of objective – screwing civvy street in this case. Pillory the lot at Teen Murti. However, the good news is that the bureaucracy, MMS, Chidambaram & Monty are way smarter. Fikar not. Peace in our time.
@Stray Barks at srl 47
Inferiority compex!
@ Cold Fact at Srl 41
Yawn….!
@ Prags
Do you really think that there is nothing left to salvage in terms of public image of the services? That sounds scary.
Yes I do .And so do most serving personnel. Public Opinion is not not based what Old Fogies and their wives write on blogposts, forwarded spam mails and or little clips in magazines to defend the supposed “Pride and Prestige” of the Armed Forces . Public opinion is what the Uncle ji or Aunti ji tell their their sons and daughters who either want to join Fauj or get married to someone who is serving in it . Public Image is what the daughter of a Army officer says on why she could never fall in love or get married to a service officer with understanding nods and smiles from Rajat Kapoor (NDTV Good Times). Who are we fooling here ..
The harm shall come as a consequence of all this to the society in general , not the other way round. Even a rubber- band spine cant be stretched forever …
Didn’t get it. Could you expound upon this please?
No furthur “harm” can come to the beleaguered Services and there can be no further “damaging Consequences” to the Soldier in this country. The Polity treats them like a forever obliging chokra boy, the Babu raps them on the knuckles to show them their true place is in a doghouse, the MES contractors make sure that even the dog house has a seeping roof , the media sends Beauty Queens and phony Actors to break bread with them (and burst into song and dance) in “challenging” locations and the rest of them ask if they could get some soap or Sunflower oil from the Canteen for the groceries.
My point is that everything can be stretched only just that far and No further . And that Limit is fast approaching. While the COAS may not take over this country ever, he would also soon be not able to convince his officers and men to risk their limbs and lives every year in floods, fires, disasters or agitations. And then soldiering would become just another Government Naukri, where we can all just have chai pakora from canteen and go home for lunch.
Of course , many people writing here already consider it to be just that , without being entitled to make that opinion. I would like to ask you what you think could further be taken away from a serving person, when even his fundamental rights have been withdrawn !
A little old rhetoric, maybe, but i feel there is something there to ponder …
The way the Civil (read EVIL) Services and the Politicains have worked relentlessly to dent the IZZat, status , monetary gains of employment and created highly fragmented social order ,tough working conditions for the Indian Defenc Forces and their demoralisation in the society, these people SHOULD BE GIVEN sitara-e pakistan for helping their cause.
@PRAGMATIC,
As the days pass this blog and your views seem to be creating a cacophony.
PBOR [an apathetic way of labeling soldiers]…………..What do you want to call them?Personnel above Officer Rank?…………This term has been used to denote all soldiers sailors and airmen.What’s wrong with it?If I am Lieutenant,should I be ashamed of it?I have never seen any affected party saying it is derogatory..why do you?
The most obvious one is that the public image of the services will take a beating, courtesy the media.………..OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!Now that’s news!!!!!!!!!!What public image are you talking about?MOST OF THE INDIAN PUBLIC ARE JUST NOT BOTHERED.THE REST ARE HAPPY FOR THE ARMED FORCES…and why do you bother about what a few news papers say?THIS IS NOTHING BUT EMOTIONAL BLACKMAILING.
A better case with the SCPC, based on the fundamentals of parity with civil pay structure rather than a “We are special, give us more” plea, would have helped clinch a better deal in the first place.…………………….LET’s get this clear,WE ARE SPECIAL……..WE ARE NOT LIKE OTHER CENTRAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES……..and we need to be adequately compensated.So how do you think we should approach the pay commission?………Oh justice srikrishna,,,,,,,,,,,we are not special,,,,,,,plz degrade us further………???????????@@@@****
The political-bureaucratic setup in this country has an elephantine memory. The defence services have certainly raised the hackles of many in the establishment with their approach over the SCPC. The system will strike back, swiftly and stealthily, to keep the military within its boots (pun unintended). The damaging consequences will then be borne by the services, away from the public glare and in not that far a future……………………..NOW THAT SCARES US!!!!!!!!!!!1 MILLION ARMED MEN NEED TO BE REALLY SCARED ABOUT THE “WHAT WAT THAT? OKAY “ELEPHANTINE MEMORY” OF THE POLITICIANS AND INDIAN ANTI NATIONAL SERVICE…….The days of keeping military in the boots is over…when injustice was done air force Officers had struck back during the days of FCPC…..
To all and for Pragmatic…………..
-WE ARE SPECIAL AND WE NEED TO BE PAID MORE THAN CIVILIANS..
-IF THEY CANNOT PAY US MORE,THE LEAST THAT CAN BE DONE IS NOT TO PAY LESS..
-THESE ARE CHANGING TIMES………THIS IS NOT GOING TO END WITH SCPC….WE WILL FIGHT FOR OUR NEEDS AGAIN……..
-EVERY BIKE THAT HAS A BUTTON START HAS A PEDAL TOO………………………..WHEN EVERYTHING ELSE FAILS KICK WORKS
-LT COLS NEED THE PAY NOT FOR ANYTHING ELSE…IT’S PURE ECONOMICS…..WE HAVE BEEN COMPENSATED FOR THE BRIBES TAKEN BY EVERY INDIAN ANTI NATIONAL SERVICE AND INDIAN PUTRID SERVICE GUYS………
-IAS GUYS ARE NOT WITH YOU…THEY ARE THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM NOT POLITICIANS………GOVTs MAY CHANGE BUT THESE GUYS DO NOT…………THEY TEACH CORRUPTION TO POLITICIANS
REMEMBER………..WE NEED TO STICK TOGETHER FOR OUR RIGHTS
AND THIS PRAGMATIC IS ONE OF US……….(SMART GUY….LET US SEE IF WE CAN FIND OUT WHO YOU ARE)
@SteelShark:
apathetic… saying it is derogatory..why do you?
See comments #8 above. Better consult a dictionary to know what apathetic means.
LET’s get this clear,WE ARE SPECIAL..
BeeCee has answered this so well in his guest post here. Check that out.
One final request. Please turn the capslock off while typing. It amounts to e-shouting and no one is hard of hearing here.
@ Pragmatic
Thanks a lot for your thought provoking analysis.How on earth army guys can justify their demand to be paid like IAS guys since both the catagories have different job profiles.How about a air force pilot demanding a salary at par with Air India while working in air force instead of trying to join air india or a navy captain demanding a salary at par with S.C.I. Captain.may be the time has come for the army to get over from colonial hang over.You have hit the nail on the head by concluding that same reasoning can be used by airmen and sailors against officers as is being used by officers against IAS. Infact most of the highly skilled hand on jobs are carried out by sailors and airmen as they are specialists in their field . in the navy some sailors even undergo four years training to perform these tasks. most of the officers do administrative jobs.All over the word no body joins army to get rich or thinks to be paid at par with corporate guys.Army officers have got the best packing which can be offered by the taxpayers of a poor country like india.
@ RAJ
Your logic jutifying that the forces people are nothing more than fodder for the enemy guns /and to pamper the ego of politician and the IAS , is the most weird.Perhaps you do not know that on the day America committed its forces to IRAQ ,across the board 25% hike in the salary of all military pesonnel was announced. In India , our forces are in conditions worse than Iraq all the time . For God’s sake have some sense and a bit of heart
“My point is that everything can be stretched only just that far and No further . And that Limit is fast approaching. While the COAS may not take over this country ever, he would also soon be not able to convince his officers and men to risk their limbs and lives every year in floods, fires, disasters or agitations. And then soldiering would become just another Government Naukri, where we can all just have chai pakora from canteen and go home for lunch”
Well said Blake.
Everything boils down to this!
Understandably a civilian will never be able to understand this.For him everything is just a job!
.I am of the firm opinion that if this Government does not agree to the legitimate demands of our defence forces then we must not budge from our stand and continue drawing existing pay scales.We are not going to die doing that.It is a shameful chapter in the history of INDIA……..i have my apprehensions that this issue will snowball into a big problem and a few heads will roll.Opposition parties are just waiting in the wing and will react strongly either way whether Government accepts these demands or not.If they accept then opposition will take them to task for bringing this issue to such a pass where defence forces were in direct confrontation with the Govt….(which never happened before in the history of independent india) and if they do not accept then they will be accused of demoralizing the forces.Either way Govt is in a precarious position as (BABBUS) they never expected such a tough stand from CAPTIVE AUDIENCE(Our forces so far and babbus carried those preconceived notions…but no more here after ever)……..In what a pitiable situation this Govt has been pushed by a handfuls of know it all calculators….and mind you they call themselves ELITE.Shame on them.
@ Gp Capt KP Sharma
Humour these guys when they come on the air. When a guy goes to a bar the bar dancers generally invigorate the atmosphere.
Here we have these guys. Their names here however are not Lily or Billy and haven’t you noticed their call signs identify with their characteristics. Barking Dog – Howler(He’s not that bad) – Democrazy – RAJ (niti) – stray dogs (sorry barks) – taxevader etc? Very typical of the traits depicted in their thoughts and writings?
@Pragmatic #31
1. “Rebellion” was with reference to “fissures in the Armed Forces”. Navdeep categorised it as “unfortunate yellow journalism”. Same sentiments.
2. Yes, Infy, Wipro, TATA, Armed Forces, all shining beacons, though a few times stuggling to find their relevence in Nandigram, Wagholi, Singur…Delhi. Agreed we need to make things better, improve, within and collectively. That’s irrefutable.
3. Megalomania was harsh I agree (but deliberate). It was in response to the emtionally chraged thoughts/ language which I was a bit surprised to find coming from you. Delhi has given me some wonderful memories too…the acrimony was mostly because of personality clashes and rarely on account of ideology or vision.
@pragmatic
You are having a field day at no cost attached dear.
@ menon….i loved that
@ kapoor……rightly said.
@Raj
” Infact most of the highly skilled hand on jobs are carried out by sailors and airmen as they are specialists in their field . in the navy some sailors even undergo four years training to perform these tasks. most of the officers do administrative jobs.All over the word no body joins army to get rich or thinks to be paid at par with corporate guys.Army officers have got the best packing which can be offered by the taxpayers of a poor country like india.”
The same is applicable to the Administrative service officers and IPS also,where you can replace the word sailor with clearks.
Whom are you trying to fool!These are the same guys who let the suspected American citizen in the Gujarat blast case leave the country when he was on the wanted list!Talk about competency!Even after 60 years of independence we are behind Pakistan in human development index.Sure defence forces are not responsible.
If we can pay(we are also tax payers!)these incompetent guys the best package,why the defence forces which fought many wars and kept the cuontry’s integrity intact and still fighting to maintain it be paid more or at least be at par with them?
@ RAJ….stupid take this……..BABBU..?
@ steel shark: Very balanced.
@ Voyeger……….most balanced by in far.Keep it up!
@ Raj , Of course how on earth can the army guys justify their demands to be compared with IAS guys,for all that they can do is stay in places like Siachen Glacier for months to defend the borders of the ungreatful nation (babus) when the IAS guys s..t in their pants at the very thought of visiting that place when the RM desires . How can a air force pilot even think of air india pilots pay , when all he does is fly an aircraft which is not even half as flyworthy as his counterparts ,thanks to the spokes our able IAS guys have put in spare parts procurements,when all he does is fly for over stretched hours during Tsunami , Kargil ,Bihar floods….and air India Pilot calls it a day after his quota .
When the able IAS guys fail to prevent the Bihar floods because thier ably run administration cant look into the breach in the dams ,It is the Army guys who save the poor biharis . But of course how can the two jobs be equated
@Voyager #58:
Thanks for the clarification. I look forward to your views because they are rather balanced. But I was wanting to hear more on the fallouts and the prescription of this story. I would still love to hear from you on those specifics.
As far as the soldiers are concerned, if there were no issues then why would the Chairman of COSC, Admiral Mehta write this in a letter to the troops:
“You will get your dues and the officers are trying their best to ensure that.” The soldiers have been asked not to go by attempts to drive a wedge between officers and jawans.
In the highly charged emotional state, many service officers are not looking at the larger picture — fallouts, damage and implications. Let the services not miss the woods for the trees. There are smarter ways to handle this without making a public spectacle and still achieving the aim.
[...] officers, there is another side to the story as well. In response to my question, Blake left a very incisive comment on the declining social status of service officers. He is no civilian, but a service officer of [...]
@Pragmatic.
Sure, this whole episode is a watershed of sorts. The Services will have to learn about living in the glare of media judgment … instead of being a holy cow.
The Naval Chief’s response, exhorting his men to keep the faith in a personal message, is also a pioneering response : an acknowledgment that yes, men CAN influenced by the outside life, by media, and asking them to rise above it.
I believe, however, that it will also (yes, hopefully) serve as a reminder to the Service Chiefs that they either sink together or sail together. That it will be a reminder to them of the old Chetwood homily of your men coming first. Always, and everytime. And they do something about housing, education and medical facilities, the things in their hands.
I can vouch for the fact that at least as far as I know, the men do not feel denied for the delay. Rather, there is a palpable sense of relief that FINALLY, the services are standing up for something.
You feel it can only have adverse effects, but what the hell, I’m an optimist: )
@Pargmatic #67
Unofrtunately I’ve not found time to analyse the questions you pose and I’d not like to write something without conviction.
The regard is mutual, regardless of the differences.
Just to lighten up the debate, here is a take on the ongoing situation. All are free to choose sides and decide “who is what”…
PS – Don’t ask me how they landed! That’s where the joke ends and reality confronts.
@dev
Kind of you Sir.
@Davy Jones #69:
You feel it can only have adverse effects, but what the hell, I’m an optimist
I want to get the opportunity to say, “You heard it here first, Right!”.
@Voyager #71:
Hmmm…. Interesting! The story of five blind men and an elephant has been replaced by this post-modern tale of two blind pilots and an aeroplane full of passengers. Thank God, no one was riding that elephant!
@ Davy #69
I completely agree that there has been a sort of relief , from men and officers , to see the whole thing come out in the open finally , even though it is wrongly dubbed “A Black Diwali”. Very few people had a long shopping list this Diwali anyways ..
@ Pragmatic
The political-bureaucratic setup in this country has an elephantine memory. The defence services have certainly raised the hackles of many in the establishment with their approach over the SCPC. The system will strike back, swiftly and stealthily, to keep the military within its boots (pun unintended). The damaging consequences will then be borne by the services, away from the public glare and in not that far a future.
If the system tries to keep the military within their boots and barracks as well, then there will be no one left to handle the floods in Bihar, earth quakes in Gujrat and elsewhere and also the occassional Tsunamis that may come to haunt you.
Be rest assured and dont worry about the consequences, it is best known to the Elephants themselves.
This matter of extreme national importance needs to be resolved , and the sooner the better.The Govt just has to listen to the grievances and remove the roadblocks.For too long the civil ( uncivil) servants have kept the services humiliated and belittled. It is time they mended their ways.You cannot corner a cat ant taunt it ,expecting no pounce back on you. Or you must know that if you push someone to the wall ,he will retaliate.
@ Royalti
Sir I was commissioned in Navy but have served in Army for 7 yrs.The example I have quoted is from Army and not from Navy.The naval pay office is at least 200% more efficient than CDA (army).You get your pay roll every month and you exactly know how much the sailor needs to be paid.The sae is not true in Army.They used to get their pay roll quarterly(Once in three months which was not updated for one year or so)(I dont know the recent case as I retired 2 yrs back) But I have seen my soldiers get a naik’s pay despite he has become a JCO(Nb/Sub or SUB) because he is not able to go to record office to SETTLE it by paying 10 %.
THIS WAS TRUE for all the record offices located in the north.I had raised this point in AMC center@ Lucknow with the Comandant in Open forum.
It was a disgrace that a Navy officer is asking a Lt Gen about army soldier’s getting a NCO pay at that moment(in 2001 when I went to do Junior COmmand Course).The embarassed Lt Gen sheepishly told that we have heard about it and we are looking into the matter
Till 2006 nothing much had changed till I retired.
I am not messiah but all of us try to take a path of least resistance.
If you compare the three services Navy and air force PBORs are children of lesser god but the poor army soldiers are children of least god (may be no god),.You can treat the soldiers in a very bad manner and they cant raise their vioces.Try doing it Navy and you will get a spate of ROG’s.In army the ROG’s are most commonly returned unactioned as they dont confirm to the prescribed format.In navy it has to be written in simple language.No format is necessary.I am not sure about air force.
Only under Army act under SGCM(Summary General Court Martial) A commanding officer can dismiss a soldier from service.The same provision does not exist in Air force and Navy acts.
I know this is not the topic under which this should be written but Just to make you understand that all is not tickytiboo in Army as COmmander claims it to be.
Regards
SUbodh
@Subodh
I wish you had served in a fighting unit to see how seriously these things are taken.
I do agree that Army has lot of catching about as far as administration is concerned.
How ever majority of he Officers do make up for all the problem by personal example when they lead from the front in Ops.
The men do follow such officers every where pay or no pay.
I am saying this from personal experience.
The aim should be always to improve oneself & system
@subodh.. I agree with u that there may be some problems in Army system and navy is better organised. but try to understand the sheer volume and no of people on Army Pay Rolll.. try comparing with navy.. Look that the remote places where they are posted, comapre with navy where the entire fighting unit is together on a ship.. so there are problems , issues are looked into by personnel concerned .. dun be so critical abt it..
If things were THAT bad as u sound then our Jawans wudn’t have been dying for their country and their serrvice lead by THESE OFFICERS..
Prakash
P.S.. I am not from the Army.. I am a Naval Officer…
@ Gp. Capt. sharma, Kapoor,
I wish we talked about other things regarding U.S. army besides 25% pay hike given to troops.
1- Unlike India it is the army of the richest country of the world.
2- It is not a colonial or feudal army but a professional army.
3- besides pay all ranks enjoy same benefits like ration, housing,recreational facilities etc.
It seems we have no clue of complex machinery propelling our naval ships ,submarines, fighters planes etc. which is mostly built in advance countries as we are comparing clerk with a sailor or airman.how many clerks will be paid a salary of more than one lakh if they decide to leave govt. job and join private sector but thousand of sailors and airman do get that kind of salary after leaving service.
I understand that this is extremely hypothetical but still worth a thought…
Since we are dealing with taxpayers’ hard earned money and matters of national importance – can we not as a democracy, have a referendum on what increment each Govt Service / Cadre gets in lieu of what it does for the citizens?
And this referendum, held once every 5 or 10 years, maybe alongwith the General Elections, can then form a guiding input for the Seventh or Eighth Pay Commission?
If you wargame the scenario, I can imagine innumerable advantages and it can revolutionise the way the ordinary citizen is treated.
@ Raj
I wrote some comments in response to pragamatic’s statement about Armed forces Chiefs..
Same goes for u …
Its so easy for u guys to comment on Armed Forces Officers Personnel sitting in your offices or Homes..
Disgrace.. Nuthing more I can Say
Prakash
—————————————–
September 25th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
@ pragmatic.. i am amazed at the way u guys can twist and turn the news and articles.. really sound PATHETIC…..
If you guys can’t do anything good to the Nation at leats dont be party to its degradation..
I dont want to write and counter argue line by line ( the way u like to do it) but all i can say is GOD SAVE THIS COUNTRY from PASSENGERS like you all….
Prakash
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September 25th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
@ pragmatic..
I dun know who u r ? what is u r background? what is ur age? but lemme tell u sir.. I am 1000&% sure your stature cannot be above the Service Chiefs who have put in almost 40+ yrs of service and seen thru War(s) and you have no business to demean them by making such filthy comment..
The tendency of the service chiefs to hog credit for “what I got extra for you” also ends up portraying the long-term losses as immediate victories.
I am a servin officer, in 18th yr of my service and my heart bleeds when i see people like u who dont have the courage to disclose identity but stoop to this level of making comments on Armed Forces Chief..
You seem to be educated but your comment(s) prove it otherwise…. I Pity U , I pity this country….
Prakash
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@ Prakash
Sire
10 years back I was in the same spot as you are today and used to have same mindset, ego, arrogance and thought myself to be indispensible . But when I left the service I was compelled to remove my blinders by the labour market and look at the world as it really looks without blinders.
@ Raj
Dear Mr raj.. pse read again whatever I have written.. it doesnot reflect any ego, arrogance or mindset of mine… I have not tried to prove anybody mind it ANYBODY( read Armed Forces) is indispensible.. I have jus said that THERE IS DISRESPECT (for Armed Forces and Armed Forces personnel)reflecting from what ever you have written…
I dunno what have u learnt in your tenure in Armed Forces but I haven’t forgotten that it’s called Defence Service.. Its not a Job…I can’t start thinking like a person who is doing a job in civil world .. The day I ( or Armed Forces) start taking it as a Govt Job that will the sad(est) day for this country..
and after u have told me that u were in services(once upon a time).. I guess I pity more on you …
@Davy Jones
“there is a palpable sense of relief that FINALLY, the services are standing up for something.”
True. And going by what one hears, the stand is paying off. As for the longer term consequences, it is anybody’s guess.
btw, the blasts in the Metros have stirred North Block to sanctioning a few thousand police personnel. The Finance Ministry was sitting over the proposals for months, wondering about the ‘utility’ and ‘cost-benefit’ of the policemen in question.
In the same vein, we may be thinking positively about pay of the forces only when it becomes too late. Till that time, we will hang listlessly like an albatross in the ‘Liabilities’ column in the Finance Ministry.
I am leaving after having managed to get my premature retirement through. Why?
Housing built and maintained by the MES is a joke. Better not to discuss the quality of construction. Not to mention the waiting period.
Yes, the rations are free, but what about quality? So I changed over to cash in lieu of rations.
One waits endlessly to get his turn with a specialist doc who is anyway overworked and is in a hurry to get it over with. It is not possible to always make it to the hospital in working hours. Also one has to be really fit to be able to see the doc in AFC or Base Hospital – what an irony. So perforce a lot of officers go to civil docs.
The senior officers and their wives run the schools. Try helping out with practical suggestions and you will find out what I mean.
For getting files cleared, a Lt Col/Eqvt is expected to run after the Ministry officials like a servant, for helping them to do their job !!
One thing I would not like discuss here is the amount of corruption in the services and freedom fighting ( fighting to get everything for free) done by the senior officers. Front end leadership is History.
One statement by the Army Chief will rattle the babus. Why is he silent? We are getting what we deserve.
Not withstanding all of the above cribs, I am proud to be wearing the uniform and am grateful for all the training, knowledge and camaraderie which the fauj has provided, which hopefully shall help me in civvie street.
does anyone have the information as to what elements of pay will be included in the pension .Will GRADE PAY AND MILITARY SERVICE PAY BE INCLUDED i.e SUM OF THE THREE DIVIDED BY TWO WOULD BE PENSION. I FEEL STRONGLY THAT THE CIVIL ELEMENTS WILL PLAY FOUL HERE ALSO.
Gp Capt KP Sharma
“I FEEL STRONGLY THAT THE CIVIL ELEMENTS WILL PLAY FOUL HERE ALSO.”
sure they can and will Sir. the boss is always right ?
So the clever politicians and the civil services Babus have got togather to get the Services on the knees.First they have made the SUPREME COMMANDER OF THE DEFENCE FORCES…THE PRESIDENT OF INDIA TO ISSUE AN ORDER . D E F Y I T C H E I F AND YOU ARE ON THE BLOCK.They are unconcerned that do so and ruin the forces discipline for ever… WHY MUST I LAY DOWN MY LIFE FOR A PITTANCE AND N O I Z Z A T
I just recalled the better days when ,a soldier was a respected entity in the country.Lt Cols , for whose status and salary the trouble has erupted along with the soldiers , sailors , and airmens pension,were expected to CALL ON THE PRESIDENT OF INDIA ,on posting to DELHI . A register for the purpose was kept in Rashtrapati Bhavan. After you have called on the president i.e. singned in the register, you would receive an invitation for attending a function with the president at Rashtrapati Bhavan.. It was followed ,at least till the seveties , as I know . It may still be there on the book, but frowned at & loathed by th BABUS. I feel all Forces personnel Should draw whatever is given and DEPOSIT THE SAME IN TH CO-OPERATIVE BANK RUN BY THE FAMILY OF OUR HONOURABLE SUPREME COMMANDER AND THE PRESIDENT
@Gp Capt KP Sharma
Pl try to understand. How is it possible that all of a sudden everyone, ofcourse ,other than armed personnel, be it an IAS,IPS,IDSE,Coast Guard,BRO, DRDO Sc, Politician and other Babooz have started saying something against Armed forces? Is everyone against forces? Certainly not.
If not, then is is not possible that forces may be seeing the things in an incorrect perspective.
Whole problem lies on two accounts…
Firstly, Lt col is not considered equal to an SE/Director by SPC
2ndly, a Lt cdr is not considered equal to cmdt(SG)in Coast Guards.
If question lies only in putting Lt col in PB4 without change in status vis a vis civilian ranks,then ,parhaps no one will have objection other than expenditure secy. But if parity in grade pay is also sought with Civilian Director then Govt has to see at other civil services also.
Lt cols have been working under SEs in BRO and MES(Pl look at the equivalence brought out by MOD..posted by me in Guest post)
Lt Cdrs also work under a Cmdt in coast Guard.
Now tell me , what wrong has been done by SPC/COS by placing these ranks in PB3. Only mistake which SPC has done is a wide variation between PB3 and PB4 which is not an anomaly but it pinches.
@signature
Sir, You appear not to be willing to remove your blinkers.For your information, Lt Cdr is not equal to a Lt Col. He is only a major.
RIGHT……..WE ACCEPT EVERY THING THAT THE SCPC HAS DONE. THESE CHANGES ARE SUBSEQUENT TO OUR ENROKMENT/COMMISSIONING . NOW ALL THAT WE REQUEST IS TO ALLOW US TO RESIGN AND LEAVE THE SERVICE WHEN WE SO NEED. EVERYTHING IS COMPARED TO CIVILIANS. WHY NOT THIS ASPECT ? WE END UP POORER IN RETIREMENT. EVERY CIVIL SERVANT IS A MILLIONAiRE.WHY SO ? AS ONE Fauji Wag said……..’GIVE ME A LATERAL SHIFT TO THE IAS/IPS/REVENUE services etc , AND I WILL , NOT ONLY TAKE NO SALARY, BUT WOULD DEPOSIT TWICE THE SALARY AMOUNT IN THE TREASURY . DO YOU ACCEPT IT
@ Gp Capt K P Sharma
NOW ALL THAT WE REQUEST IS TO ALLOW US TO RESIGN AND LEAVE THE SERVICE WHEN WE SO NEED
And whom are you putting forward this request to Sir ? Is it the bureaucracy
or the political class whom you are addressing .Are you not aware that it is the desire of the services itself not to let the disgusted and unwilling officers go . Have you not heard of various cases in your own service where scores of pilots approached the courts , and how the legal cell of IAF cried
“national security” to rob the litigants of justice they deserved . IF not ,why dont you ask the old boss of IAF as to who is responsible for this state .
Lets put our house in order . Its no one else but our own top brass who have tied us in shackles .
@ BONDED LABOUR.
I agree with you entirely . Service HQr’s must never hold back requests for parting from a service , be it a sailor ,airman ,soldier or an officer of any service , branch or rank. We all join at a young impressonable age .Soon, we find how constricting the environment is for work , career advancement, bringing up children and family respect in society, post retirement financial misery ……the list is endless.
Sir, I was in Delhi at Air Hq. I have personal knowledge and experience of the hard,……..nay ,very hard , times that the totally professional and dedicated soldiers had. I managed to get away from cuckoo’s nest just about in time to earn some bucks for a decent living ,post retirement. I NEVER ADVISE ANY ONE TO JOIN the SERVICES.
I believe another shocker for retired men and officers is in store when pension is announced. The Grade pay and the Military Service pay elements will not be considered for pension . Thus ,in effect only 25% or 30% will be the pension.
@Gp Capt KP Sharma
Are you sure you have put in your papers? If yes, forward your bold statement to Air Hq.They will be more than willing to accept your request.
BTW did you not know that it may not be easy to say good bye to services as per one’s will in the absence of cogent reasons to do so,at the time of joining the services.
And, yes stop this game of ‘If not given this, I quit’
@ Signature
NOT ONLY I DID PUT UP MY PAPERS I GOT OUT ALSO . Dont get cheeky , there are a large number of applications pending in all the service headquarters. Chiefs feel that if ALL ENTERPRISING OFFICERS LEAVE ,IT WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR THE SERVICE . HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT THE CASE OF A MAJOR , WHOSE WIFE REFUSES TO HAVE CHOLDREN , BECAUSE SHE SAYS SHAE CANNOT BRING THEM UP SINGLE HANDEDLY . And , you must know that no one ever guides us that a SERVIES PERSON IS A BANDHuWA MAZDOOR, MERELY REQUIRED AS FODDER FOR THE GUNS , TO DO CEREMONIAL DANCES LIKE A PEACOCK IN FRONT OF THE PRESIDENT , POLITICAL MASTERS AND THE UNCIVIL , CORRUPT C I V I L B U R E U C R A C Y . …………….J A I H I N D
@SIGNATURE… in any case u dun have identity of your own.. u must be ERASED
Prakash
Royal Stag helps to add to the quality of debate.
Old ( sainted ? ) Monk is passe.
@ Signature
It was always known that it was not easy but Sir had it been known that it will be impossible not many would have taken the plunge . Ask a decent bloke capable enough from a decent background if he is interested. I dont have to tell you what his answer will be . Because today he knows it will be next to impossible . Anyway you did not have it in you . And if you had ,you would also have been suffering .
Keep it like this and I can assure you that people from gutter backgrounds are going to join the military , We are already suffering their inabilities and indifference to discipline,and it is not going to be long before they take char ge of the entire arsenal of this nation. Imagine negotiating with a top General then . Any takers for the post of RM or Def Sec in the year 2045 .
1. RANK PAY IS NOT TO BE ADDED FOR DECIDING PARITY BETWEEN CIVILIAN AND DEFENCE POSTS. MIN OF DEFENCE RULING ON THIS IS APPENDED BELOW FOR INFORMATION OF ALL :-
Rank pay not to be added to determine status.pl check MOD ID appended below:-
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
D(MS)
Subject : Status Equivalency between Service Officers and Scientist in DRDO
***
1. Reference minutes of the meeting held on 3-6-99 circulated vide MOD I.D. note No. 10417/RD/Pers-6/1115/D(MS)/99 dared 15-6-99
2. The matter with respect to status of Rank pay has since been resolved and it has been decided by the Government that the rank pay will be taken into account for determining the entitlement of the commissioned officers of the three services to financial benefits concessions etc including retirement benefits. However, the rank pay will not be taken into account for determining the status. Further action in the matter may be taken in accordingly.
Sd——
(A.K. Sethi)
Under Secretary (MS)
Chairman PPDC
FOR DRDO
Mod ID. No. 19(19)/99-D(MS), dated 4-5-2000
2. As per laid down equivalency of ranks between civilian officers vs defence officers by MINISTRY OF DEFENCE FOR DRDO, SURVEY OF INDIA, BRO is as under:-
Captain – Scientist B / AEE (JTS 8000-13500)
Major – Scientist C / EE (STS 10000-15200) Undersecretary
Lt Col – Scientist D / EE(SG) (JAG 12000-16500) Deputy Secretary
Col – Scientist E / SE (SG 14300-18300) Director
Brig – Scientist F ( 16400-20400) Principal Director
3. At no point of time Lt col was equivalent to civilian director.
Even as per Army Order 8/85 issued by ARMY Lt Col has been designated as Jt Director when posted to ARMY HQ which is Deputy Secretary level only.
4. Hope everybody will read govt rulings properly before misinterpreting the facts and thus misleading the people of the nation.
5. All the fellow Indians can decide/judge the justification of parity demand raised by Armed Forces by distorting the facts.
6.It is also a fact that on one hand Brigadiers are happly going as Directors (Post being manned by civilian officers of Director rank in pre revised scale of 14300-18300) in DGQA while on the other hand Armed Forces are making lot of hue & cry for equating Lt. Col with civilian director.
7. On one hand Armed forces are raising issue of huge shortage of officers whereas approx 2000 Army officers are deployed in the organisations like DRDO,BRO,SURVEY OF INDIA, MES, DGQA etc. Fifth pay commission has recommended for taking out these service officers from these organisations. If this is implemented, it will reduce the deficiency of officers in Defence services aprat from great saving in terms of pay & perks to the nation.
@nationalist 123
You are absolutely right . When soldiery has been designated at base level of the Indian Society, why are the Faujis hankering and hoping for so illegitimate a demand like IZZAT ,PARITY ,AND MONEY. The politico-Babu nexus has already destroyed every single institution of the country to make the country weak and vulnerable, then why must the nexus not destroy the LAST OF THE SURVIVING INSTITUTION THAT BELIEVES IN SACRIFICING LIFE ,HAS NO COLOUR CREED AND RELIGION BIASES .IS DEDICATED TO NATIONAL CAUSE ONLY. What will OUR EXTERNAL ENEMIES think of us ? We cannot annoy them. We must meet their expectations of a fragmented ,unstable and militarily week and vulnerable entity .The Army, Navy Air chiefs….all three of them are good for nothing , fighting for something which THE (ANTI-) NATIONALIST KNOWS PRECISELY HOW WRONG AND UN-JUSTIFIED IT IS. We need a WHOLE LOT OF SUCH NATIONALISTS
Any confirmtion of the news that Jawans and Lt Cols will get as desired by three chiefs ? Understand Govt has approved the recommendation.