The SCPC logic

I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell. ~Harry S Truman

This blogger considers itself to be no expert on the SCPC and had largely assumed, by popular perception, that the SCPC had handed a raw deal to the military officers. The commonly held view is that the Committee of Secretaries also perpetauted the wrong on Lt Colonels by placing them in a lower grade pay and a lower scale, compared to their pre-SCPC status.

It did trigger a contrarian thought when the much maligned Indian Express editorial said:

The pay commission held sharply differing, and more rational, views on what constituted an equivalent rank.

When a commenter, Prakash, asked this question of pre-SCPC salaries and their equivalence now (here and here), there appeared a need to revisit the SCPC report and understand their logic. Prakash had asked:

So my point is that even if I dont consider my Rank pay, still my Basic pay is Rs 13500/-, so how is it that 6 PC fixed me in Grade Pay of Rs 6600/- which as per SSPC para 2.2.18 was given civilan with basic of 12000-375-16500 (S-21).

…And now when Lt Cols grade pay was enhanced to 7600 then what was the need to shift both S-21 and S-22 also to 7600/-.

A cursory glance at the SCPC report provided the answer. As per Paragraph 2.3.10 of the SCPC report:

(ii) Special Disturbance Allowance was given to the Defence Forces officers in 1950 as a temporary measure to improve their earnings without interfering with the pay scales introduced as per the recommendations of the Post War Pay Committee which had brought down the pay scales of many Indian Commissioned Officers (ICOs).

(iii) An edge was provided by the Third CPC in the Defence Forces officer’s pay scales because the Commission had converted the then existing Special Disturbance Allowance into an edge in starting pay vis-à-vis the civilian group A officers.

(iv) The Fourth CPC had continued this edge in devising the running pay band for Defence Forces officers up to the rank of Brigadier and had revised the integrated pay scale taking in account the time taken for promotion to different pay scales. The element of rank pay was carved out of the pay scales so revised after giving the edge vis-à-vis civilian group A officers.

(v) The Fifth CPC maintained this edge even though it reverted from running pay bands to individual pay scales for various officers’ ranks in the Defence Forces.

The logic of Military Service Pay, as per the SCPC, is actually about the edge in payscales provided to the service officers in the IIIrd CPC, because the IIIrd CPC had disbanded the Special Disturbance Allowance and merged it as an edge in the starting basic pay for service officers. Thus the starting basic pay of a Gp A service officer in the Vth CPC was Rs 8000/-, while that of a Lieutenant was Rs 8250/-.

When this edge in basic pay, that had been provided to compensate the loss of Special Disturbance Allowance, has been restored as the MSP by the SCPC, the basic pay equivalence of Vth CPC doesn’t hold good any more. If parity on the basis of basic pay has to be restored, then it has to be after reducing that edge. The equivalence of a Lt Colonel to the erstwhile S-21 ore S-22 grade, in the same grade pay, emanates from this logic.

The aim of this analysis is neither to condone the actions of the government or the SCPC nor to berate the service officers. Remember the words of Sun Tzu-

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

One can only counter the opposing counsel’s logic if one understands it threadbare. The question now is – How can it be countered?

The major lacunae in the SCPC’s logic is the veracity of the conversion of this Special Disturbance Allowance  by the IIIrd CPC in to an edge in the starting basic pay. Someone in possession of that document can verify that contention and the methodology employed to calculate this edge. Does that edge/ SDA get fully compensated by the MSP now?

The SCPC, in effect, claims that they are restoring the parity of service officers prevailing before the IIIrd CPC. What the SCPC leaves unsaid is that this equivalence of status is after considering the damage done to the status of military ranks by the cadre reviews and the AVSC.This is amply evident in the SCPC report, when it talks about the lateral movement of military officers to the CPMFs.

For smooth assimilation of PBORs and SSCOs on completion of their stint in the Defence Forces in CPMFs, similar pay scales along with one to one co-relation of analogous posts in the Defence Forces and CPMFs would be necessary. The normal stint of SSCOs in Defence Forces is 7 years. After 7 years of service, an officer in the Defence Forces will be in the rank of Major/equivalent. In CPMFs, a direct Group A recruit with 7 years of service is likely to be in the scale of Rs.10000-15200 carrying the post of Deputy Commandant. Even otherwise, the posts of Major/equivalent in the Defence Forces and Deputy Commandant in CPMFs need to be treated as analogous because a direct recruit officer takes minimum 6 years to be promoted to this post in both the organizations. The Commission is fully aware that start of the pay scale of Major/equivalent (Rs.11600-325-14850) in Defence Forces is higher than that of Deputy Commandants (Rs.10000-15200). This, however, is on account of the edge prevailing in the Defence Forces which will continue till the time the officer serves there in form of Military Service Pay (MSP).[Paragraph 2.3.11]

The final issue is of the damage done to the services by carving the Rank pay out of the Basic Pay in the IVth CPC. It was done of the own volition of the services headquarters and it continues to haunt the services even today. While the services pay commission cells proclaimed it as an achievement – as compensation for vagaries of military service – it has turned out to be an unwieldy complication, which the services are unable to untangle now.

Enough water has flown under the bridge since those days but the arguments of the services, serving officers and veterans continue to be based on emotions, past glories, wishful thinking and personal idiosyncrasies. The services can only win this debate by pure logic, basing it on the fundamentals of the pay commission and principles of equity and parity. Any bright ideas?

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129 Responses to The SCPC logic

  1. Navdeep September 12, 2008 at 6:23 pm #

    Actually, the 6th CPC got it all wrong on the self interpreted equivalence tables. Those tables were neither articulated by the Pay Coms nor issued by the MHA as per the Warrant of Precedence (WoP).

    The pay of officers was determined according to the rough equation on the WoP. Even the assumption of the SDA by the 6th CPC does not hold ground since it would mean that the 6th CPC in its wisdom has tried to demote and bring the forces back to (self assumed) pre 3rd CPC days and that too without offering any explanation / reasoning for the same. The scenario remains that after the implementation of the 6th CPC, Army officers would be drawing a lesser pay than pre-6th CPC days, how do they answer this cold fact ?.

    Now on the WoP. The WoP issued by the President’s Secretariat as applicable on date states that a Lt Gen for example is senior to DsG of CPOs but the Pay Com has granted a salary two steps higher to the heads of CPOs than Lt Gens. Worse, a Lt Gen has been granted a lower salary than even DsGP of States who do not even feature on the WoP. And the funny aspect is that the same WoP has been used by the Pay Com to grant an equal salary to a Jt Secy GoI and a Maj Gen. But the reverse is not true, convenience !!?!!

    Coming down, the WoP provides that a Lt Col is equivalent in rank to an SE of Central Engineering Services and Conservator of Forests. An SE is now in PB-4 with a Grade Pay of 8700 while a Conservator is on PB-4 with a Grade Pay of 8900.

    Though it would eat up your (wordpress) space :-) Here is the actual Warrant of Precedence alongwith authority :-

    ACTUAL WARRANT OF PRECEDENCE

    Notes : (a) This Warrant of Precedence is compiled from a joint consideration of the existing Central Warrant of Precedence (which is till the rank of Major General) and Warrant of Precedence – 1937, as per Minstry of Home Affairs’ directions contained in Letter No 12/11/99-Pub II dated 26 Dec 1966, the validity of which has been confirmed by Letter No 12/1/2007-Public dated 14 Aug 2007. The MHA has confirmed in 2007 that the Old Warrant of Precedence shall be taken as a guide to determine ranks below the ones mentioned in the current WoP.

    (b) Only the posts which are existing and relevant in the present scenario have been mentioned in this Warrant of Precedence. Military ranks have been highlighted.

    1. HE The President of India

    2. HE The Vice President of India

    3. Prime Minister

    4. Governors of States within their respective States

    5. Former Presidents

    5A Deputy Prime Minister

    6. Chief Justice of India / Speaker of Lok Sabha

    7. Cabinet Ministers of the Union / CMs within their States / Former PMs

    7A Holders of Bharat Ratna Decoration

    8. Ambassadors Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary and High Commissioners of Commonwealth Countries / CMs outside their States / Governors outside their States

    9. Judges of the Supreme Court

    9A Chief Election Commissioner / Comptroller & Auditor General of India

    10. Deputy Chairman Rajya Sabha / Deputy CMs of States / Deputy Speaker Lok Sabha / Members Planning Commission / Ministers of State of the Union

    11. Attorney General of India / Cabinet Secretary / Lieutenant Governors within their UTs

    12. Chiefs of Army, Air and Naval Staff

    13. Envoys Extraordinary and Ministers Plenipotentiary accredited to India

    14. Chairmen and Speakers of State Legislatures within their States / Chief Justices of High Courts within their jurisdictions

    15. Cabinet Ministers of States within their States / CMs of UTs within their UTs / Deputy Union Ministers

    16. Officiating Chiefs of Army, Air and Naval Staff of the rank of Lt Gen or equivalent

    17. Chairman CAT / Chairman Minorities Commission / Chairman SC & ST Commission / Chairman UPSC / Chief Justices outside their jurisdiction / Puisne Judges of High Court within their jurisdictions

    18. Cabinet Ministers of States outside their States / Ministers of State in States within their States / Chairmen and Speakers of State Legislatures outside their States

    19. Chief Commissioners of UTs not having a Council of Ministers within their UTs / Deputy Ministers in States within their States

    20. Deputy Chairmen and Deputy Speakers of State Legislatures outside their States / Minister of State in States outside their States / Puisne Judges of High Courts outside their jurisdictions.

    21. Members of Parliament

    22. Deputy Ministers in State outside their States

    23. Army Commanders (GsOC-in-C) / VCOAS and equivalent in other services / Chief Secretaries to States within their States / Members of Minority Commission / Secretaries to Govt of India / Secretary to President / Secretary to PM / Secretary Rajya Sabha and Lok Sabha / Solicitor General

    24. Officers of the rank of Lieutenant General or equivalent

    25. Additional Secretaries to Govt of India / Addl Solicitor General / Advocate Generals of States / Chairman Tariff Commission / Chief Secretaries outside their States / Director CBI / DG BSF / DG CRPF / Director IB / Lt Governors outside their UTs / Members UPSC / PSOs of Armed Forces of the rank of Major General and equivalent

    26. Officers of the rank of Major General and equivalent / Joint Secretary to Govt of India

    27. Vice Chancellors of Universities

    28. Commissioners of Divisions within their respective charges

    29. Brigade Commanders within their respective Charges

    30. Brigadiers / Inspector General of Forests / Inspectors General of Police

    31. Commissioners of Divisions outside their charges

    32. Secretaries to State Governments

    33. Colonels / Accountants General / Chief Conservator of Forests / Chief Engineers / Inspectors General of Prisons / Members of ICS (now known as IAS) and Indian Political Service (now Indian Foreign Service) with 23 years ‘ standing

    34. Controller Military Accounts and Pensions (now CDA)

    35. Commissioners of Income Tax / Deputy Commissioners within their districts

    36. District and Session Judges within their charges

    37. DIG of Police

    38. Lieutenant Colonels / Conservators of Forests / IAS and Foreign Service officers with 18 years standing / Superintending Engineers

    39. Excise Commissioners / Registrar of Co-operative Societies

    40. Deputy Commissioners of Districts / District and Sessions Judges / Superintendents of Police of Districts within their charges (also now known with variable nomenclature as DCP / SSP in certain States)

    41. DIG of Prisons / Officers of other Class-I Services and Provincial Services with 20 years standing

    42. Majors / IAS and Foreign Service officers with 12 years service / SPs and DCPs with 15 to 20 years service

    43. Asst Commissioners of Income Tax / Officers of Class-I and Provincial Services with 10 years standing

    44. Divisional Engineers / Divisional Forest Officers / Executive Engineers / Superintendents of Central Jails

    —————————————————————————————-

    SEs from the MES have been oft saying that when Lt Cols are being posted as GEs under SEs posted as CWEs, how can the two be equal ?. The answer lies in tenablility of posts. It is oh so common to see one post being manned by different grades of officers from different streams. So while a post of GE has been declared to be tenable by Maj/Lt Col from the Army’s side as an inhouse mechanism for cadre management, the same post is tenable by EE/EE(SG) from the civil side. Merely because two different ranks/grades hold the same post does not result in an inter se equivalence. To take a similar example, the post of AGE is held both by civilian AEs (Group B) and AEEs(Group A), but does the Army say that AEs and AEEs have now become equal ? The post of AGE till the 80s was held by Sub Majors/Second Lieuts/Lieuts/Capts but did it mean that these ranks became equivalent ?

    I’m not at all running down MES officers, they are also doing a great job and deserve the best but the same cannot be brought out by stepping on the status of the Army. Sorry for the time and space :-)

  2. Common Man September 12, 2008 at 6:47 pm #

    @ Pragmatic
    When this edge in basic pay, that had been provided to compensate the loss of Special Disturbance Allowance, has been restored as the MSP by the SCPC, the basic pay equivalence of Vth CPC doesn’t hold good any more. If parity on the basis of basic pay has to be restored, then it has to be after reducing that edge. The equivalence of a Lt Colonel to the erstwhile S-21 ore S-22 grade, in the same grade pay, emanates from this logic.

    This Statement is a Bold one in Wrong Direction
    1) How is the Parity restored by Introduction of MSP when It is not supposed to be calculated for Equivalence, Increments and Status Determination as per SCPC Report (Para 2.3.13) AFTER the revision of the SCPC Report by the Committee of Secretaries, Whatever little virtual parity was being talked-of has vanished!!

    2) Your statement could be partially correct WITHOUT Revision by the Committee of Secretaries, i.e. in the pre-revised or original SCPC report.

    Navdeep Pl correct me if I am wrong

  3. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 12, 2008 at 7:18 pm #

    Compared to the difference of 2000 rupees between the pay scales of Lt Col,Col & Brig pre 6 SCPC the difference now would be 1100 between Lt Col & Col & just 200 Rupees between Col & Brig
    Will this difference be enough motivation for Officers for selection ranks considering that money is indeed one of the motivating factors.
    Will majority start feeling that it is better to retire with 20 years of service since there is not a major difference in the pay scales.
    The requirement therefore would be to step up the starting pay of Cols & specially Brigs if Lt Cols are moved to PB 4
    My thought for the day

  4. Common Man September 12, 2008 at 7:40 pm #

    @Col VT Venkatesh(Retd)
    If PB4 is not granted to Lt Cols then the difference between Lt Cols and Cols would be around roughly Rs 12000/- I think sufficient and monetarily motivating to become Cols !! But yes you are Right for Brigs.

  5. Roke September 12, 2008 at 8:05 pm #

    I have tried to be logical and mathematical in the following lines and therefore I am brief. Otherwise I, too, can explain it in a verbose fashion but then someone may say ”Yeh to sirf Angrezi hai”

    THE FOURTH PAY COMM CARVED RANK PAY OUT OF YOUR BASIC.
    SO WHEN THE FIFTH PAY COMM INCREASED THE BASIC FOR ALL BY 3.6 TIMES, THE RANK PAY INCREASED ONLY 2 TIMES THUS A LT COL LOST OUT ON 1000/- PM ON THE RANK PAY. ALSO A LT COL RANK WAS ACHIEVED AT 18 YRS OF SERVICE ie BASIC OF 4000/-, THIS WHEN MULTIPLIED BY 3.6 TIMES MAKES IT 14400, WHEREAS THE MIN BASIC FOR LT COL WAS 13500/-.
    (ie If you take only the basic before IV CPC and after)

    TO CALCULATE IN ANOTHER WAY

    THE RANK PAY WAS CARVED OUT OF BASIC PAY,MISCHIEVOUSLY, BY THE FIN MIN BABUS. POINT ACCEPTED BY SUPREME COURT.

    SO THE BASIC PAY OF A LT COL, WHEN MOST OF THE SENIOR LT COLs JOINED THE ARMY, WAS ADVERTISED TO BE 4000+800(RANK PAY).

    THE FIFTH PAY COMM MULTIPLIED ALL BASIC PAY BY 3.6, HENCE THE LT COL’s BASIC SHOULD HAVE BEEN = 4800 X 3.6 = 17200.
    BUT IT WAS REDUCED TO 13500+1600 = 15100.

    EVEN IF WE TAKE THE MINM SERVICE TO BECOME LT COL AS 16.5 YEARS AS IN CASE OF ARMY/PILOTS, STILL THE DOWNGRADATION WAS CLEAR AND NOW SPC WANTS TO DOWNGRADE YOU FURTHER.
    YOU ALL SHOULD GO TO COURT FOR REDUCING YOUR PAY AND STATUS BY EVERY PAY COMM AND ALSO FOR LURING YOU BY WRONGFUL ADVERTISING.

    And here this guy says that IV CPC mischief was on request from Army Brass. Pathetic.

  6. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 12, 2008 at 8:45 pm #

    The main reason for these kind of anomalies is that Army lack people with finacial acumen compared to IAS officers & hence always shouting after the event & in the bargain getting a bad name too.
    More over there is no continuity in the army pay commssion cell which seemed to ad hoc cells(please correct me if I am wrong)
    Commanding units & formations does not give us finacial acumen.
    I think in this respect Navy & AF are better since they have a separate admin branch with people having required skill set.
    It is high time services start doing such things in a cordinated & continuos manner.
    Even this blog will have less comments with in a few months of the final notification & that will be a real tragedy.
    Does the services maintain a database of the pay scales of every one else for real financial modelling & comparison
    Computers & software can be very useful in these issues.How ever any body who does this will be posted out in 2 years & the data will gather dust since the next guy will not be as motivated as the first guy.
    Ex Service men can be very helpful here for providing continuity & inputs.
    Ther pay commssion report says that people from private companies can be employed in senior poistions of the government .
    Services can atleast employ retired officers (mainly specialists with proven track record like Maj Navdeep ) for such tasks (with out trying to put them under the army act).They will do a good job since it will be continuos & they will be honoured too (apart from finacial rewards)

  7. Common Man September 12, 2008 at 8:46 pm #

    @ Roke
    And here this guy says that IV CPC mischief was on request from Army Brass. Pathetic.”
    1) Yes You are right and your Angrezi is also correct, Unfortunately the above Quote is Also right !! Yes I know it is hard to believe. Who is to be blamed for this? We ourselves!! There was never ever any restriction on Army/Air Force/Navy from GoI for not relaxing ages of promotions. That matter is totally internal, Mind you Cadre review was not required to implement AVSC-I, Why? There lies the answer to many of the ills Plaguing Services
    Amen

  8. menon September 12, 2008 at 9:09 pm #

    The SCPC defies logic.
    First they say no money then they increase the Pay Bands of all civilians. Now they are trying to explain why Lt Gens & Lt Cols have been downgraded.

    The logic is simple.

    Subversion.

    An Italian woman with western alliances is trying to destroy the Indian Armed Forces.

    The Bureaucrats are playing the children of the lesser Devils.

    Right from days of yore the Armed forces used to have a higher starting salary. The Rank pay was introduced in the IVth PC and so was the sliding pay scale which the civilians have now adopted for themselves. In the Vth PC the IAS downgraded the military by mischievous fixation in the new scale. The Supreme Court has already declared it contrariwise in the case by Maj Dhanapalan. But the IAS has thwarted and mocked the sanctity of the judicial system of the country by not rectifying the anomaly.
    The fixation in the new Pay Band must be after the anomaly is rectified .Service HQ must institute a CoI to investigate the cause of improper fixation in the Vth PC. This does not need civilians. Let this report be publicized. The MSP is that extra given to the Armed forces for their nature of work and to tell them that the country cares for you. Even after this MSP a civilian retires with 30 lakhs more than his Army counter part, the extra under the table perks not inclusive. This is one of those sales by wayside shoe kiosks where they advertise ‘Buy one get one free’. You get two unbranded shoes at an exorbitant price whereas you could buy two good branded shoes by paying a little bit more. What more do you expect from the prankster Babu. .
    Yesterday this was to have been discussed by the CCEA. The Prez & Co have got an increase. Any idea about us? Hope the Chiefs do not get cowed down.

  9. menon September 12, 2008 at 10:16 pm #

    X = Factor for military nature of work
    A = Army Rank
    AP= Army Officers pay
    B = Babu Appointment equal to A
    BP=Babus pay

    For Status

    A=B

    Logically & by common sense
    For Pay

    AP – X = BP

    THEREFORE Pay allotted for A & B is
    A = AP + X
    B = BP
    X=MSP and is the additional amount given to compensate the Military officer when the IAS officer tickles his posterior orifice in a plush office and for his early retirement and for the lesser under and over the table allowances earned during service.

    SCPC Logic

    AP+X=BP
    IAS officers who bring out such logic should seriously claim medical reimbursement for dementia.

  10. thinker September 12, 2008 at 11:01 pm #

    Dear Navdeep,
    Thanks for creating a perverted WOP to suit army ranks by selective choice ,totally ignoring the present position.Also half -cook facts about MES have been quoted to suit the case of army officers.If your contention is correct then why Brig have been accepting the appointments teneble by civilian Director in MOD/Ser HQ till date.why should equation be different in MES? If Lt col is of equal rank to civ SE then why should work under their control as GE. It is not expected from legally qualified person to talk illegal to suit his convenience.

  11. Beuro-krat September 12, 2008 at 11:02 pm #

    I think all Defence general and air marshl are getting enough. Orderly for wife, good houses with garden, children in convent school, partyies and colorful uniform. they dont want junior like colnel so much money.
    You generals are not interested in junior people like liet colonel etc and wing comdr.
    Just dont obey and resign together and walk off from defence..dont complain.
    find other job and peace

    friendly beuro-krat

  12. Prakash September 13, 2008 at 12:14 am #

    @ pragmatic..

    Thnks for taking pains to go thru the report in detail but do u really think that the same perception CPC had?? I seriously have my doubts…

    2. U mean to say after 1950 i .e after almost 48 yrs or u can say after third pay commssion i.e after 3 decades somebody has woken up tat the parity amongst service offficers and civilians was not right and necessitated relook??

    3. If CPC had actually followed u r logic and fixed Lt Cols as equivalent to erstwhile s-21 or s-22 grade then WHen Armed forces took up the case of lower grade pay for Lt Cols there was no reason for the Govt to accept the point and upgrade grade pay of Lt Cols to 7600/-. What was the reason for Govt not sticking to CPC Logic…. So My doubt is still unanswered as to why s-21 and s-22 were shifted to higher grade?

  13. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 13, 2008 at 6:46 am #

    @thinker
    I remember a proposal in which MES was asked to come under Army Act & get all pay & allowances as army personnel.
    It was refused since they knew that their wrongdoing can be quickly punished.
    This aspect of army act is not there for any other organisation.
    Army has punished even senior officers very quickly.I am yet to see the same procedure from any other organisation.They want more pay but not accountability .
    I never understood why army is having MES at all.It is better to disband them since most of the problems in army are due to MES.Army accn qulaity stinks compared to other government accn.Who is responsible for that ?
    I think that was the reason why MES was not allowed to construct MAP accn

  14. pkl September 13, 2008 at 7:55 am #

    The whole strategy of armed forces officers is to hide every thing they are getting over and above civil services and project distorted pictures through media and leaked misrepresented figures (senior officer speaking under the condition of anonymity about shortage of officers, officers putting PMR, officers not opting for career courses, conditions at LoC etc.) as if they have been given the worst deal by govt. and SoC and SCPC.

    Finance Ministry officials have clarified that 60 % of the budget towards SPC will go towards defence forces personnel despite of the fact that they constitute hardly 25% of the govt. employees strength. Does any thing more to be said on this ? Sau sunar ki ek luhar ki.

    @ Navdeep September 12th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    Who is forcing army officers to work on the posts below their high status in MES and other inter services organizations ? Certainly not the govt.? Have armed forces ever represented to govt. that they want to reduce their representation in these civilian organization etc. due to acute shortage of armed forces officers in Army.

    When a Col (TS) (37400-67000+grade pay of 8900+ MSP 6000/-} works as DCWE /SBSO at the post meant for and EE / SBSO { pay scale 15600-39100+ grade pay of 6600} then is it not a sheer wastage of govt. money. Same is the case of Major working as BSO & AEs (group B posts). Why they want to work on the civil posts in Civilian organisations and waste the govt. money money on higher pay all the fauji allowances and perks that civilians are not entitled to get , when there is “acute shortage” of about 14000 officers in armed forces.

    Is the fundamental principle of ‘equal pay for equal work’ is not violated when a Col (TS) producing the same out put while working as DCWE/ SBSO in MES gets more than double the salary and all other fauji perks than a civilian SBSO / EE who work on the same post.

    A Lt col while working as GE is ready to work under a civilian Director (SE) , however when same Lt Col goes to Chief Engineer officer he starts saying he will not work under a Director . Why such double standards. Refuse to work as GE also under a Civilian Director (SE) if you really have principle and status. Why you compromised on your dignity and high status when you were working as GE under a civilian Director (SE) for three years?

  15. Navdeep September 13, 2008 at 8:08 am #

    @thinker

    This ‘perverted’ WoP is a creation of the Govt of India, I’m a small fry my friend.

    Brigadiers are not appointed as Directors, get your facts right. And even otherwise under the Central Staffing Scheme, all officers even of the Senior Administrative Grade (such as your Chief Engineers and Secretary rank officers in the State Govt) are also posted as Directors under the Central Staffing Scheme unless they are empanelled as Joint Secretaries to Govt of India. So my dear Sir, you may dig deep into govt policy and you would find that even IAS officers with the Grade Pay of 10,000 may get to hold the appointment of a Director in Central Ministries under the Central Staffing Scheme (CSS). You definitely must be in the knowledge of the same since last year the MES was also included in the CSS. For your very kind information, I have nothing against MES and have clarified my position a number of times and I am also not from the crop of people who abuse or downgrade other services. It is perfectly normal for officers of different grades and ranks to hold a particular post. The same exists in our distt administration too – a DM/DC may be from the STS while the distt police chief may even be from the NFSG – this would not automatically mean that the NFSG of the IPS is inferior to even STS of the IAS, skewed logic you have !

  16. menon September 13, 2008 at 8:49 am #

    @ pkl

    The whole strategy of armed forces officers is to hide every thing they are getting over and above civil services and project distorted pictures through media and leaked misrepresented figures

    & the strategy of the Civilian is to blatantly lie. Near my place there is a retired Income Tax Officer who belonged to the Gp B Cadre. His house is something that Former Chiefs of Army cannot build. There are a lot of retired Gp B officers who have built house in the area where I live. Brigs & Gens may not match them An Ex PA has a palatial house.
    Now you may say that not all are like that. Yes not all – but maybe just 99%. When I was heading a Manufacturing Unit the Office of Suptd Range -Excise had a monthly hafta from all factories in the vicinity. I am told this is the general practice. Even if you are clean, like the LAO they will point out some error and fleece you. Therefore all establishments pay a monthly sum and during audits, Diwali, New Year etc there is a bonus sum.

    Do Armed Forces people get this? At least compensate them with legitimate money – or do you want them to go the way of the civil servant? God help this country then.

    Everything has a price – an NOC, an application, even a legitimately authorized ration card. Only Terrorists can buy it in free India. The common man is harassed to all limits.
    Who is responsible? The very same people who have maneuvered a better pay packet. What a Panchayat EO can squeeze in one month may equal his annual salary. If you are from the MES ask the affected army man what it takes to hand over a house. The common joke is that when you hand over your house – keep a bottle of rum, on the dining table and your work is done.
    Take you for example. Why have you commented on this blog when the Pay & Allces of the Armed forces does not affect your take home? Is it a strategy to misinform? If you have to misinform please do so with adequate knowledge.
    The Fin Ministry has put up statistics which are to mislead. I have earlier posted a link to Civil Pension studies carried out by the World Bank from data received from the RBI. If you can comprehend the report Pl do read it and you will be surprised how the Fin Min lies with the help of skewed statistics.

  17. Common Man September 13, 2008 at 9:37 am #

    @Beuro-krat
    Your post, the way it is written proves that you are an ordinary employee without any knowledge either about Armed Forces or even about Gp A officers. Just by putting a username of “Beuro-krat” you do not become one.
    STAY AWAY and LAY OFF and If you want to Stay, be Saner in future.

    @ Col VT Venkatesh (Retd) w.r.t. your reply to @thinker
    Exactly that is the Reason DRDO has Thrown Out MES for all its Technical and Operational Works, They have formed another Org called CCE(R&D)(Chief Construction Engineers(R&D)), They are also equally bad, infact worse than MES as for as “Money Eating” is concerned, but their Work is of Good Quality

  18. Navdeep September 13, 2008 at 10:43 am #

    @Pkl

    Who is forcing army officers to work on the posts below their high status in MES and other inter services organizations ? Certainly not the govt.? Have armed forces ever represented to govt. that they want to reduce their representation in these civilian organization etc. due to acute shortage of armed forces officers in Army.
    When a Col (TS) (37400-67000+grade pay of 8900+ MSP 6000/-} works as DCWE /SBSO at the post meant for and EE / SBSO { pay scale 15600-39100+ grade pay of 6600} then is it not a sheer wastage of govt. money. Same is the case of Major working as BSO & AEs (group B posts). Why they want to work on the civil posts in Civilian organisations and waste the govt. money money on higher pay all the fauji allowances and perks that civilians are not entitled to get , when there is “acute shortage” of about 14000 officers in armed forces.

    In fact PKL, I agree with you. Army Officers should not work on these posts and degrade themselves.

  19. anonymous September 13, 2008 at 1:25 pm #

    what’s the latest on the pb3/pb4 issue?

  20. Davy Jones September 13, 2008 at 5:26 pm #

    It is a sad commentary that despite Pragmatic’s specific caveat that talking of past glories and patriotism is of no use, most of the posts degenerate into the same. Cept maybe for a couple, Navdeep’s being a case in point.

    In sum, the Force’s viewpoint (should be ?) is :-

    (a) The Pay Commission had no mandate to revise the parity between the portions of existing structure. Saying that it was trying to bring back some deemed parity prior to 3 CPC makes no sense, as
    (i) Two more CPCs have gone by
    (ii) There is no existing anomaly that was referred for rectification when the SCPC was set up.
    That being the point, it is not correct to bring pay grades that were below the Lt Col’s grade into PB-4 without getting the Lt Cols too in.

    (b) It is perfectly correct to state that the Services shot themselves in the foot by the Rank Pay in previous CPCs. However, the rationale behind it was recorded explicitly and hence the same cannot be a reason to degrade the existing parity post revision of the structure.

  21. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 13, 2008 at 8:05 pm #

    @Davy Jones
    It is a sad commentary that despite Pragmatic’s specific caveat that talking of past glories and patriotism is of no use, most of the posts degenerate into the same. Cept maybe for a couple, Navdeep’s being a case in point.

    It is indeed a sad commentary that you feel patriotism of no use.Patriotism is not just for finacial gains.It is the value system based on which many soldiers & many others have given their life for the country.
    Please do not denigrate patriotism as though it is some not so important issue.

  22. PS September 13, 2008 at 8:17 pm #

    @menon

    The logic is simple. Subversion. An Italian woman with western alliances is trying to destroy the Indian Armed Forces. The Bureaucrats are playing the children of the lesser Devils.

    This is so unkind Sir. Well known Roman tradition, precedents:
    [Military Tribunate elected 362 BC] [The Naval Duumvirate elected 311 BC]
    The current Navy & Military is only politely peeved. Even Guptaji of the IE, a newspaper hardly anyone reads, sneers at them.

  23. Davy Jones September 13, 2008 at 11:40 pm #

    the arguments of the services, serving officers and veterans continue to be based on emotions, past glories, wishful thinking and personal idiosyncrasies. The services can only win this debate by pure logic, basing it on the fundamentals of the pay commission

    This was the caveat I am talking about.

    Col Venkatesh, tough as it may seem, patriotism is a powerful issue, but it is not the monopoly of a single person or institution. Talking of it in terms of the SCPC is however demeaning to both patriotism and the Services, as if our lives were bought this cheap. As I’ve said earlier, we joined for a way of life, for the Service and its trials and joys … and above all, dignity. The assault on that dignity comes from various sources : and not all of them have to do with the SCPC.

    The SCPC stated some twisted logic. To overcome it, we should not be tomtoming our patriotism, rather we should be pointing out the flaws in it. See the posts above : those terming the cutting of payscale as “anti national” and laughably, “Italian conspiracy”. Are these the people who strike you as being logical representatives of a proud service ?

    And I’ll end with two quotes : one repeated from earlier, of “So many patriots, so little patriotism”. And the second, especially true in light of minor irritants like the few embarrassingly crude commenters here and the major things like the “heroes” who screwed up this and earlier pay commissions :-
    “God save me from my friends, I can take care of my enemies myself”.

  24. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 14, 2008 at 6:22 am #

    @Davy Jones
    Whether one likes it or not joining the army is considered patriotic
    The cold logic that you are talking about can not always get you the results since this is not maths where you add up two & two & say is four.
    Please also remember that the IAS who is deciding your fate are not fools & as we make them out to be.They are highly intelligent & have got answer for all your cold logic.
    You need ot use all your aresenal in your armoury.Else be happy with what you get.
    Getting more pay for the armed forces is not just an issue for the individual.
    It is more to ensure that services attract the best talent.Else we will have really a bad army.That is not good for the country & that feeling is also patriotic ie to have a good army led by good officers.

  25. Taxpayer September 14, 2008 at 9:27 am #

    Thanks pragmatic for the brilliant analysis of SCPC logic.

    Armed forces while demanding PB-4 for Lt Col are forgetting following facts :-

    (a) Lt Col which was a select post has been downgraded to a non select post by AVSC. After AVSC , all Lt Col are now working on post earlier manned by Maj ( SO II) although designation of all these posts manned by SO II earlier in HQs has been changed to SO I now. Similar changes have taken place in field formations also.

    (b) Similarly Maj post which was earlier a non select post at 11 years service has been drastically downgraded to a non select post with 6 years of service.

    (c) Capt post which was earlir a non select post with 6 years of service has been downgraded to a non select post with just 2 years of service.

    (d) while down grading these ranks, the pay scale have remained the same. This is creating anomalous situation which has been resolved by SCPC.

    (e) First select post in Armed forces now is Col which has been rightly granted PB-4 now. Same is the case with civil services where NFSG has been granted PB-4.

    (f) There are four grades on civil side in PB-4 , HAG, SAG, DIG, NFSG. There are four grades in Army side also in PB-4- Lt Gen, Maj Gen, Brig, Col.

    (g) While the posts of Lt Col , Maj and Capt has been down graded as stated above, no such dilution has taken place on the Civil Services side.
    In which just 30 % of (senior duty post) the officers get JAG and just 20% (of senior duty post) get NFSG ( Equivalent to Col).

    (h) A distorted picture has been created in by comparing the earlier equivalence (about 80s when Lt Col was equivalent to SE by quoting WoP and pay scales of FCPC) without considering the downgradation bnrought about by AVSC & the logic of SCPC, which is aimed at removing all the controversies and making armed forces pay scale at par with civil services at all levels while giving them financial edge in the Form of MSP.

    From the above, it is very clear, that the logic of SCPC as brought out by pragmatic is not only brilliant but need to correctly understood by all affected parties. Demanding that their 5 ranks in PB-4 without considering above mentioned facts will prove counterproductive for armed forces in the long run as pointed out by citizen earlier.

    The misconceived notion as put by some commentators that every thing is wrong with the civil services and political leadership only points out their unawareness about the democratic system of functioning and the civilized society and the progress India has made in last 61 years of independence in core technologies like space, IT, Nuclear Technology, eduction industry, etc all of which are run by civil services/ civil society. Today we are at the brink of becoming a developed nation.

    It is time that all concerned should clearly understand the brilliant logic of SCPC so that armed forces be better compared with civil services at all levels and roles armed forces are considered in the correct perspective as being complementary to Civil services rather than a game of win and loose as brought out by most commentators.

  26. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 14, 2008 at 10:10 am #

    @Taxpayer
    The only problem with you logic is
    No one is under Army Act except the services
    Every one is allowed to have Unions(what t ever name you give it) except the services
    Every one is allowed to walk out of their job except in the Services.
    Every one else gets to serve till 60 years except the Services .
    Every one gets to stay with their families all the time except the services
    Every one else has fixed duty hours except the services
    Every one else fails & then Services are called in.If Services fail whom are you going to call
    Services are the only organisation where retired people like me are ready to don the uniform again if the country needs it.Ofcourse it is another story that Every one else never want to leave the job & gets all kinds of extensions.

    Frankly Services are doing a complementary job apart from their own task.Other services are not even doing their own task.
    India’s technological prowess has come because of private initaitve & not because of any government initiative.
    It is because of people like Narayn Murthy ,Kiran mazumdar,Ajit Premji ,India is an IT power & not because of any government initiaves.Read how Narayan Murthy strugged to get a telephone in Bangalore for Infosys in the 80s.
    Till today we have not been able to achieve 100 % literacy.No one exc ept the poor send their children to Government schools.
    Every where we hear of PPP model.
    The only olympic indidual gold did not come out of government efforts but due to the patronage of the rich father.
    Compared to this an army unit battalion,regiment etc deliver results.If they dont deliver there is a tremendous accountability & heads roll
    The so called ketch up Col was swiftly punished by the army.
    Hence if you dont want to accpet equivalence, you will kill the last surviving & fucntioning unit of the Government ie a battalion,regiment etc. s
    By the way Col & Brig are in the same pay band & not in different pay band.Actually the pay difference between a Col & a Bris is just 200 rupess which is riduculous & it should have been at least 2000 rupees(as was before SCPC)
    Please also remember that the military profession is not un unskilled profession.It is highly spophisticated & requires a tremendous amount of mental ability to master it.(it is not bows & arrows any more)
    There is nothing comparable to a Strike Mission involving joint operations.

    May be you were born after 1962 & do not realise that what war does to economy & what a defeat will do to pride & economy

  27. BeeCee September 14, 2008 at 11:03 am #

    @Taxpayer
    The problem is not in SCPC’s logic, but its selective application.
    To get the facts correct with your point at (f).
    There are now six pay grades above PB-3 – Apex(Secy), HAG+, HAG, SAG, DIG, NFSG.
    Have an equitable proportion of Armed forces in these grades and there will no anomaly.

  28. Another Taxpayer September 14, 2008 at 11:07 am #

    @ Taxpayer
    Congratulations on your Half-Cooked Half-baked knowledge.
    1) Who told you or gave you the info that only erstwhile select posts are given PB4?
    2)Do you know the difference between the Grade pays of DIG-NFSG and Brig-Col? which AS PER YOU ARE SIMILARLY PLACED?
    3) Which Civilized society you are referring to? I will give some examples of your Civilized Society
    (a) Corrupt Babooze did not work on the Kosi embankment in time and you know the result. No one will be punished or held accountable for this in the next one Century.
    (b) Ex-Principal Secretary( A lady) to UP declared Corrupt and facing many charges. What is the punishment? None
    (c) Oil-for Food Scam.
    (d) Phalaana Scam, dhikaana scam, Scam, Scam, Scam.
    4) Where is the Civilzed society existing in this country? May be in your Mind !!
    Yes every organisation needs to put their own home in order their may be some ills in the Armed Forces BUT when it is Compared to ALL OTHER GOVT., PUBLIC & PRIVATE Orgs every-one knows which is better.Thank God the Quota System has not been implemented by SSBs otherwise you never know what would have been the condition of Armed Forces.
    Did You ever Imagine If Armed Forces withdraw their Total Man-Power from Every Non-Armed-Force Organisation of this Country what will happen?
    There many more things, but I have not taken any “Thekaa” to educate you.

  29. Navdeep September 14, 2008 at 11:10 am #

    @Taxpayer

    Definitely your approach is admirable but let me add a few corrections, and please do not base your service (the MES) for your comparative analysis. The comparison of military status and pay has traditionally been with organized Group A civil services and not with technical services such as the MES which anyway have a very small cadre strength.

    Taxpayer – “Lt Col which was a select post has been downgraded to a non select post by AVSC. After AVSC , all Lt Cols are now working on posts earlier manned by Maj ( SO II) although designation of all these posts manned by SO II earlier in HQs has been changed to SO I now. Similar changes have taken place in field formations also.

    Yes, the rank of Lt Col has been brought down to 13 years of service but it is still equivalent to the NFSG which is also achievable in 13 years by Group A civil services. The reason for bringing down the time span for Lt Col to 13 years was infact to maintain a parity with the civil services. Otherwise, it could have been 12 years or 14 years or whatever but was maintained at 13 years by the govt. A Group of Officers (GOO) after the 5th CPC had also ordained that the payscale of Military officers in their 14th year of service shall not be less than their civil services counterparts in the same year of service – sorry but the govt cannot go back on it.

    Taxpayer – “Similarly Maj post which was earlier a non select post at 11 years service has been drastically downgraded to a non select post with 6 years of service / Capt post which was earlier a non select post with 6 years of service has been downgraded to a non select post with just 2 years of service.”

    I agree with you that Major should no longer be at par with JAG since that would mean that an Army Officer would attain the JAG in 6 years as compared to 9 in the organized Group A services. Similarly, a Capt should no longer be at par with STS and has rightly been kept between JTS and STS.

    Taxpayer – “First select post in Armed forces now is Col which has been rightly granted PB-4 now. Same is the case with civil services where NFSG has been granted PB-4.

    NFSG is NOT a select post in the civil services. As the name suggests, it is non-functional selection grade and is inter-changeable with JAG. A post that can be manned by JAG can also be manned by NFSG except in a few technical services. The only difference is under the Central Staffing Scheme (CSS) wherein JAG officers are appointed as Deputy Secretaries to Govt of India while NFSG Officers are appointed as Directors. On the other hand, Colonel is a Functional rank and not interchangeable with Lt Col. It is now Maj and Lt Col that are interchangeable (non-functional) ranks like JAG and NFSG on the civil side.

    Taxpayer – “the logic of SCPC, which is aimed at removing all the controversies and making armed forces pay scale at par with civil services at all levels while giving them financial edge in the Form of MSP.

    Sorry but pray tell us how have you come to the conclusion of ‘At Par’ ? According to the 6th CPC, a civil officer would achieve in 4 years what an Army officer would achieve in 6 years, a civil officer would achieve in 9 years (JAG) what an Army officer would achieve in 13 years (Lt Col), a civil officer would achieve in 13 years (NFSG) what an Army officer would get in 20 years (Col). Further 100% of directly recruited organized Group A officers would achieve the Sr Adm Grade in 16-18 years what less than 2% officers would achieve in 33 years (Maj Gen). Your perception of equality is rather skewed my dear Sir.

    Amen

  30. Prakash September 14, 2008 at 11:36 am #

    @Taxpayer

    Capt in 6 Years to 2 years.. which Armed Forces u are talking about dear friend..
    I am comleteing 19th yr.. i guess my Capt/Equiv promotion was 3 yrs..so it has been brought down to 2 yrs view abolishment of 2 Lt/Acting Slt Rank

    Prakash

  31. Common Man September 14, 2008 at 12:15 pm #

    Dear Prag
    Just a Thought
    There is no comment from your side on so many commenters’ points after posting the original script

  32. menon September 14, 2008 at 12:23 pm #

    @ Taxpayer
    Thanks for bringing out how the cvil service distorts facts under the garb of logic.
    Navdeep has given you a very clear answer. Hope you nderstood it.
    If you visit the Civil Services Rules and read their CR format and compare it to the Army one you would ask yourself how could you ever use the term ‘Selection’ grade for the civil services.
    Only the worst of the worst may not make it to the comfort zone.

  33. Fauji Taxpayer September 14, 2008 at 12:41 pm #

    Gentlemen,
    I Think Navdeepji deserves a round of applause for putting the MES ka Aulad – Taxpayer in his place. And Taxpayer should be struck off the rolls of the Central Govt for misrepresenting facts grossly. H thaininge should stick to his only profession of stealing public money and stop blogging.

    Pragmatic also deserves accolades for maintaining the blog under such duress.

  34. Roke September 14, 2008 at 12:59 pm #

    @Navdeep

    You have not countered the claim ”Downgraded”.
    The” Taxpayer’s” English is weak.
    The ranks were not ”Downgraded”. The no. of years required to achieve these ranks was reduced.
    I think, because of our Promotion Exams, Medical standards requirment and other criteria, the ”So called Time scale” ranks should be reverted to ”Select” ranks. A board should be held and all given the rank. This would be similar to the ”Acrobatics” of congratulating all PB 3 chaps fo clearing the board but promising them Promotion based on vacancies available. Symntax Jugglery.

    Downgrading.

    For one year let the JCOs be postd as AGEs or for that matter GEs and then we can claim that MES GEs ar equivalent to JCOs. I know this logic is as absurd as these guys but I presume it suits their intelligence.

  35. sk4 September 14, 2008 at 1:10 pm #

    TAKEN FROM A GROUP -NOT FAR FROM TRUTH

    Pragmatic blog is reportedly run by an IAS officer injecting anti service writing in small doses on different topics.He is trying to create a standing as a blog for all things wrong in service.
    He tries to question time tested service traditions and many officers get drawn in to discussion agreeing and disagreeing.
    The topics are made to be serious and hence attracting hits.This blog writer is overwhelmingly anti service and every article of his draws sharp as well as admired response.
    While many of the rejoinders of service officers identify their rank and name,Pragmatic remains anonymous and refuses to come clean on his background so that one can see whether he has vested interests.

  36. Doc September 14, 2008 at 1:44 pm #

    @Taxpayer

    You have mentioned about degradation of officer ranks at Lt Col and below level by the SPC. It may be stated here that this was never the logic of the SPC but has been the doing of the overnment/committee of secretaries(COS).

    Another statement made by you is the existence of 4 grades of select ranks below Army Cdr(Secy level). It may be pointed out that there exist 5 ranks/grades. These are NFSG, DIG, Jt Secy, Addl Secy and the HAG plus scale. What has been overlooked is the huge degradation of these grades/ranks on the civil side over the years. Where you had one IG you now see dozens of IGs in states of ages which one saw in districts (police officers of this age ought to have been there at the cutting edge of policing especially in the present times—-this is another subject and would be dealt with sometime later, but in the ultimate analysis has something to do with the aims and objectives of the civil services in India vis-à-vis the military). A DIG earlier and not long ago looked after a range which now is being handled by a young IG.

    Also the way a SAG (Maj Gen/IG/Jt Secy) grade is being given to all MBBS doctors after 20 yrs and specialists after 13yrs service by the COS in these days of privatization /outsourcing of healthcare speaks volumes of the degradation of civil grades. Now the head of an armoured/infantry division continues and would always remain a Maj Gen and likewise a Lt Gen the head of a Corps. And since the defence services would not upgrade this and also cannot endlessly increase non-command/staff posts to match the degradation in the earlier equivalent or near equivalent civilian posts ( ‘competitive degradation’) a new equivalence/parity is needed. This is what should be addressed now.

    The govt (it was never the intent of SPC I repeat) cannot selectively talk of the logic of degradation of Lt Col rank while continuously having the senior military commanders degraded. Is it not appropriate now to have a Divisional Cdr equated with addl secy(HAG) and Corps Cdr with HAG plus grade which has been given to DGPs in staes(below the police head) and to Special DGPs in CPMFs—a wholly funny sounding designation, but who cares.

    The armed forces have been loathe to ape the civil services for whom it is just a job. For the military it is the belief and knowledge that there are no runners up in war and the continued assurance of ‘izzat’/dignity that should allow them to keep their rank structure grossly intact and functional. We should not be forced to make dysfunctional changes in our structure under provocation from or even suggestion of the civil establishment.

    The way the govt(COS) has modified the SPC recommendations in a one sided manner (with for example only a rupees 200 salary gap between a Colonel and a Brigadier) is something that cannot just be accepted .The brigadier is perceived by them as a short transitory post like the IPS has made it for themselves or an addl DIG of the CPMFs who have been upgraded to DIG rank! The logic of the latter upgradation has been that there are no analogous grades/ranks in the defence services. Somehow this logic did not occur to the COS in respect of Lt Gens and police grade in HAG plus scale. (As regards the issue of brigadiers the post of Pragmatic is in someway illuminating . Does Brig Gen Nicholson come across as a ‘middle level’ officer!)

    What surprises me is the ‘quality’of the end result of deliberations of the COS which included the expenditure secy who has been part of the SPC since inception. I think it is reflected in the quality of governance that prevails in India and vice-versa.

  37. SK4 September 14, 2008 at 1:48 pm #

    Previous post may have been deleted by mistake as Pragmatic believes in democratic expression.

    TAKEN FROM A GROUP -NOT FAR FROM TRUTH

    Pragmatic blog is reportedly run by an IAS officer injecting anti service writing in small doses on different topics.He is trying to create a standing as a blog for all things wrong in service.
    He tries to question time tested service traditions and many officers get drawn in to discussion agreeing and disagreeing.
    The topics are made to be serious and hence attracting hits.This blog writer is overwhelmingly anti service and every article of his draws sharp as well as admired response.
    While many of the rejoinders of service officers identify their rank and name,Pragmatic remains anonymous and refuses to come clean on his background so that one can see whether he has vested interests.

  38. doc September 14, 2008 at 2:12 pm #

    @Taxpayer

    You have mentioned about downgradation of officer ranks at Lt Col and below level. It may be stated here that this was never the logic of the SPC but has been the doing of the government/committee of secretaries(COS).

    Another statement made by you is the existence of 4 grades of select ranks below Army Cdr(Secy level). It may be pointed out that there exist 5 ranks/grades. These are NFSG, DIG, Jt Secy, Addl Secy and the HAG plus scale. What has been overlooked is the huge degradation of these grades/ranks on the civil side over the years. Where you had one IG you now see dozens of IGs in states of ages which one saw in districts (police officers of this age ought to have been there at the cutting edge of policing especially in the present times—-this is another subject and would be dealt with sometime later, but in the ultimate analysis has something to do with the aims and objectives of the civil services in India vis-à-vis the military). A DIG earlier and not long ago looked after a range which now is being handled by a young IG.

    Also the way a SAG (Maj Gen/IG/Jt Secy) grade is being given to all MBBS doctors after 20 yrs and specialists after 13yrs service by the COS in these days of privatization /outsourcing of healthcare speaks volumes of the degradation of civil grades. Now the head of an armoured/infantry division continues and would always remain a Maj Gen and likewise a Lt Gen that of a Corps. And since the defence services would not upgrade this and also cannot endlessly increase non-command/staff posts to match the degradation in the earlier equivalent or near equivalent civilian posts ( ‘competitive degradation’) a new equivalence/parity is needed. This is what should be addressed now.

    The govt (it was never the intent of SPC I repeat) cannot selectively talk of the logic of downgradation of Lt Col rank while continuously having the senior military commanders remaining equivalent to degraded civil ranks.. Is it not appropriate now to have a Divisional Cdr now equated with addl secy(HAG) and Corps Cdr with HAG plus grade which has been given to DGPs in staes(below the police head) and to Special DGPs in CPMFs—a wholly funny sounding designation, but who cares.

    The armed forces have been loathe to ape the civil services for whom it is just a job. For the military it is the belief and knowledge that there are no runners up in war and the continued assurance of ‘izzat’/dignity that should allow them to keep their rank structure grossly intact and functional. We should not be forced to make dysfunctional changes in our structure under provocation from or even suggestion of the civil establishment.

    The way the govt(COS) has modified the SPC recommendations in a one sided manner (with for example only a rupees 200 salary gap between a Colonel and a Brigadier) is something that cannot just be accepted .The brigadier is perceived by them as a short transitory post like the IPS has made it for themselves or an addl DIG of the CPMFs who have been upgraded to DIG rank! The logic of the latter upgradation has been that there

    are no analogous grades/ranks in the defence services. Somehow this logic did not occur to the COS in respect of Lt Gens and police grade in HAG plus scale. (As regards the issue of brigadiers the post of Pragmatic is in someway illuminating . Does Brig Gen Nicholson come across as a ‘middle level’ officer!)

    What surprises me is the ‘quality’of the end result of deliberations of the COS which included the expenditure secy who has been part of the SPC since inception. I think it is reflected in the quality of governance that prevails in India and vice-versa.

  39. Taxpayer September 14, 2008 at 2:34 pm #

    The SCPC logic is brilliant as brought out as below :-

    JTS- Lt
    Capt
    STS- Maj
    JAG – Lt Col
    NFSG- Col
    DIG- Brig
    SAG- Maj Gen
    HAG- Lt Gen
    Secy – Army Cdr
    Cabinet Secy – Chief

    Where is the doubt? Doubt are being created by vested sub interest in Services who want that confusion should remain by grant of higher pay scale to Lt Col so that there is scope of creating further confusion in future.

    @ Navdeep

    your statement that NFSG is a not a select post is incorrect.

    Futher please also refer to blog by Citizen who clearly brings out your pit falls as under –

    “….When it comes to pay and status / equivalence you want JAG for Major and PB-4 for Lt Col when it comes to working you are ready to work at post must below your so called status. Why should govt. spend more money in employing at Col (TS) in PB-4 when same out put can be produced by STS level officers like EE and SBSO. Is it not putting taxpayers money down the drain ?
    The whole issue relates to more no. of ranks in army vis a vis civil. Lt, Capt doing the same job all over india but why rank of capt at all. If you abolish capt rank from armed forces the whole problem will be solved.
    3 ranks in civil side in PB-3 (JTS, STS, JAG) and three in army side (Lt, Maj & Lt Col). You have already down graded Lt Col to a non select post by AVSC. Then why demand of a select pay scale (PB-4) for Lt Col ? Then equal no. of ranks ion both sides on PB-4 also , four from civil side -NFSG, DIG, SAG, HAG and four in Army side- Col ,Brig, Maj Gen , Lt Gen.

    There is another angle to it , on one hand armed forces claim that they have shortage of more than 12000 officers, on other hand , officers are sent in very large no. to work on rather junior civil group B / group A post in civilian organizations like MES, GREF/ BRO, DGQA etc as illustrated above. Then you say , despite of working at junior level , we should get the pay and grade of senior officers. Govt. is run on economic considerations and sound logic rather than on emotions and misplaced data. It is high time the authorization of officers in armed forces be reviewed because of technological changes . Such large downsizing has already taken place in Civil /banks/ PSUs & corporate sector.

    AVSC has down graded the post of Lt Col from a select to non select post. Then why you want to equate non select post to a select post ? Let a select post be equated with a select post – col with director, Brig with DIG. Maj Gen with JS Lt Gen with Addl Secy.

    There is another angle to it related the internal administration of Armed forces. If one assume the average service span of a permanent commissioned officer 20-54 years – i.e. total average 34 years. If Lt Col with 13 years of service is to be granted PB-4 , then total no. of officers at any time in PB-4 in armed forces will be 62% [(34-13)x100/34 ]. This means 62 % of permanent commission officers will be in PB-4. only 38 % will be in PB-3. The modern organizational design requires otherwise that is less officers in senior grade and more in junior grade. There will be no difference between a lt col and a senior Maj Gen as later will not be getting any rank pay. Imagine the situation, when the ranks of Col (TS) is swelled by all Lt Col from 17-18 years to 26 years of service with hardly anything to gain either financially or status wise, command and administration of these officer will be nightmare of any commander.

    Another thing which is need is sound exit policy for armed forces officers ? Why you want to have an officer who does not want to serve you ? Give him a exit on demand. There will be a jolt , but after that every thing will be alright? Life is not so easy on the civil/ corporate side? You have to prove your worth every year that you are worthy of compensation what you are getting ?”

  40. menon September 14, 2008 at 7:28 pm #

    @ Taxpayer

    Where did you get your WoP?
    That DIG=Brig suggests that Loki is at work.
    A DIG is not equal to a Brig. Just because the Badges of rank look alike they are not the same. Can the President of a Residents Association be equal to the President of India? By SCPC and your logic they should be equal. My Barber has a business card which says MD Deccan Hairlines. Is he to be equated with the MD of Deccan Airlines?
    Just because the IAS and the IPS wanted to ape the Army because of a hidden complex they designated themselves as Director GENERAL and a young whipper snapper IPS officer apes an Army General by wearing his ranks. The other people who do this are Terrorists who have Self Styled Ranks like Gen X and Col Y.

    Isn’t it a shame that in free democratic India we have a Police Force which wears Military look alike uniforms to give the impression of an Army of Occupation. In British India Military officers were on Deputation and that is why they wore their miltary ranks. Why are these civilians wearing universal military ranks. Incidentally, the Army officer wears a Rank whereas the civilian IPS officers is appointed to DIG-IG etc (these are appointments). During the Jallianwala Massacre a British Army Major was the IG Amritasr.

    Do you know that the Hindi title for a Collector is a SUBEDAR i.e. the head of a Sube or District? Before Independence VCOs (the present JCOs) were Subedars. Going by the SCPC logic our Army Subedars must be equal to Collectors and their equivalent grade in the IAS.
    You call yourself Taxpayer. The taxes I pay don’t change the potholes, electricity cuts, militancy, corruption, bureaucratic inefficiency. Have you ever asked the bureaucrat that? Or, are you one of them?
    Evident, from the misinformation that you are trying to spread by some half baked mischieviously reconditioned statements . Unfortunately no one is buying it this time.
    Frustrating isn’t it?

  41. menon September 14, 2008 at 7:42 pm #

    @ sk4
    Why do you want Pragmatic to identify himself?
    This reminds me of the military method of tickling the enemy to provoke a response thereby giving himself away. And practice before you preach. Why the code sk4? Why don’t you tell us where you come from, where you work, your contact details etc?
    Anyway, even if Pragmatic is an IAS officer I feel there has been so much of setting right the disinformation campaign of the bureaucrats that even the Devil cannot ignore that the Armed forces have been wronged and they are legitimately correct in their objections. If Pragmatic is IAS then the IAS lobby must be cursing him for these blogs which have set right many misconceptions which they would have wanted to propagate. If the Babus and the Netas are not the lowest dregs of scum then after they these writings they would have rectified their mischievous doings. Thick skinned or just shameless?

  42. Pappu September 14, 2008 at 8:30 pm #

    @Taxpayer
    One wonders at the odacity of this guys,about his claim of select ranks.Sounds as if he has to pass some competetive exam or get outstanding reports throughout his career to get into higher ranks.
    Anybody ,even a fool(Sorry to use this word) in the civil services including the MES makes it to the rank of chief engineer or equivalent,provided he has age on his side and not embroiled in any corruption charges .How many chrge sheeted administrative services officers and police service officers have missed their higher ranks due to lack of integrity.I would say none!
    A poor fauji,has the following handicaps in this connection:
    *However smart or good you are ,the limited vacancies in the rank of colonel permits only a few officers to become colonels(abt 22% of the total strength in a course)
    *Any adverse remark even of an innocuous nature in the ACR ensures you are sealed for the future.
    Officers who have been awarded with medals for gallntry have not made it to the rank of colonel due to points mentioned above.
    So dear tax payer please do not base your arguements based on selection ranks.Each service has its own pecularities and it would be immature /unfair to make comparisons !

  43. ToTheDeath September 14, 2008 at 9:37 pm #

    @ Taxpayer

    A couple of observations:
    a) You calculate that if PB-4 is granted to Lt Col’s then only 38% officers will remain in PB-3. To be fair to the Services, can you please inform us what is the % of IAS officers in PB-3? That should, by itself, settle the remarkable argument you have raised.
    b) In the Armed Forces all, repeat all, officers have to stagnate in PB-3 for a minimum of 20yrs. In which other service does such stagnation occur?

  44. HOWLER September 14, 2008 at 10:01 pm #

    COME ON GUYS, GIVE IT A BREAK. stop making a noise about the logic of the SCPC. And whats this fixation with the WoP? come on, it one of those great relics of the past that some indians will just not let go. Cant blame them really, they suffer from PMRB (past men rehne ki bimari). If at all you wnt give credence to the WoP, then it needs to be fairly revised. situaion has changed so dramatically, that at least the army ranks put upa poor justification for thier current places inthe this bhoj patra. protocols are defined on the basis of the critical functionalities and the assessment of the importance attachd with the listed persons/ranks. Probably, when the Lt Col was included in the WoP at the place where you keep on refferring to, it was when he was a independent unit commander. You bring him down twice and reep all the benefits of the upgradation, but forgot to correspondingly bring him down the ladder in the WoP ! Thats the great services logic at work. The work that you nw think that a Lt Col is worth, is probably that of what a captain did when the WoP was originally written! So why dont you make corresponding down gradation of this fellow in it too? Same things apply to all other services ranks, except for the chief and the vice chief, because those are appointments and not ranks, for goodness sake! Once you understand this logic, you will under stand the SCPC logic. It has merely put you in places where you all actually belong. Why should the carry forward the mistake of the MHA or who ever, whose resposibility was to make corresponding downgradation of the services ranks in the WoP!

  45. menon September 14, 2008 at 10:20 pm #

    @ HOWLER

    The same goes for the civil services. The Bureaucrats who have thrown the adminstration of the country into the sewers should also be put there – in the sewers and graded accordingly.
    If you talk of functions then I as citizen of India would like to have 50 collectors in all metros, 20 Collectors in all tier II cities because these people are not at all functional. Watch the stagnation then and watch them raise their pay scales. I would like them to be accountable for any delay for procees of any procedure which I as a citizen am entitled to and for which they extract taxes from me.
    I want them to be hung for corruption and misuse of office. The Bureaucrats have kept their strenght low even if means inability to administer and the country going to the dogs.
    Why cant we have cameras in the Govt offices? Why can’t MLAs and MP who have begged for the votes of the people also come under the category of civil servants and be proscuted as such for offences relating to misuse of office at any time even after relinquishing office?
    Howler, you ought to be Howling against these rather than baying against the Only functional Govt. organisation – the military. The very same military that the Bureaucrats are trying to subvert and get into their fold of tainted morals.

  46. menon September 14, 2008 at 10:20 pm #

    @ HOWLER

    The same goes for the civil services. The Bureaucrats who have thrown the adminstration of the country into the sewers should also be put there – in the sewers and graded accordingly.
    If you talk of functions then I as citizen of India would like to have 50 collectors in all metros, 20 Collectors in all tier II cities because these people are not at all functional. Watch the stagnation then and watch them raise their pay scales. I would like them to be accountable for any delay for procees of any procedure which I as a citizen am entitled to and for which they extract taxes from me.
    I want them to be hung for corruption and misuse of office. The Bureaucrats have kept their strenght low even if means inability to administer and the country going to the dogs.
    Why cant we have cameras in the Govt offices? Why can’t MLAs and MP who have begged for the votes of the people also come under the category of civil servants and be prosecuted as such for offences relating to misuse of office at any time even after relinquishing office?
    Howler, you ought to be Howling against these rather than baying against the Only functional Govt. organisation – the military. The very same military that the Bureaucrats are trying to subvert and get into their fold of tainted morals.

  47. menon September 14, 2008 at 10:22 pm #

    Howler — The Moons up —-Know what your Bimaari is?

  48. Taxpayer September 14, 2008 at 11:29 pm #

    @ well said howler in nice words.

    All gentlemen who have responded to my posts are making following error :-

    (a) 20 years back Lt Col was a select post and so was SE (director). A regiment used to be commanded by a Lt Col as brought out by howler. First this post was down graded in 1985 when the command was upgraded from a Lt Col to full Col. Second time, it was again down graded by AVSC , which downgraded it further to make it a non select time scale post to be attained by every officer irrespective of merit and competence after period of 13 years.
    So effectively now Lt Col post now stand fown graded by two rank to a rank and stature that of a Capt. However the pay, perks and WoP (which every one keep on quoting) remained unchanged. so despite of such downgradation of Lt Col to a rank of a capt , you are still equating Lt Col (who is now performing work of a capt) with that of a director (which are attained by IAS officers only after their one tenure as district collectors.)
    SCPC not only corrected these two issues but also maintained the finaicial advantge of armed forces intact through MSP.

    This has been very correctly brounght out by howler.

    Rather than fighting with the govt. for the grant for PB-4 for Lt Col the correct approach would be to abolish one rank either of Capt or Maj or Lt Col (as armed forces have been repeatdly told by ministry and govt. to reduce one rank and bring down the no. of levels in forces at par with that of civil services) and follow civil services pattern for grant of JAG and NFSG to their officers, rather than time scale business of doing self goal through AVSC I and II.

    (2) From taxpayer’s point of view huge recurring loss of public money by posting of senior army officers in doing jobs of junior civil posts where no military training is required (when there is already huge shortage of officers in army)in civil organisation like MES, GREF, DGQA, etc. must be stopped at the earliest.

  49. menon September 15, 2008 at 8:30 am #

    @ Taxpayer

    I am glad you agree that the AVSC and the PC have downgraded the Army status —–quote ‘First this post was down graded in 1985 when the command was upgraded from a Lt Col to full Col. Second time, it was again down graded by AVSC ,’unquote.
    This down gradation began even prior to 1985 and was premeditated
    Going by your logic today an IG police (IPS) is appointed where an SP functioned 20 years ago. Why isn’t this rank also downgraded? Just because he wears ranks that look like a Maj Gen he wants to be equated with a Maj Gen.
    Obvious from your blogs have no knowledge of the Armed forces. Today the Armed forces are different. There is a lot of difference between a Spit fire and a Su 30 Sqn. Not even the MNC whiz kids would have worked on such hi-tech equipment as would the Army officers. This is not the MES where like Grimms Fairy tales we are aware of contractors and BSO tales. The less we compare the Military with the MES it is better. Compare them with any allied civil service cadre, but MES don’t go that low. We’ve all been victims of this clan.
    I don’t think you understand the meaning of MSP. It is not financial advantage. If it was financial advantage it could have been got through better pay band. This shallow thing is reflected by many half baked civilian organisations that live off the military.

    Para (2) – I agree

    You cannot abolish a rank. An army is structured as such. This is what the Babus don’t understand. We cannot change the rank of a Havildar to and call him a General. People make this mistake when they see the IPS for whom the command structure is not sacrosanct. They don’t mind making a new entrant wear ranks that look like a Brig or a field Marshal.
    The Indian Army will be the laughing stock of Militaries the world over if we have Brigs as Section commanders and Generals as Platoon commanders. The wily IAS has permitted the IPS to wear military type ranks just so that they can use this visual look alike to downgrade the Army.
    Now how do they how they create posts as stated in Para 2. The Secretary Ex Servicemen’s Welfare is an IAS Officer. What does this man know about the needs of the Veterans? This should have been manned by a Col who would have known better.

  50. Blake September 15, 2008 at 11:43 am #

    @Menon
    It all seems a lost cause , the WoP , the paygrades , the whole gamut.!And how do you explain the nuances of Service life and leadership to people who have never willfully stepped into Mortal danger at any time in their lives, leave alone led their men into it ?!

    And are we really discussing MES ? What a absolute sham….

    There is no doubt that we have reached the stage where the soldier has to cry hoarse about his paycheck and his status in the society primarily because his only true representatives, our Top Brass , have stopped being soldiers a long time ago .These Puny “pilpilla” men have bent backwards to such an extent , that today we here are actually discussing the legality of parity of an MES employee with a Commanding Officer of a fighting Unit.
    If nothing else , then maybe a little remaining dignity , in our uniform or the posts we have occupied , should stop us from continuing this rebuttal any more

    As is the norm , let the great man be quoted and remembered
    “There is a corollary to the conception of being too proud to fight. It is that the humble have to do most of the fighting.”

    Or is humility no longer a virtue….?

  51. Racer September 15, 2008 at 12:16 pm #

    @Blake

    Well said.
    Are you a Fighter Pilot?
    Only they can be as ”humble” as you are.
    Let others keep responding to the trash by Howler ( An Apt name for a DOG)
    Taxpayer and the lot.
    Fly High Baby.

  52. menon September 15, 2008 at 12:58 pm #

    @ Blake

    ‘It all seems a lost cause , the WoP , the paygrades , the whole gamut.!And how do you explain the nuances of Service life and leadership to people who have never willfully stepped into Mortal danger’

    ITS NOT LOST. ITS JUST BEGUN.

    The hitherto accept-all-crap-with-dignity Military has told the Babus to F*** off.
    The writings on the wall are clear. If they don’t heed the warnings, they may be F***ed –
    Cause & Effect.
    Hope these dummies understand and hope these duplicate quasi military men do not try the “Behti ganga Mein Haath dhona’ stunt. If they want to press for better pay scales let them do so with their own B*lls.
    @ Racer
    Having been out in the civil for so long I have understood that dignity is not the best of virtues. Keep quiet and you will be like a mushroom – In the dark and fed a lot of shit. A coward is more dangerous than a warrior. He has no virtues that restrain him to strike from the back.
    In fact the media represents the People of the Country. Todays BIG news was Abhishek Bachhan having a narrow escape when he was miles away from the Bomb blasts in Delhi. Thats hot news – not the people who died because of Bureacratic indifference which led to the Bomb blasts. Not the Army man who died in Kashmir defending the country he thinks is his, while the country men think that this is also some job that can be outsourced to the Russian Mafia.

  53. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 15, 2008 at 1:00 pm #

    @Blake
    while i agree with you regarding dignity,please do not forget that we need to sharpen our legal arguments apart from our fighting skills.
    Every thing need to be argued in public in the modern context & one can do nothing about it.Today the blogs are the fighting ground & RTI your weapon & the law your judge.
    If you lose the argument,you lose your case.Hence sharpen your argument skills & let out your feelings.
    You may not be realising this but many people in authority are also reading this & making their own case.
    There are many more battles ahead & we require all our wits together.
    Speaking for myslef i have had IAS,MES,Scientist ,Professor & Bankers as close relaives & i know what they all think about the army. (Many of them don’t even believe that I am a softwre consultant since when did army start making software engineers? )

    It is also our mistake that we have not sensitised the civil population about our service life & we are paying the price for that.

  54. Blogs Eater September 15, 2008 at 1:55 pm #

    @ everybody
    Dogs, when they cry is known as “Howling” So everybody should know what “Howler” Means. All the service guys/gals should have seen This “Sample of a Howlers’ ” Posts sometime back called “SCPC The Other Side I, II, etc…He would have deleted those posts becoz of the Bashing he got, Just Ignore him, he is as good as a beggar on the street.

  55. Shankar September 15, 2008 at 2:12 pm #

    Service guys are aggrieved after PB3 and PB 4 distinction.Instead of assuaging the feelings and setting right the status quo,various arguments are flouted to justify the SPC recommendations. This blog is not neutral.In the garb of neutrality it is siding with SPC,Babus and discussing MES issues.
    And we keep seeing on page 8 a single line column major killed in action,jawans killed and so on.
    We dont need empathy but atleast this blog can stop sermonising the soldiers without understanding service life is all about.
    When George Fernandes arguably one of the best defence ministers India had ever had, called the Defence ministry officials team to visit Siachin to understand requriement of Snowmobiles, most of the babus avoided the trip and some of them preferred to stay in the base camp.So much for the understanding of service life.SPC team declined offer to travel in a warship and submarine and preferred to observe service life in the lawns of the officer’s mess.

    Here we are drawing unsuspecting service officers in to arguement and bashing them-no doubt the blogger’s objective seems to be getting fulfilled with few die hard supporters of the blogger.The blogger is also too clever by half in his arguements to randomly select passaged to justify the services bashing

    Let us respect the last institution which is left in the Indian set up and atleast restore the status quo instead of arguements to demean the services in each and every blog.

  56. go getter September 15, 2008 at 2:33 pm #

    Col Venkatesh makes a very valid point, which those officers who will be around for the Seventh Pay Comm, should take serious note of.
    The point is that the Defence Services should realise that Pay Comms are serious business…not a biscuit that the IAS throw at you every 10-12 years; and when you’ve seen the size of the biscuit you look up to the Master to see if that imploring look in ur eye will earn you a crumb or two more ( by way of anomalies etc).
    The Services should form a brains trust straight away…i am not referring to the bunch appealing for parity today…i am talking of a project that should be tasked to the best Mgmt companies in the country which will actually spell out a pro Services financial compensation for the time to come..and this should have representation from the three Services and not just some passed over General or Brig..they will take too much time to do too little…am talking about Maj, Lt Col etc who will probaly be Brigs at the time of reckoning, the Seventh CPC.
    The Project study should cater to every concievable difficulty, internal heirarchial restriction, effects of Army Act on the individual’s liberty, promotional aspects, effect on re employability of Infantry and Generals service oficers of the Navy etc, and look at presenting to the PM a year before the Seventh CPC, a paper on what the Seventh CPC should actually take note of.
    The services need to force the IAS’ hand gentlemen and not wait for the crumb…
    We also need to change the way we interact with the IAS…the IAS treat the Service officers in the same way that the CDA, MES treat the FAujis…what is that u may ask….
    The IAS behave like Auditors at Sena Bhavan, their file notings are a clear indication of that….they want higher ranked Generals coming to them for clearing their files, to explain what they want, for getting their foreign sorties approved. Wheteher its a procurement file or a foriegn trip, te generals should ignore the IAS and let them hold files up. All the delay can be clearly attributed to them.
    Once this sort of a stand is taken then they will slowly fall in line and treating Generals with more deference and respect. The Services will start winning the more important wars…..

    just a few thoughts my friends in the fauj

  57. Rohit September 15, 2008 at 5:24 pm #

    1. I was almost convinced by pragmatic’s and the 6th CPC’s rationale before two points spruced up in my mind which I would seek an answer to-

    Firstly, that the armed forces are facing shortage of quality officer cadre in year 2008, was made known to the CPC. With this background information and at this point of time, the CPC decides to ‘SET RIGHT’ the situation by bringing Lt Cols to equivalance of S-21 and S-22 in the civil services. Were the civil services suffering similar exodus of officers. Or was the shortage stated by the services considered hogwash by the 6 CPC.
    In that case, 6 cpc would have gone into details as to how the army can be manned by a reduced no of officers. Did they think there were excessive no of officers in the forces which will now be rightsized as lesser people will join? Or may be the CPC thought that the army is not justified in maintaining a level/ standard in the intake of officers and that the standard can be convienietly reduced. They surely would have found out that the external and internal threat perception has changed for the better since the last cpc? Pray, In which sectors?

    Did they consider the above or have they left this business to the service chiefs? Or did they think that the poor Lt Cols will have no other option and they will lump it eventually.

    Secondly, The CPC would surely have noticed that there is a demand for educated professionals in the private sector. We in the armed forces too have got a comparable number of officers who are post graduates, (and equivalant) as any of the civil services. Hence, there need not be any superiority complex among the civil servants on that account. No officer, who proceeds to the civvy street, will be found wanting on this aspect .

    The nation, may not, on the otherhand, again find such a band of brothers, god forbid, if it ever needs them.

  58. Vikram September 15, 2008 at 9:28 pm #

    Whoever runs this blog is a screwball who doesnt identify himself.

  59. Kalasi (Indian Naval Sailor) September 15, 2008 at 9:34 pm #

    the forces does not want Mr Albert Einstein nor Mr Been, all they want is mediocre (preferably with service background), now these mediocre s work their way up (it is indeed tough ask), now they are denied, rightful entailment of their privileges by civilians (bureaucrats), who are superior in qualification, IQ, corruption etc. and are not gagged like servicemen.

    PBORs – r these guys happy of SPC? the answer is – a big silence. There is no one for them to voice their opinion, because these guys are real low life of democratic India. Many spoke about exodus of Officers, what about exodus of Men, what about the quality of men getting enrolled. what about the morale of these men?

    i request pragmatic to start a blog on this subject to address the concerns of PBORs

  60. menon September 15, 2008 at 9:40 pm #

    Well said Kalasi. No need to start another blog. Just join in and contribute so that all get to know the mischievious goof ups of the Babus.

  61. HOWLER September 15, 2008 at 10:16 pm #

    whatever menon ji says, is nothing over and above the common street gossip every day. It doesnt lead us any where near the answer to the question as to why placement of the services rank should not be commensurately revised in the WoP as per their own review (read “upgradation”) with in the organisations? Why you want to fool the people outside and enjoy the both sides of the world!
    If the logic for beter payscales is placement in the WoP, then Perhaps menon ji, has chosen to forget that a DM is still running the magistracy in the district, collector is still collecting the revenue from same designated areas, SP still heads the police in a district. And that is why they are still maintaining their places in the WoP. Civil administration justifies its place there as there is no chnge in their status/functions/roles. We still have to see DM doing the job that a tehsildar or numberdar was doing earlier. You rejoice when you ask your Lt Col to do a job that a Captain was doing earlier. All in the name of upgradation, coz that ensures speedy promotions and higher wages. But you dont want to bring down the matching downward revision of Lt Col in WoP. you still want to compare him to the director or the commandants in CPMFs! Even though these two are still doing the same job that they were doing earlier.It defies all sane logic!
    And yes, Menonji may like to have a look outside at the sky right now, …Its a FULL MOON !! Its only adds to the HOWLER’s logic…

  62. Kmenon September 15, 2008 at 10:19 pm #

    “There is just too much hulaboo about Officers in our Armed Forces being underpaid.
    They only like to compare themselves with the very top management as far as salaries go. The perquisites of office like free ration, subsidised canteen facilities,concessional travel, housing, liberal leave facilities amongst a host of others dont seem to count. And what of the quality of life available in the Forces? No civilian career can offer so much.

    Its time Officers started looking around and at salaries in REAL India and consider themselves privileged that a poor land like ours offers them so much.”

    quoted in a magazine

  63. pappu September 15, 2008 at 10:58 pm #

    Dear Kmenon,
    Welcome to join the party!Come and enjoy the privilages.
    You forgot to add free sight seeing,desert safari,Free helicopter rides,free bullets,free coffins etc..

  64. BSF September 16, 2008 at 7:50 am #

    @howler

    Thanks howler for putting truth crisp and clear among the maze of all lies being put by our friends who really don’t want to admit the truth.

    They want commandant CPMF Battalion Commandant pay scale to be given to a LT Col who is employed as company commander (equal to that of
    Deputy Commandant- (doing the job of a capt as per earlier WoP when Regiments used to be commanded by Lt Col up to 1985. )

    It is a case of double trouble – not only downgrade the post of Lt Col by two level but also demand his equivalence & pay with higher ranks of Commandant of CPMF/ Director on Civil Side as per earlier WoP.

    Don’t you think that CPMF/ civil services are being given step motherly treatment by granting all undue favours to armed forces as if civil services areto be treated like shudras in comparison to armed forces.

    Earlier Lt Col used to do the job of an SE in early eighties , but now he is doing the job of a STS (EE ) level in and working under and SE (Director) and still they want to equate Lt Col with Director (SE). Earlier Maj were doing the job of EE (STS) in MES now they are doing job of AEE (JTS) & AE/ BSO group B level posts in MES but they want the pay scale of JAG for a Maj with just 6 years of services ( 4 years in case of Tech Entry officers of Corps of Engineers)

    Imagine an office with just 4 years of services (Tech Entry officers of Corps of Engineers) is being demanded JAG and officer of rank of Lt Col with 11 years of service (Tech Entry officers of Corps of Engineers) is being demanded and being equated with director/ SE.

    no body can deny these facts. It is time that our friends understand the logic of SCPC.

  65. menon September 16, 2008 at 8:52 am #

    Howler – Galli mein awaara ki tarah ghoomo ge to sooch bhi street gossip aur awaara hi hogi.
    DM is ‘supposed’ to run the magistracy. The state of the Nation today is ample evidence of incompetence of well paid government servants. Why have a Collector when you have a DRO? Isn’t revenue collection his job? The Collector should drop his British title and be called District Administrative officer. Bura lage gaa kya? This is his primary job which he doesn’t do and is paid for, and people like you say ‘Wah Taj’.
    Why are you so dumb? On one hand you say that Lt Cols are degraded and so should be paid as such but can’t you understand what I said. Yours is the typical intelligence of the administrative set up. I reiterate.
    An SP used to be the Police Commissioner.
    Understood?
    He used to ape military badges of rank like a Lt Col.

    Understood?

    Today the same post is held by someone who apes the badges of rank of Maj Gen.

    Understood?

    So – why does he want to be paid equal to Maj Gen when his task is the same as that of an erstwhile SP.?

    Understood?

    Bhai, farsi to mein jaanta nahin.
    I believe when the moon wanes your condition improves. Maybe you should try to comprehend then. Incidentally go down to some operational areas and stay for some time – I bet your sweet ar*e .YOU will DEMAND 10 times more.

    @ BSF

    Munna. Jab bade bolte hain beech mein nahin bolte. Aakhir dosh to hamaara hi hain. Hamin ne tumhe sikhaya hain. Ab behti ganga mein haat dhona chahte ho? Kyon nahin apne logon ke saath maango aur agar khush ho to Buzurgo ke saamne bola math karo. Itni tameez to honi chaiyye.

    BSF, incidentally this is what the ilk of Howler, Taxpayer want? Get inter services to bicker and say look they are fighting we are right so screw them. Angrezon se sikha hain Today it is the Army tomorrow they will single you out and the Army will remember that you were not our best of friends. So, if it doesn’t affect your purse keep quiet… If the MES or BSF feel they want more – start a blog and discuss it. Doosro ke pyjame mein kyo interest le rahe ho?
    Apna samaan nahin hain kya?

  66. Barking Dog September 16, 2008 at 5:28 pm #

    The salary drawn by any army/ air force / navy officer is more than Rs. 16000/- per month even at the entry level than an IAS/ civil service officer. This is as under :-
    (Monthly average figures)

    (a) MSP- Rs. 6000/- +DA 16 % – = 7000
    (b) Free Ration = 1000
    (c) House Rent Subsidy = 1500
    (d) Free Electricity = 500
    (e) Canteen Benefits = 500
    (f) Travel Concessions = 1000
    (g) Free Transport for children = 500
    (h) Free Air Courier = 2000
    (j) Other misc allowances = 2000
    Total 16000/-

    In addition, there are area specific and situation specific allowances, Qualification allowances etc. There are benefits like counting of MSP for pension etc.. There are other perks like quality life in cantts, Messes, officers institutes. etc- which have no equal in Civil services life.

    No civil services can match them.

    Still it is spread through media that forces have been short charged by SCPC and CoS?

    who can believe it , except fools?

  67. menon September 16, 2008 at 6:06 pm #

    @ Barking dog

    What about the Special Allowance, Telephone attendant allowance, hafta allowance that the civil service chap gets. He roams around in his state and after 14 years is stuck in the State capital till he retires or he falls out with his Political bosses after which he pulls strings for a Centre posting till the Govt changes.
    I don’t know where you cook up this disinformation. Free air courier, free electricity and don’t miss the sundry entry of miscellaneous allowances. etc. I can understand that like the other Babus you are trying to fuddle people with half baked information.
    Quality life is what our positive attitude makes it.
    Imagine a Collector or SP who uses his vehicle 24/7. Try going with the Collector or Commissioner Police to a shop or Restaurant. Bills are never given.
    Indians aren’t fools and Indians don’t general get upset over barking dogs. We have so many of them on our streets.. A civil service chap retires with more than 30 lakhs as compared to his Military counterpart ( haftas not inclusive). His life has revolved around one state and in the later years he has stayed in State capital at that crucial time when his children are in the higher classes. Match that.

  68. Super barking dog September 16, 2008 at 6:09 pm #

    @ Barking dog

    You forgot the comparison with IAS/Allied Services and your service – the MES

    (a) BSP : Rs 50,000 (Bribe Service Pay)
    (b) Free vehicle for self and family : 20,000
    (c) Mobile bills paid by the local goon : 10,000
    (d) IFP : 50,000 (Illegal Freebies Pay)
    (e) OIMA : 50,000 (Other illegal misc allowances)

    Stop talking shit. Do you mean that the allowances tabulated by you are not available in one form or the other in the civil services ?
    And how much commission do you get out of each MES theka from thekedars Mr SE Barking Dog ?

  69. ToTheDeath September 16, 2008 at 6:58 pm #

    @ Barking Dog

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If what you claim is true then
    a) Why is there a massive shortage of officers in the Armed Forces?
    b) Why are there hardly any IAS\IPS\MES officers putting in their papers after 20yrs service like the Defence Officers are doing?
    C’mon, man. Try some other trick to fool the world to pull down the Defence Forces – the same forces who keep the enemy away and safeguard you. And sacrifice their life for blokes like you. Talk of ingratitude !

  70. menon September 16, 2008 at 7:52 pm #

    Dedicated to the sanity of Babudom and those who seek logic. Maybe be they should question the logic of why their Mothers took care of them or why their Fathers slogged their a*se off to bring them up.
    Since some facts of allaowances are popping up like bollywood B grade thrilliers I feel the explanation which these people will understand is:

    Our neighbours have suffered the folly of a second rate army. They lost one Limb and have frequently been under Martial law, which is the worst thing to happen in a Democracy because though an army man, I say that power corrupts and an Army in power is real bad news.

    Today power has corrupted the Bureaucrats to the extent of insolence. Thank God they do not have military power but are bad enough without it.

    Here is a 1971 incident which may be why most people in Delhi are not under foreign occupation – an address like Occupied Delhi. The Heroes were not run of the mill Babus but Majors and Lt Cols and today the Indian borders are what it is because of them. You don’t seek logic to give these men their status and the money to maintain it.

    “INSHA ALLAH we will have breakfast at Longewala, lunch at Ramgarh and dinner at Jaisalmer,” announced Brig Tariq Mir, Commander 51 Brigade, Pakistan Army to his men. But he was proved wrong by men of the Alfa Company of 23 Punjab Regiment led by Major Kuldip Singh Chandpuri, MVC, in the 1971 Indo-Pak conflict.

    The Army’s backbone and the claws are at the unit level and if we don’t want our adversaries to dine on the lawns of Rashtrapathi Bhawan we must ensure a competent Military where volunteers are motivated and feel that they have some status in society and also the money to maintain their status. The Military should not have to clamour for their respect.

    I don’t see any logic in mathematical calculations and comparisons to those organisations where screwing the Country comes first – always and everytime.

    Bureaucratic incompetence takes years to fester and can be rectified but military incompetence is a death knell. The effects of down gradation are already showing signs like the UN affair, Ketchup Cols etc. These are mild tremors. The major ones will come when the military qualifies as the last choice for employment. The Babus and the keepers of the countries coffers like Howler, barking Dog, taxpayer etc will wonder WHY?
    Their hurdles – will one day get them a foriegn passport.
    We Indians are good at living under foreign rule. 1000 years was not enough.

  71. Veeru September 16, 2008 at 9:33 pm #

    I am loving it!

  72. menon September 16, 2008 at 9:49 pm #

    @ Veeru

    Pizza se Burger?

    Shifting loyalties from Italian to American?

  73. pappu September 16, 2008 at 10:23 pm #

    Why these MES guys so upset.Is this an MES blog site?
    Enjoy the perks and quality of life offered by the military cantt, as long as you stay with the forces and thrive on the money you earn.
    But please keep your mouth shut on the affairs of defence forces,which you do not understand beyond matters related to work.
    We would not like to be compared to you!
    However hard you may try you will remain the “MES” chap!And your director status will remain within the four walls of your office!

  74. Racer September 16, 2008 at 11:22 pm #

    @Pragmatic

    ANY VIEWS?
    MAYBE – TOP BRASS CONSPIRACY.

    Mr Rao, the IFS officer who died in the Kabul bomb blast, that he announced several benefits for his next of kin. These include full salary and government accommodation till the officer would have retired in 2023. It is undisputable that every possible succour must be provided to the bereaved family under such circumstances. Yet, without prejudice to this thought or to the sacred memory of the deceased, certain politically incorrect questions arise.

    What separates the case of Mr Rao from that of Brig RD Mehta, or for that matter Col V Vasanth andscores of other army personnel who lay down their lives in the line of duty actively combating terrorism almost every day? Why has no one ever thought of such benefits for their families? Is there any doubt about their devotion to duty? Are their lives any less precious to their families, or to the nation? Or is it ‘no big deal’ because it is par for the course, a professional hazard for services personnel to lay down their lives? The violent death of a diplomat or bureaucrat, on the other hand , is a rare occurrence thus evoking greater sympathy?

    All along, we are being told that that the armed forces are supposed to be at par with other services when it comes to fixing pay and allowances. This is the standard argument forwarded for denying a separate pay commission for the services. By that logic, the death benefits for other services should be the same as those applicable to the armed forces. The reason for these double standards is therefore hard to fathom. Irrespective of the reasons or sentiments behind such random acts of kindness, it must be understood that it undermines the supreme sacrifice made by others, and is liable to affect the morale of their comrades.

    It is time that the government decided once and for all whether the armed forces are at par with other central services or not, and act responsibly rather than arbitrarily

  75. HOWLER September 17, 2008 at 2:00 am #

    Pragmatic may probably like to rename this blog as “BREAKING NEWS” !
    With the likes of menonji dishing out nonsensical stuff like “An SP used to be the Police Commissioner who used to wear the badges of a Lt Col and now that of a Maj Gen!” Its just like a dispatch from a run of the mill reporter of some even more run of the mill news channel that have proliferated these days with a aim of creating some stupid sensation to gain TRPs! probably menonji needs to first understand the basic nuances of the civil administration side to discern the difference between a commissionerate and a superintendent of police and their hierarchical differences historically. This is not the forum to enlighten the persons of menonji’s levels of ignorance! It will only be appropriate to let him research some more on the such issues. He has probably been bestowed with enough IQ to realise the inadequacy of his competence put forth any valid argument in this area. Till such time lets bear with his defeatist outbursts that do not merit any response. He just goes kicking and screaming in the darkness like a true disoriented looser.

    Of all the garbled junk flowing from him, the only point meriting consideration is the wearing of similar ranks by other uniformed forces. These forces should really quit wearing not only rank badges, but also uniforms on the patters of the services. Lets face it, our countrymen identify all that is khaki as police and all that is camouflaged as the army. As such he CPMFs have the most urgent need to shun the aspirations of dressing alike army. People always mistake CPMfs for the army, for all their deeds during the need of the nations. And the services that arrive the last on the scene walk away with all the adulation for all the work done by CPMFs. Latest example is the Bihar floods. CPMFs were the first to arrive on the scene to manage the crisis and they will continue till the very last, but the PR machine of the services have ensured that only they are ones that are only reported doing all the job. wearing of similar uniforms and badges by the CPMFs only furthered this blatant lie as no one could spot them distinctly on the scene. The war that menonji refers to in one of his screams in the darkness was also the one in which all the CPMFs had a crucial role. But no one knows about it as this has been lost in the post war self congratulatory screams of the services.

    But this what the then PM had to say about the role of one of the CPMFs in the war that menonji referred to and i quote:

    “As the first line of defence, the Border Security Force had to bear the immediate brunt of the enemy onslaught. The manner in which they faced enemy fire and the support they gave to the Army has played a crucial role in our ultimate success. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families of the men and the officers who have sacrificed their lives in the defence of India and her values. I should like to express the gratitude of the Government and the people of India to you (Rustamji, the then DG BSF) and to your men.”
    – Indira Gandhi
    And there lies the truth Munna. The detrimental effects on CPMFs of the half truths propagated by the services are not confined merely to stealing of some credit. The raw deal meted out to the CPMFs in the SCPC speaks volumes about it.
    Its easy to castigate others in the hallucinating intoxication of self congratulation. The angrezi without grammar served by menonji,(which is so characteristic of any parlance within the services) is a mere manifestation of this hallucination.
    And yes menonji the moon is still shining>>>>

  76. ToTheDeath September 17, 2008 at 7:13 am #

    @ HOWLER

    Amusing !

  77. menon September 17, 2008 at 8:38 am #

    @ Howler

    Howling does not mean that it is a fact. In my city the Police Commissioner has in the last 4 years changed his Badges of rank from a Brig look alike (DIG) to a Maj Gen (IG) look alike. Why the pay hike and equation when the task is the same or maybe less? Incidentally, in central India when you referred to a Police Kaptaan the policemen used to direct you to an SP. Like the wily chap that you are you have brought in the PMF wearing badges of rank similar to the Army. When the PMF wears badges of rank like the Army there is no problem since they will operate together in war. But, when civilians start flying the Jolly Roger and wear eye patches and military rank badges it is objectionable.

    Like the wily Babu you have again tried to pit the PMF against the Army so that you can sit back and watch the fight. Typical of you guys. If you read and could comprehend my post nowhere have I said that the PMF have not done their job? I have just asked them to not fall prey to your machinations. Instead of coming out with facts your post seems to be one to get the MES – BSF and the Military to quibble. Very typical of the Howling sly wolf that waits for the Tigers to prey and then scavenge the remains.
    I do understand that when you are cornered and the truth is out you do feel that it is garbled and like your political masters would like to say that they are lies propagated by the opposition. Have the b*lls to face the truth. Your types are so steeped in the quagmire of corruption that the truth is horrible and gibberish. In fact if you go through your promotion rules for the civil services they amended the rules just prior to the announcement of the SCPC to get to a higher level at a younger service. More pay with less work.
    That’s being crafty.
    So, Bachhe, don’t talk crap. Try to exercise whatever little you have between your ears to understand logic even though the moon is up.

  78. menon September 17, 2008 at 12:22 pm #

    @ Howler

    I was trying to comprend your line of absurd dimwitted thinking and here is what I got as the meaning of ‘Howler’
    Noun: howler hawlu(r)
    1 A joke that seems extremely funny
    2 Monkey of tropical South American forests having a loud howling cry
    3 A glaring blunder
    The moon notwithstanding you seem to be all three.

  79. pappu September 17, 2008 at 3:57 pm #

    @howler

    As the first line of defence, the Border Security Force has to bear the immediate brunt of the enemy onslaught
    This is a real howler!
    sure this guy will make it to the def sec!

  80. Barking Dog September 17, 2008 at 6:43 pm #

    Barking Dog barking again !

    The salary drawn by any army/ air force / navy officer is more than Rs. 16000/- per month even at the entry level than an IAS/ civil service officer. This is as under :-
    (Monthly average figures)

    (a) MSP- Rs. 6000/- +DA 16 % – = 7000
    (b) Free Ration = 1000
    (c) House Rent Subsidy = 1500
    (d) Free Electricity = 500
    (e) Canteen Benefits = 500
    (f) Travel Concessions = 1000
    (g) Free Transport for children = 500
    (h) Free Air Courier = 2000
    (j) Other misc allowances = 2000
    Total 16000/-

    In addition, there are area specific and situation specific allowances, Qualification allowances etc. There are benefits like counting of MSP for pension etc.. There are other perks like quality life in cantts, Messes, officers institutes. etc- which have no equal in Civil services life.

    No civil services can match them.

    Still it is spread through media that forces have been short charged by SCPC and CoS?

    who can believe it , except fools?

  81. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 17, 2008 at 7:31 pm #

    @Barking Dog
    Barking Dog barking again !
    Keep on barking.You will not have any sleep & will die a natural death

  82. menon September 17, 2008 at 7:46 pm #

    @ Barking dog
    Time for your rabies and distemper shots.
    We are not bothered about your spasmodic concocted outbursts. Haven’t you heard
    ‘Barking dogs seldom bite’

  83. menon September 17, 2008 at 9:45 pm #

    Howler – The moons up! AAARRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOO!
    Whats your genetic origin?
    Just to educate you – you don’t say CPMF . PMF is a Centre force. States don’t have PMF.
    You have CPOs like the CISF, CRPF etc and are distinct from State Police Organisations like Delhi Police, Maharashtra Police, State Armed Police Battalions etc.
    PMF are BSF, Assam Rifles etc.
    Rules of engagement by State are also different for CPOs and PMF.

  84. Racer September 18, 2008 at 2:17 pm #

    Brit armed forces might face mass “walkouts” over poor pays: Report
    Submitted by Sahil Nagpal on Wed, 09/17/2008 – 11:49. General News London

    London, Sept 17 : A serious crisis looms large over British defence forces as there is a possibility of a mass walkout due to massive under-funding and poor pay scales, as much of the defence budget is being spent on forces deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, a report titled “Overcoming The Defence Crisis” backed by former military chiefs has warned.

    It said that all the three major political parties must unite to back the “woefully under-funded” forces whose budget “urgently needs to be increased” from the current 34 billion to 50 billion dollars over the next three years.

    The mass resignations might paralyze the British defence forces, the report said and added that a “huge burden” has been placed on the forces with more than 12,000 troops deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan that has led to an immense strain on both troops and equipment.

    “The national interest requires the full-hearted engagement of Government and Opposition to rehabilitate our Armed Forces and repair our defences. Now is no longer the time for party politics,” The Telegraph quoted Winston Churchill, the UKNDA”s president and grandson of the wartime leader, as saying.

    He warned that the Forces were “in crisis” with funding the lowest since 1930s when “inadequate defence provision paved the way directly to world war”.

    The report highlights as a serious worry over the continued drain of personnel which saw 20,000 troops resign last year fed up with poor pay, time away from families and inadequate accommodation. “Remedial action can no longer be delayed without running the unacceptable risk of mass retirements from the widely demoralised Armed Forces,” said the report compiled by former generals, admirals and academics.

    It suggested that in order to reverse the “unacceptable threat of major resignations” and restore morale the Services need a rapid improvement in pay, kit and manpower. “The serious inadequacy of Britain”s current and planned defence provision is undeniable,” the 20 page report said. (ANI)

  85. gs September 18, 2008 at 7:15 pm #

    @barking dog
    (a) MSP- Rs. 6000/- +DA 16 % – = 7000
    (b) Free Ration = 1000
    (c) House Rent Subsidy = 1500
    (d) Free Electricity = 500
    (e) Canteen Benefits = 500
    (f) Travel Concessions = 1000
    (g) Free Transport for children = 500
    (h) Free Air Courier = 2000
    (j) Other misc allowances = 2000
    Total 16000/-

    thanks for the info , guide me so that i can avail of this so called money.

    Do not give half baked info.

    The fact of the matter is that there is no house rent subsidy available for military personnel, further electricity charges are limited to first 100 units only, there is no free air courier buddy .MSP has been factored as 6000 rupees after catering for all the other factors as quoted by you , by the SCPC.

    Check this link if you want to learn more, download annex.zip and u can read it.

    You are welcome to join the fauj for getting the “privelege” of MSP.

    Do you have it in you?

    Comments over to you.

  86. gs September 18, 2008 at 7:17 pm #

    link
    http://india.gov.in/govt/paycommission.php

  87. Pappu September 18, 2008 at 8:23 pm #

    All MES Babooz!
    Please folow the link to clear your doubts!http://indianmilitarybenefits.blogspot.com/2008/09/lt-colonels-and-superintending.html
    Now stop complaining and concentrate on your work!

  88. menon September 18, 2008 at 9:36 pm #

    The Armed forces should demand that the Congress be blacklisted and banned as a Political Party. Of course a lot of people may suggest that the Armed forces must remain apolitical but when the Politicians permit them to be used for Political games orchestrated by the IAS the military will soon find themselves as the pariah. Like other terrorist outfits the Congress Govts. have carried out subversion against India. Be it the 1962 ops which demoralised the Military due to Nehru’s arrogance or the Division of Kashmir. This is the second time that the country’s economy is down the drain. Last time we had our Gold reserves being pledged during the Congress regime. Chidambaram might try to project an aura of South Indian Intelligence but he actually is the paradigm of financial misappropriation. With a foreigner to lead them they have no love lost for the sovereignty of the State of India and will ensure that we are sold out to a foreign power.
    It doesn’t take so much deliberation to give the soldier his due. If 71 Crores can be allotted when the RBI says only 30 Crores are required why cant a wee bit of this money that the party plans to pilfer for elections be given to the rightful demands of the servicemen. The Foreigner can always scarper to the Sicilian Mountains after selling the country through the IAS pimps.

  89. Pragmatic September 19, 2008 at 1:00 am #

    @All:

    88 comments and only two pertinent to the question raised in the blogpost – Any Bright Ideas?. Such bankruptcy of ideas!

    Comment #1 by Navdeep:

    Two points. The army is not fighting its case on the WoP. Else they’d reject the whole SCPC (and even the Vth and the IVth CPCs). While it is a laudable idea, I wonder if it holds real merit in the arguments of the SCPC. Why does the WoP still talk about a Second Lieutenant, when it doesn’t exist any more?

    Second, was the edge given to the services in the Third CPC due to the SDA. If yes and if the MSP replaces it, that edge has to go. You can’t have the edge and the MSP. It is also on services’ own request for an MSP and equivalence of status. I think this is the argument that is hard to refute and unless the services develop a logic to counter this, not much headway will be made with the Cabinet on this subject.

    Comment #12 by Prakash:
    U mean to say after 1950 i .e after almost 48 yrs or u can say after third pay commssion i.e after 3 decades somebody has woken up tat the parity amongst service offficers and civilians was not right and necessitated relook??

    This is due to the incessant demands by the services for a MSP. If the MSP was not introduced in the SCPC, my guess is that the edge would have still continued.

    If CPC had actually followed u r logic and fixed Lt Cols as equivalent to erstwhile s-21 or s-22 grade then WHen Armed forces took up the case of lower grade pay for Lt Cols there was no reason for the Govt to accept the point and upgrade grade pay of Lt Cols to 7600/-. What was the reason for Govt not sticking to CPC Logic…. So My doubt is still unanswered as to why s-21 and s-22 were shifted to higher grade?

    It is the other way around. The government increased the grade pay of many civilian grades, including the S-21 and S-22. Since a Lt Colonel was deemed equal to S-21, his or her grade pay was also increased to the 7600/-.

    As BeeCee so lucidly explained in his guest post a few days back, the two purely military benefits from the Committee of secretaries were the increase in MSP of soldiers to 2000/- and the Army Commander’s salary to Lt Generals, missing out due to age. The rest of the advantages came because they were implemented for the civilians and equivalent military grades also benefited in turn.

  90. Blake September 19, 2008 at 9:25 am #

    @ Prags
    I think that the one plausible solution to it all is for the mid level officers and their men on the field to start refusing extraordinary and superfluous tasks that are assigned by the Bade Sahibs and to start questioning the veracity of such orders. By refusing to follow orders blindly and by finally questioning the relevance of it all, the Top Brass may finally have to show accountability to the boys in the field , and in return have to face the Babus and netas with something less than servile Smiles and Thankyous.

    The other is to spread the word around to all and sundry , by word of mouth , or otherwise , just how pathetic the conditions in the Armed Forces really are , so that the general impression that “Fauj is Mauj ” is discarded. This would obviously furthur sink the strata from which the Officers and military leaders of tommorrow come from, but eventually the nation shall see the difference , one way or the other .

    The third alternative is to meditate and achieve NIrvana. After all, we are in the mountains most of the time !

  91. menon September 19, 2008 at 3:30 pm #

    @ Pragmatic

    88 comments and only two pertinent to the question raised in the blogpost – Any Bright Ideas? Such bankruptcy of ideas!

    Bankruptcy of ideas BUT such apathy to sentiments. The underlying feeling of disgust is quite evident from these posts. And, THAT is the main factor.

    Comment #12 by Prakash:
    U mean to say after 1950 i .e after almost 48 yrs or u can say after third pay commission i.e. after 3 decades somebody has woken up tat the parity amongst service officers and civilians was not right and necessitated relook??

    People did wake up but no conjunction of views could take place. After the 5th Pay commission the mischief was taken to court by Maj Dhanapalan but the bulk of the military was protected from information exchange. The headlines when the SCPC was announced said “Pay Bonanza for the Armed Forces’. 10 years ago this would have been lumped since it would have been followed up by some news clippings and one fine day the poor bloody army man would have got his pay slip and life would have gone on. Not any more. By the evening of the release of the SCPC report most govt. employees had got onto the web and studied the report thread bare. There was no fooling them. The Armed forces have in the past brought up these instances degradation but they were isolated and scattered news reports. Collating them was not feasible. Today the editorials of the Tribune or the Telegraph or Times or Indian Express can be accesses by anyone in Thiruvananthapuram. In the days of yore the Kolkata chap had to be content with the content of the ‘hard copy’ of the Telegraph and if he wanted to discuss it with his likes in Delhi he would have to book an STD where he would be reminded that 3 minutes are up.

    It is the other way around. The government increased the grade pay of many civilian grades, including the S-21 and S-22. Since a Lt Colonel was deemed equal to S-21, his or her grade pay was also increased to the 7600/-.

    Very misleading. Navdeep in his blog has brought out the relative pay of a Lt Col vis-à-vis a SE and the subsequent degradation in the SCPC.

    Pragmatic is on a ‘brief hiatus’ and in come Howler and Taxpayer and feed in decoys. If not shot down these would be quoted as facts. Pragmatic returns and the logic of SCPC seem to be subtly ratified since replies to the diversions from MES, BSF and the Taxpayer busied the post. Fishy?

    A Blog reveals the latent misgivings of a group and it is very evident that the military is pissed off by the inflictions of the Bureaucrats.

    A BANKRUPTCY OF IDEAS – MAYBE, BUT, A FLOOD OF EMOTIONS –YES. DANGEROUS
    I do wish the 6th CPC had been more systematic and followed something like this for the Armed Forces and the Bureaucrats (especially the Accountability Profile for the bureaucrats).

    SENIOR OFFICER BENCHMARK REVIEW STUDY
    1. Why is this important to our organization?
    To substantiate equitable pay relativity between the CF and PS with respect to compensation for senior officers in comparison to their PS counterparts.
    2. What is the purpose of this initiative?
    The purpose is to update current understandings of the nature of work being performed by the various Senior Officers and to compare that work to work being performed by other senior officials in the public sector.
    3. What is meant by a discrete role?
    While the study will cover all discrete roles, it will not necessarily involve every General and Colonel. Certain roles are essentially the same in different locations (e.g. Brigade Commander), and it is not necessary to evaluate them all. In these cases, we will work with a random sample. However, we will be collecting APs for each role. We will then use the profiles in establishing the size of the sample for evaluation purposes. We anticipate looking at up to 290 discrete roles; although, the final number may be slightly higher or lower depending on the number of discrete roles identified.
    4. What is an Accountability Profile (AP)?
    An AP is a short and concise description of a position, presented in a structured manner, that contains all of the information necessary to evaluate the position using the Hay Guide Chart method. The template for the AP is contained in Annex B of the Writing Guide.
    5. What is the process for completing the questionnaire?
    The questionnaires will be forwarded electronically to each individual along with comprehensive instructions on how they should be completed. Support will be available from Hay Consultants via an e-mail or a telephone “help desk”. The initial draft will be forwarded to the immediate superior Officer for validation / modification. When completed and validated, the documents will be submitted electronically to Hay where they will be further reviewed for completeness of the required information.
    6. What if I do not have time to complete an AP?
    It is preferable that you complete your own job description profile, since you are in the best position to understand the demands and expectations of your position. However if this task should be delegated, then the OPI may avail themselves of the support services described above. It is imperative for the success of this exercise that we have accurate and complete information.
    7. Why do I need to forward my AP through my chain of command?
    Senior leadership has final accountability for the profiles. They will ensure that the profiles also reflect the management perception of the role. They are in the best position to discuss any differences in viewpoint and to ensure an appropriate degree of consistency between the profiles of all of their direct reports.
    8. I’m completing the “Dimensions” portion of the AP and I don’t know the value of the payroll for the military personnel under my command. Where do I find that information?
    Don’t worry too much on the exact values in this section. All that is required is rough order of magnitude numbers. Much of the data required in the Dimensions portion of the AP should be found in the Business Plan.
    9. Why might I be contacted?
    Some individuals will be contacted in order to clarify the contents of a particular AP. This will happen in rare cases when information does not seem to capture the essence of the job in relation to similar jobs at the same level.
    10. Who may I contact with further questions?
    All questions concerning the mandate and organization of the project should be addressed to the Directorate Pay Policy Development (DPPD) team. The DPPD team will also answer questions dealing with special cases related to the organization. For example, someone wondering whether or not to list accountabilities that they have taken on, rather than ones that are specifically attached to the job. DPPD Team Contacts – Maj Bull – (613) 996-0061/ Bull.GM@forces.ca , PO2 Rae – (613) 995-5917 All questions regarding the actual content of the AP (e.g. How should I word the following specific accountability) may be addressed to the Hay Help Desk Shelley Guilfoyle (613) 238-4785/ Shelley_Guilfoyle@haygroup.com EST: 0900-1700 hrs. Ms. Guilfoyle will attempt to answer all questions immediately or refer them to another individual for a rapid response.
    11. Why are we using the Hay Guide Chart Profile method?
    The Hay Guide Chart-Profile method is the standard employed for the Public Service EX group and is the most widely used methodology for evaluating senior level positions in the world. Using it will allow us to compare using the same standard employed by the Treasury Board.
    12. What about MLOC and other field training that may not happen very regularly?
    Working conditions is one of the factors being considered in the APs. If MLOC training is required for the position, then it should be mentioned under working conditions. You will notice that working conditions emphasize frequency, intensity and duration. Please make sure the frequency and duration of such experiences is clearly indicated. Keep in mind, that for EX positions the weighting attributed to Working Conditions will be minimal – you’re not being paid to be a diver, a pilot, a sniper, etc. To be crude – there’s no money here.

    Overview of the Hay Method
    The Hay Guide Chart-Profile Method of Position Evaluation is the most widely used method of work measurement and role valuation in the world. It is used by more than 5,000 private and public sector organizations for the evaluation of all types and levels of jobs. Two recent studies in specific areas of the world validate the above information. The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development in the UK found that 78% of organizations in the UK that use proprietary job evaluation systems use Hay. A Towers Perrin study revealed that 75% of all large private sector organizations in Europe use Hay evaluation for some of their jobs. Similar data could be developed for North America.

    The system continues to evolve (as it always has), with client input, in response to changes in the environment such as pay equity legislation, the increasing use of technology in the workplace, and evolving ways of organizing work. It is used to support organization analysis and role design and to underpin grading and banding and can be customized to specific client and work culture requirements. The basic, underlying concepts have stood the test of time quite simply because they are so universal. They provide a framework to sort positions in an equitable manner.

    The focus of the job evaluation process using the Hay Method is on the nature and the requirements of the job itself, not on the skills, educational background, personal characteristics, or the current salary of the person holding the job.

    The Hay Method is based on the idea that jobs can be assessed in terms of the knowledge required to do the job, the thinking needed to solve the problems commonly faced the responsibilities assigned, and the working conditions associated with the job.

    The Hay Method is comprised of four “Guide Charts” which are used to define each factor and to provide quantitative measures, which form the basis for evaluation. The four factors used by Hay are as follows:

    Know-How

    This Guide Chart measures the total of every kind of knowledge and skill, however acquired, needed for acceptable job performance. It consists of three dimensions:

    practical procedures and knowledge, specialized techniques, and learned skills;
    the real or conceptual planning, co-ordinating, directing, and controlling of activities and resources associated with an organizational unit or function; and,
    Active, practicing, person-to-person skills in the area of human relationships.
    Problem Solving

    This Guide Chart measures the thinking required in the job by considering two dimensions:

    the environment in which the thinking takes place; and,
    the challenge presented by the thinking to be done.
    Accountability

    This Guide Chart measures the relative degree to which the job, performed competently, can affect the end results of the organization or of a unit within the organization. It reflects the level of decision-making and influence of the job through consideration, in the following order of importance, of:

    the nature of the controls that limit or extend the decision-making or influence of the job;
    the immediacy of the influence of the job on a unit or function of the organization; and,
    the magnitude of the unit or function most clearly affected by the job.
    Working Conditions

    This Guide Chart measures the conditions under which the job is performed by considering:

    Physical Effort, which measures the degree of physical fatigue that, results from the combination of intensity, duration, and frequency of any kind of physical activity required in the job.
    Physical Environment, which measures the physical discomfort or the risk of accident or ill health which results from the combination of intensity, duration, and frequency of exposure, in the job, to unavoidable physical and environmental factors.
    Sensory Attention, which measures the intensity, duration, and frequency of the demand, in the job, for concentration using one or more of the five senses.
    Mental Stress, which measures the degree of such things as tension or anxiety which result from the combination of intensity, duration, and frequency of exposure to factors, inherent in the work process or environment, which would typically cause stress to someone reasonably suited to the job.
    By focussing on the important aspects of the content of each job, the end results which each is expected to achieve, and the conditions under which the work is performed, the Hay Method provides a vehicle for systematically assessing the relationships among the various positions and determining their relative value.


    Second, was the edge given to the services in the Third CPC due to the SDA. If yes and if the MSP replaces it, that edge has to go. You can’t have the edge and the MSP. It is also on services’ own request for an MSP and equivalence of status. I think this is the argument that is hard to refute and unless the services develop a logic to counter this, not much headway will be made with the Cabinet on this subject.

    SDA, MSP etc are nothing but the X Factor which is supposed to give the serviceman an edge for his work environment. You cannot give him that edge factor and yet keep the final payout the same.
    If we do talk of the SDA etc why are we not on rectifying the anomaly of pay fixation in the 4th PC and then refixing the grades. Have we let that mischievious act be condoned. The Court has already faulted the 4th Pay Commission for this and directed rectification in the case of Maj Dhanapalan.Pay Commission

    UK ARMED FORCES PAY REVIEW BODY 35 TH REPORT 2006

    X-Factor

    1. UK last reviewed the level of X-Factor for their 2003 Report. They concluded that the Services remained disadvantaged compared to civilians and that there had been a slight increase in that disadvantage but not sufficient to raise the level of X-Factor. Since 2003, they have used their visits to explore with personnel how Service life has changed and whether this impacts on X-Factor considerations. In summary, they were repeatedly told that the level of X-Factor no longer reflected the growing disadvantages of Service life.
    Personnel felt that X-Factor did not adequately reflect the disadvantages, specifically the “step change” in separation levels arising from increased operational commitments and the continuing effects of turbulence, notably the implications for spouse employment, home ownership and access to public services. In addition, personnel considered that those aspects of Service life which have been positive elements of the X-Factor have been eroded since increased operational pressures now allow fewer opportunities for adventure training and sport.

    2. In oral evidence, the PPOs told them that they perceived a shift in the balance, with
    disadvantages outweighing the advantages compared to civilian life and that X-Factor
    needed to better reflect “modern” Service life. The Secretary of State and the PPOs
    emphasised that operational commitments, separation and turbulence affected all
    personnel whether deployed or in supporting roles. They added that the package
    provided appropriate support for those on operations through Separation Allowances
    and the Operational Welfare Package.

    3. As they said in 2003, they consider X-Factor should be reviewed every five years in order to capture changes and trends. Their next review will therefore be for our 2008 Report. As no change was made after the 2003 interim review, they will examine trends back to 2000. In preparation for that review, they intend to commission scoping research which will provide a basis for assessing the advantages and disadvantages of “modern” Service and civilian life, the coverage of elements within X-Factor and the differing levels of X-Factor for various groups. They have also asked their Secretariat to discuss the appropriate evidence base with MOD and, for the longer term, the management information that will be available from JPA.

  92. Pragmatic September 19, 2008 at 3:53 pm #

    @Menon:

    Very misleading. Navdeep in his blog has brought out the relative pay of a Lt Col vis-à-vis a SE and the subsequent degradation in the SCPC.

    The government did not increase the grade pay of a Lt Col and then also did it for S-21 and S-22. It was vice versa. That was my point about a specific query raised by Prakash. Navdeep’s post doesn’t even touch this aspect.

    SDA, MSP etc are nothing but the X Factor which is supposed to give the serviceman an edge for his work environment. You cannot give him that edge factor and yet keep the final payout the same.

    The final payout is not the same if you include the MSP. That is the point made by SCPC. Edge of SDA removed and replaced by MSP. How do you counter that?

    Bankruptcy of ideas BUT such apathy to sentiments. The underlying feeling of disgust is quite evident from these posts. And, THAT is the main factor.

    An outpouring of emotions won’t help. Rants and harangues are fine to vent the frustration but one needs hard facts and cold logic to win such cases. Else the services will continue to be treated the way they have been in the last four CPCs.

  93. menon September 19, 2008 at 7:17 pm #

    @ Pragmatic
    Why don’t you understand that a Lt Col is now brought down by Rs 14000 in comparison to comparative grades pre SCPC and post SCPC, before review? Also, most Army officers will remain in the Lt Cols pay Band of PB3 whereas those who were below him now go into PB4 and slide 39400 to 67000 whereas he is stuck at 39200 (max of PB3). MSP or no MSP he will retire on fewer pensions and take home benefits. How do you explain that? I again say that MSP is that extra for the work environment and not a bargaining chip. Equate minus MSP or else the MSP looses it purpose. Savvy? Will the Pay commission remove MSP, the bone of contention, and put Maj & Lt Cols into PB4.

  94. menon September 19, 2008 at 7:27 pm #

    @ Pragmatic
    Incidentally it is the ‘rants and harangues’ that make men go over the top. Hard facts and cold logic is the end result which I (I) have not seen.

  95. Pragmatic September 19, 2008 at 8:18 pm #

    @Menon #93:

    …in comparison to comparative grades pre SCPC and post SCPC…

    The operative word is comparative grades. The SCPC’s logic (not mine) is to compare them without the edge provided in the 3rd CPC. The below him, equal to him pre-SCPC, is with that edge, which has now been replaced by MSP.

    Equate minus MSP or else the MSP looses it purpose.

    Exactly that is what the SCPC claims to do. Equate without the MSP and the edge provided for the earlier version of the MSP, the SDA.

    Will the Pay commission remove MSP, the bone of contention, and put Maj & Lt Cols into PB4.

    There in lies the tragedy of the services. They harp on the X-factor and the MSP without going into the details. I have also heard often that the edge in pay to the military officers was historically given over other civil services, for no rhyme or reason. There was a reason, which the service headquarters and their pay commission cells never went into and made a case which has finally come to hit the majority of service officers hard. Can they go back on their demand now? I wonder if they have the magnanimity to acknowledge their faults and eat their own words.

    Thus you need hard facts and cold logic, not rants and harangues, while dealing with serious issues.

  96. Barking Dog September 19, 2008 at 8:28 pm #

    @ Menon

    Will the Pay commission remove MSP, the bone of contention, and put Maj & Lt Cols into PB4.

    Why you are doing injustice to Lt and capt after all they are also commissioned officers? Should they not be put in same category as Lt Col (PB-4) after all they are performing same work as that by Lt Col ?

  97. Maverick September 19, 2008 at 9:01 pm #

    @ Barking Dog
    Let me tell u that many faujis would gladly face the animal rights fellows post terminating you.
    Dont degrade the Lt Col rank. You would be surprised that most Lt Cols are still doing the same job as was prior AVSC.
    Dont begrudge others. Live and let live. What we are fighting for is our legitimate right. and by the way @menon is right, cold logic has no place in this debate and this can be won only with the emotional support of the common indian (anyone thinking votes…… he is right)

  98. Deepak September 19, 2008 at 10:03 pm #

    @ barking dog…

    lets put all clerks into IAS DIRECTORs chair and PB as they do the same work ….clear files or rather do babugiri..
    Deepak

  99. drp September 19, 2008 at 10:30 pm #

    @ taxpayer

    well said Taxpayer – innovative ideas I hope some one in authority is taking note of the plunder of taxpayers’ money as explained by you –

    “(a) 20 years back Lt Col was a select post and so was SE (director). A regiment used to be commanded by a Lt Col as brought out by howler. First this post was down graded in 1985 when the command was upgraded from a Lt Col to full Col. Second time, it was again down graded by AVSC , which downgraded it further to make it a non select time scale post to be attained by every officer irrespective of merit and competence after period of 13 years.
    So effectively now Lt Col post now stand down graded by two rank to a rank and stature that of a Capt. However the pay, perks and WoP (which every one keep on quoting) remained unchanged. so despite of such downgradation of Lt Col to a rank of a capt , you are still equating Lt Col (who is now performing work of a capt) with that of a director (which are attained by IAS officers only after their one tenure as district collectors.)
    SCPC not only corrected these two issues but also maintained the finaicial advantge of armed forces intact through MSP.

    This has been very correctly brounght out by howler.

    Rather than fighting with the govt. for the grant for PB-4 for Lt Col the correct approach would be to abolish one rank either of Capt or Maj or Lt Col (as armed forces have been repeatedly told by ministry and govt. to reduce one rank and bring down the no. of levels in forces at par with that of civil services) and follow civil services pattern for grant of JAG and NFSG to their officers, rather than time scale business of doing self goal through AVSC I and II.

    (2) From taxpayer’s point of view huge recurring loss of public money by posting of senior army officers in doing jobs of junior civil posts where no military training is required (when there is already huge shortage of officers in army)in civil organizations like MES, GREF, DGQA, etc. must be stopped at the earliest.”

  100. menon September 19, 2008 at 10:34 pm #

    @ Maverick
    Such posts by Barking dog, Howler etc do pop up so that the ‘rants and harangues’ come in and then you are diverted from the topic of ‘cold logic’.

    @ Pragmatic

    In the determination of pay structure for the Armed Forces, starting from constitution of the Post War Pay Committee in 1947 which for the first time attempted to establish relative parameters in reference to Indian Police Service (IPS) and the Central Class I Services but also brought down the pay scales of many Indian Commissioned Officers.

    The Government subsequently modified pay structure for Armed Forces in 1960 when the Raghuramaiya Committee endorsed the concept of parity with the above referred services as conceived earlier.

    In fact the Raghuramaiya Committee endorsed the parity but today this parity does not exist. A 28 year Maj Gen is at par with a 14 year IAS officer. Why don’t we talk of that?
    The pay structure for Army was for the first time referred to the Central Pay Commission (CPC) in the third PC. Thereafter subsequent Central Pay Commissions have have buggered the Armed forces. The Third CPC recommended merger of the Special Disturbance Allowance (being paid to army personnel since 1950 as a temporary compensatory measure) with the pay. THERE WAS NO EDGE BY THE SDA BEING PAID FROM 1950. IF THERE WAS AN EDGE THEN THE 1960 COMMITTEE WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO REVISE PAY SCALES. The SDA was paid since 1950 yet the pay scales were lower than the civilians till the Raghuramaiya Committee brought it up in 1960.

    If the SDA was the edge why was the Raghuramaiya Committee set up to bring up the Military pay scales when the SDA was being paid? There is no edge. Why don’t you understand? Please calculate and compare the service to take home salary and service to pension amount between the Armed forces and the Civilians. The civilian is better off. Just by harping on MSP replacing SDA and then lowering the status you have not done any pay revision. Are you trying to tell me that in the 8th Pay Commission the PC will tell an SE that in the SCPC he was given an edge by putting him in PB4 so he should be downgraded? Will he buy that?
    The Fourth CPC accepted the demand for running pay bands and rank pay up to the scale of Brigadier, but the structure was subsequently re-altered by Fifth CPC which mischievously fixed the new scale without the rank pay. The SCPC also faulted because of the fixation in the 5th PC which has been corrected by a court order ONLY in the case of Maj Dhanapalan. Let this error be rectified and then refit grades and arrears. Why go back in history only up to the 3rd PC why not the pre 1947 scales of civil vs. Army? Why fix pay scales of the Armed forces with civilan pay scales when the work environment is different?

    The SCPC has brought down the Lt Cols status vis-à-vis other civilians and the SDA is being cited as the degradation qualifying factor. Pragmatic????????????????????????

    Pragmatic pl do read Robert Palacios and Edward Whitehouse on Civil Service pension Schemes around the world and gen up on how the Babus in India have looked after themselves. This is a report by the World Bank with inputs from the RBI. I had sent the link in one of my earlier posts.

  101. menon September 19, 2008 at 10:48 pm #

    @ drp

    Well said. Reminds me of some grade II staff sitting on the lawns well after lunch time not doing his job and whiling away his time in idle gossip.

    Why don’t we do away with all ranks? Just have one rank – General. STUPIDITY. I sincerely feel we should have lost the 71 ops and let the Chinese cut off NE in 62. You guys don’t deserve an Armed force. India was under foreign rule because of people with your mentality. Let J&K go to Pakis and if they want to come any further you guys are there to open the gates of the forts. Indian History is full of examples of your breed.

    PS: Pragmatic : Sometimes rants are required to let these type of jokers know what we feel. Imagine discussing pay scales with this man who wants to abolish ranks. Comrade is a good term.

  102. fhy September 19, 2008 at 10:57 pm #

    @ Menon

    “Please calculate and compare the service to take home salary and service to pension amount between the Armed forces and the Civilians. The civilian is better off.”

    “How untrue !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I hope you have read barking dog -

    “The salary drawn by any army/ air force / navy officer is more than Rs. 16000/- per month even at the entry level than an IAS/ civil service officer. This is as under :-
    (Monthly average figures)

    (a) MSP- Rs. 6000/- +DA 16 % – = 7000
    (b) Free Ration = 1000
    (c) House Rent Subsidy = 1500
    (d) Free Electricity = 500
    (e) Canteen Benefits = 500
    (f) Travel Concessions = 1000
    (g) Free Transport for children = 500
    (h) Free Air Courier = 2000
    (j) Other misc allowances = 2000
    Total 16000/-

    In addition, there are area specific and situation specific allowances, Qualification allowances etc. There are benefits like counting of MSP for pension etc.. There are other perks like quality life in cantts, Messes, officers institutes. etc- which have no equal in Civil services life.

    No civil services can match them.

    Still it is spread through media that forces have been short charged by SCPC and CoS?

    who can believe it , except fools?”

    dear menon,

    rather than posting blogs here get nine pointers so that you may get PB-4 and get danda too and hope for jhanda in next few years. you are not permanently relegated to the post of Lt Col as you show so much concern for this rank.

    you may get danda and jhanda in near future. All the best.

  103. Pragmatic September 19, 2008 at 11:12 pm #

    @Menon #100:

    …but also brought down the pay scales of many Indian Commissioned Officers.

    And who initiated the proposal. The KCOs headed by the first C-in-C, Cariappa.

    The SDA was paid since 1950 yet the pay scales were lower than the civilians till the Raghuramaiya Committee brought it up in 1960.

    That is exactly what the SCPC is saying. An edge was given by the Third CPC.

    If the SDA was the edge why was the Raghuramaiya Committee set up to bring up the Military pay scales when the SDA was being paid? There is no edge.

    The SDA was removed by the third CPC and the edge provided in the basic pay.

    The SCPC has brought down the Lt Cols status vis-à-vis other civilians and the SDA is being cited as the degradation qualifying factor.

    Only opinions, no facts or logic to prove the statement. Amidst all this, the facts that you have cited only strengthen the case made by the SCPC. I just hope that the services are not making the same arguments.

    About pensions, length of service etc, the XLRI study with the SCPC is the latest and most authentic document. There are other reports by the PFRDA, Mukul Asher etc. but they have no relation to the argument put forth by the SCPC about SDA, MSP et al and how the status was fixed. They are a different subject by themselves.

    I also think that we are not progressing any further with this as no genuine ideas to counter the SCPC arguments have come forth so far. I rest my case.

    #101 PS: Pragmatic : Sometimes rants are required to let these type of jokers know what we feel.

    I beg to differ. Not every comment deserves a response!

  104. HOWLER September 20, 2008 at 1:38 am #

    Whatever the SCPC logic is.The point that is being missed is, why is it that the services demands are not finding favour with anyone. SCPC already rejected them to be too unrealistic. The same happened when the committee of secretaries reviewd them. The cabinet finally considered them only to the extent reasonable to maintain the equilibrium.The fellow govt servants are opposing these demands tooth and nail. The other citizens of the country are convinced they dont deserve any more that what they have got or they are simply unconcerned. There isnt even a single informed person on the globe, who is buying the logic behind these demands! (Except menonji ofcourse! he seems to have arrogated to himself all the responsibility of putting forth a illogical case in their support based on half truths and selective interpretations. Remember the Don Quixote story? isnt he reborn and goes by the name of menon on the blogosphere? He goes flashing his sword in the darkness of ignorance and half truths sitting on a lame horse.)
    Earlier, every one had some soft corner for the services and went along despite knowing the demands they were making were totally unjustified. The days of the military being revered as the holy cows are over. For the first time, in the context of the SCPC, they are being treated like the professionals and thats why people are loathe to giving them even a single penny extra than their worth. There has been a considerable interest in the masses, and hence consequent awareness, regarding the military issues in the country. What they are, what they do and what they are getting. The military can no longer get away selling some concocted emotional trash as they had been doing in the past. Thats why there is opposition to what they are being given. People are asking the justifications for what the country is paying them. Any argument put forward by the services makes a poor justification for these demands.
    Merely running nonsensical propaganda stories in the media in support of their demands cuts no ice. They went even to the extent of roping in bollywood dollies for the purpose.Remember images of them gyrating to some stupid song with these men in uniform at some so called frward location! Whatever they may have hopd to achieve, it was just a propaganda overkill. Atleast when it is also a known fact that CPMFs are on these forward locations 24×7 without break. But did you see them advertising there deeds so prepostrously! Did you hear any other group of govt servants induldging in this shameful act? Is that the stuff professionals are made of? Is that the reason they should be paid more? Certainly it defies logic, SCPC or anything else.
    Its no point projecting yourself as a holy cow thats world apart. the manner in which you have reacted to the SCPC and more importantly to the govt decisions, there is no distinction between you and other motley groups
    of slogan shouting/striking govt servants, whom you like to refer as civilians! Where is the difference between the thought to not to accept pay commmisssion notification and or not to implement it vis-a-vis the open defiance of the govt authority. All these despite, getting the largest pay packet and most liberal allowances in the country when there are people doing much more crucial hard work than you, i.e. the CPMFs.
    But as they say, a lie repeated a 1000 times appears to be true.

  105. menon September 20, 2008 at 7:46 am #

    @ fhy
    Only a fool would believe what barking dogs yelp and quote it too.

  106. menon September 20, 2008 at 8:06 am #

    @ Howler
    Join in.
    Just because you can’t comprehend, it does not mean that there exists no case. Why don’t you be like Pragmatic? Retire hurt rather than writing gibberish.
    The non supporters in this blog are those who are from the Babudom. This is the ideal time for guys like you to run down the military. Happens in all organisations. And, those who do not support the restoration of the rightful place of the military are they who earn on the sidelines. How else can you guys accept such cooked up data given by a barking dog? SDA was a component of pay and that is why even though it was implemented in 1950 it gave no edge over civilian salaries. The raise came in 1960 and it was not the SDA that made the difference. Some time ago DA was merged with salary pending SCPC. Can that be taken as an edge?
    Now you are back to inciting the PMF to fight the case. Typical of you guys.
    We don’t want to be the holy cow waiting to be slaughtered. In fact you guys are converting us into slogan shouting civilians like you. The next step may be mafias.

  107. Maverick September 20, 2008 at 9:45 am #

    @ Howler
    The days of the military being revered as the holy cows are over. For the first time, in the context of the SCPC, they are being treated like the professionals and thats why people are loathe to giving them even a single penny extra than their worth. There has been a considerable interest in the masses, and hence consequent awareness, regarding the military issues in the country. What they are, what they do and what they are getting. The military can no longer get away selling some concocted emotional trash as they had been doing in the past. Thats why there is opposition to what they are being given. People are asking the justifications for what the country is paying them. Any argument put forward by the services makes a poor justification for these demands.

    Howler – Do you think the public has willingly given you and your ilk the scpc raise? no. in fact it was you who have decided what is to be given to whom.
    You guys have alloted yourself the only one right which the politicians rightly have – being the representative of the masses. Dont think that you have the right to judge us. The civilian control can probably mean the control by political bosses, but certainly we can’t give you (babus) the right to decide our future.
    By the way, the PM had told in the Red Fort address, that the max had been given to armed and PMF. Sad, Its true in case of PMF only and that too becoz they are with MHA. Had they been equated with military in the past, the same fate would have befallen on them.
    And one last thing, this is the reason that the chiefs have decided to approach the cabinet rather than the anomalies committee.

  108. Pragmatic September 20, 2008 at 10:08 am #

    @Menon #106:

    Why don’t you be like Pragmatic? Retire hurt rather than writing gibberish.

    Sadly, I am provoked to rise to the bait. This breaks my usual approach which is to not respond to fundamentalists: that’s to say, anyone who says “That’s it, it is known; shut up and don’t argue.”

    Once I’ve made the point clearly and no one is adding any value to it, I’d rather let the monkeys on my key board rest. If this gives you happiness, I am satisfied that I made at least one guy happier today. Period.

  109. AAB September 20, 2008 at 12:51 pm #

    @ ALL

    The XLRI study takes only the positives?? into account and it says that the CTC is four times the basic pay.
    There is a study by CDM which takes many positives and only a few of the many negatives of service life into account and as per that the MSP should have been 50-70% of basic pay.
    I think the truth is somewhere inbetween.
    The various perks enumerated by somebody amount to 16000/- more than the civilians but he/she doesnt monetise all the negatives of service life.
    The Indian Airforce is the only aviation organisation where pilots pay for their own life insurance while doing the Govt’s job flying old aircraft. So is the case with Army and Navy.
    There are many more anamolies in the service conditions, which,if taken up, would only demoralise the forces and hence the refrain.
    If we use only cold logic, fact wise, then what some people say may appear to be true but when you look at the whole picture, applied to a large number of armymen/women, you may realise the truth.
    What we should do is let a professional agency do the audit of all pay commissions and come out with the anamolies.

  110. AAB September 20, 2008 at 1:42 pm #

    @ Pragmatic and all other Sundry sceptics

    Any views on this anamoly?
    What about all those who lost out till now.
    I know a paraplegic fauji.
    This is the apathy of the crafty Babus.
    It was acceptd by the armed forcs because the JCOs and below were benefited by this formula at the cost of officers.
    The Armymen/women are busy with their primary task and dont bother about these minor details with full faith in their seniors and the Government to give them a fair deal. There is lack of awareness about the benefits given / rather taken by the babus for themselves over the years.
    I think there is a need to appoint a Professional Agency to ferret out these anamolies from the myriad rules/ memorandums/ resolutions and make it known that the so called advantage GIVEN to the Army is actually a sham.

    The senior-most bureaucrat, the cabinet secretary, and the three service chiefs have been traditionally placed in the same pay grade. But were they to be disabled in service, the compensatory pension for the cabinet secretary was four times more that those for men in uniform. The situation was similar down the line except for the lowest ranks.

    The wide disparity existing in the rates of disability pension admissible to military and civilian employees is now set to charge with a few formula introduced by the Sixth Pay Commission for grant of disability pension to armed forces personnel.

    The Sixth Pay Commission has directed that the disability element of the pension for armed forces personnel would be a fixed percentage of the basic pay, similar to the system followed for civilian employees. It would be 30 per cent of basic pay for 100 per cent disability, with a minimum of Rs 3,100 as the disability element for 100 per cent disability.

    The percentage would be lower for lesser disability and this is still to be worked out. There would be a different percentage system for calculation of disability element in case of operational or war injuries.

    Prior to the Sixth Pay Commission, if a service chief got disabled, he would have got a maximum of only Rs 2,600 as disability pension, whereas his counterpart, the cabinet secretary, would have got around Rs 10,000.

    Till now there had been fixed amounts of disability pension for armed forces personnel, with a maximum of Rs 2,600 for officers, Rs 1,900 for JCOs and Rs 1,500 for other ranks. Civilian employees, on the other hand were entitled to 30 per cent of basic pay drawn as 100 per cent disability pension.

    Ex-servicemen had often argued that the earlier meagre rates of disability pension had made it difficult to sustain the livelihood of the injured serviceman and his family. Moreover, it was unconstitutional to fix different rates for similarly placed persons, thereby putting those at higher risk at a disadvantage,” they contended.

    In fact, Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence had earlier taken serious note of the low disability pension being paid to armed forces personnel who were injured while in service. The committee, while seeking suitable revision in the rate of disability pension, had recommended pension equivalent to the last pay drawn in cases of 100 per cent disability.

    The committee had recommended a formula in the cases of disability pension be worked out so as to provide pension-cum-disability pension equal to the last pay drawn to 100 per cent disabled service personnel.

  111. Pragmatic September 20, 2008 at 4:45 pm #

    @AAB:

    In the services, the oft-quoted maxim is “ignorance of orders is no excuse”. The same is valid for the myriad pay commission cells, whose ignorance and unprofessionalism has led to this disadvantageous situation for many disabled officers.Thanks God, the SCPC has set it right. Kudos to them.

  112. ToTheDeath September 20, 2008 at 5:50 pm #

    @ menon

    I’m amazed at the perseverance shown by you against the hostility of them babooze towards you. I salute you. It must be hard to be courteous to blokes who treat the Armed Forces as some sort of an evil that has to be put in its place, whatever the cost to their morale. Is it worth a dime explaining to them what honour means to us? They can never understand what the service does to men and what men do for the honour of the service. It is, simply, beyond them. Sitting in the cool comforts of their office everything is ‘ cold facts and pure logic ‘ for them. What they care about honour who don’t know the worth of honour. That honour which drives men to go beyond themselves, beyond service and even stake their lives on it.
    The only cold facts and pure logic babooze understand is you-scratch-my-back-I-scratch-yours while greedily smacking their lips at the bribe money which brings them their version of honour. Now that terrorists encounters have begun striking the heart of our capital, it’s only a function of time before they wake up from their make-believe world of complacency and face ‘hot’ facts that everything else pales in relation to security. Of course, once it gets out of control for the police then the security will, rather conveniently, be handed over to the Army ( article by V-Adm AK Singh in today’s Deccan Chronicle is worth going through ).
    We, of course, will willingly step in and clear the mess they hand over to us. Not because it is our job but because the nation expects. And we cannot fail the nation for then there shall be no nation left. But do they realize the high stakes involved? Or are they waiting for a 9\11 to take place in the capital before the worth of security forces sinks into their god-blessed skulls? Sometimes I wonder what in heavens name is the game they are playing, straight into the enemy’s hand. Where the ISI failed to defeat and demoralize our forces the footloose babooze are hell-bent on achieving precisely that, come what may. If nothing else, it sure is a reversal of common sense and ‘pure logic’, if you will. Imagine the glee in ISI headquaters at this sudden welcome turn of events – for them, that is! Biting the hand that feeds one is bad enough – biting the hand that guards one is beyond compare, beyond apprehension.

  113. menon September 20, 2008 at 8:34 pm #

    Hats off to the SCPC for setting right the anomaly for disabled servicemen and disabling the able.

    PS: Lovely Saturady – Thanx for making my day!!!!!!! Welcome to the human world – we all get provoked and get hooked by the bait.

  114. voyager September 21, 2008 at 3:22 am #

    @Menon and ALL his adversaries.

    Good job Menon! You’ve put up a spirited defence against an unprecedented onslought of statistics and theory.

    It reminds me of 13 Kumaon’s Last Stand at Chushul, November 18, 1962 (have been there recently, it was -30C in winter). I Quote from an article by Rajeev Srinivasan on rediff (http://in.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/19rajeev.htm)

    I quote…

    “The C company of the 13th Kumaon Battalion, under Major Shaitan Singh (Param Vir Chakra, Posthumous) held off a fierce Chinese attack on November 18, 1962, at the Rezang La heights that they held. Massively outnumbered and outgunned, the defenders died almost to the last man, and expended their last round. All 114 men were killed or wounded. But they succeeded in blunting the Chinese assault, killing as many as a thousand Chinese in the process at Rezang La and at nearby Gurung Hill. Thereafter, the Chinese did not push further towards the Chushul plain. It was a critical checkpoint on a potential Chinese advance on Leh.

    The story of 13th Kumaon is the kind of thing that would make the patriotic Indian stand tall with tears in his eyes. Yet, we do not stand in silence for a moment in memory of Major Shaitan Singh and his gallant men. No poet eulogizes them as Tennyson did the Light Brigade. There is only a small memorial at the site, which says:-

    How can a Man die Better than facing Fearful Odds,
    For the Ashes of His Fathers and the Temples of His Gods…
    To the sacred memory of the Heroes of Rezang La,
    114 Martyrs of 13 Kumaon who fought to the Last Man,
    Last Round, Against Hordes of Chinese on 18 November 1962.
    Built by All Ranks 13th Battalion, The Kumaon Regiment.

    End of Quote.

    To all the others vilifying Menon…

    How many PVCs (or Ashok Chakra) in BSF?
    How many PVCs in MES?
    How many PVCs in IAS?

    How many of you above, who swear by the WoP, doubt that a Lt Col today would NOT do what a Major in 1962 did? Do you know the recent examples or have you only learnt to quote file references to your advantage?

    Would you next want to take away and control our Gallantry Awards too?

    Or would you like to create some equivalent medals for yourselves?

    Please don’t compare Apples and Oranges.
    You do a job and we do a job. Both are vital to the national interest.
    Don’t grudge the soldiers their dues please.

  115. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 21, 2008 at 8:23 am #

    @Pragmatic

    Life is not just based on logic.Mil services is not just a profession.It is about willing sacrifices for the cause.That is why it glorifies heroes & deaths.I know every one in the armed froces does not have that feeling.How ever the majority do believe in sone sort of ideal behavior & look up to people who have sacrificed their lives & even careers.
    Honour was given the pride of place since otherwise how can an officer motivate his men to die in battle.
    Some one will argue that those kinds of battle are over.If that is so let the government publicy announce it & drastically reduce the size of the army & the country will save lot of money.
    Does every one know that crores of services equipment are lying in the open & stand exposed to the vagaries of weather.If proper care is not taken all those equipment will become useless.(& actually they have become useless)
    When people are motivated they will ensure that the equipment is maintained & they work even beyond their lifetime
    Now when the people start feeling that they dont matter any more, they are just not going to be bothered & blame the system for their decay.
    Since this will be systemic ,no one will be able to do any thing about it.
    I did find it as a joke that the auditors never used to audit the military equipment but audit only the spare parts & the fuel.
    I was told that after the tiff between pilots & engineers in the AF, pilots were also expected to some kind of technical checks.Why did the AF have to do it if they had full faith in the technical branch.?
    I do feel that the lower rung of officers are the real cutting edge, & alientaing them is going to have a big economic impact(which will come out only later)
    None of the other organisations have equipment like the services & maintenence/non maintenance of those equipment has a direct economic cost.
    People will now simply say that the equipment does not work & just not try to make it work.
    To cite an example RPVs are the ones who can fly into enemy territory even during peacetime & get valuable information.The pilot of those RPVS has to ensure that the enemy aircraft does not shoot down these aircrafts.If the pilot feels he does not matter (since he will a Capt/Maj) see the effect that will have on the mission.
    This is not some imaginary situation.When a man’s mind is not Ok he can not be expected to function in a proper manner.
    Take the case of fragging which is happening gaian & again.(This ihas started happening in PMFs also )Officer may not do fragging to personnel.He may frag the equipment.
    I am sure while services can not be treated as holy cow , the nation has to recognise the fact that the modern army is equipment heavy & poor maintenance of that will have a heavy economic cost.
    The pay commssion/government has felt that if the people in authority are well looked after (as in the substantial raise for Cols & above) ,they will ensure that the army will be run well.
    This is not true in the world where every one is thinking & comparing.Internet,TV & blogs have changed the way people think & act.
    As a father of 16 year old kid,I know what all changes have happened to the mind.This is true for every one who is exposed to the modern methods of communication.Dont expect the services to be different.
    When i was in the service i never was keen to go to club since it burnt one’s pockets & was also not inclined.How ever I am enjoying my life after retirememnt .I could give much better education to my son & my family could visit the latest shopping mall in town.All because i could choos my place of residence & not live in a tent in the deserts.
    I did that when it was required, since I though this was an honorable profession & the country recognises that.
    Today I earn in one year what the government gave me as retirement benefits for the compalte service life.

    I am certainly not asking my son to join the services.(he is a topper in every thing be it acedemics,sports,music,languages etc) since i feel he will be wasting his life in the services & focrced to fight for his dignity (& decent pay ) every day with people who have no conecpt of any value system & feeling for the cause.I am a trained GTO & my son would have been a good officer(because of his capabilities & nothing else)
    I hope this logic will not be taken as rhetoric & taken as real life logic.There will be thousands of othere who feel the same today.All modern management techniques stresses on case studies & not just statistics.
    Every one has to relaise that while we need good planners (read Cols & above) we do need some one to execute those plans (read Lt Col & below).
    Unlike other organisations army is much more team work than one can imagine.

  116. Taxpayer September 21, 2008 at 8:33 am #

    @voyager

    public is made to believe by pr machinery of forces as if whole of armed forces are sitting on the border in the face of enemy in in hospitable tarrain and sub zero temperatures, waiting to kill or get killed 24/7 with thier finger on the trigger. what about 400 army / air/ navy forces stations in the country where you spent most of the time of your service. The quality and comfort of your life (which is incidently paid and sponsored by civilian taxpayers) is just not available to any civil services. All this propoganda for what – to get maximum from pay commission and govt. vis a vis civil services. Actually it is the para military froces who are manning most of the border except in J & K and at China Border. But all the credit is being cornered by defence froces.

    Armed forces should not forget that they have been created by civilized society for a specific role. If you feel that politicians and bureaucrates (who are mandated to govern the country by constitution and by public after every five years general election) are not doing enough. No one is preventing you to leave armed froces and join ploitics to become Prime minister and grant to forces what ever you feel is justified. However as long as you are donning the uniform , the acts as we have seen after the pay commission only degardes your defined role before your paymaster (taxpayers and civil society through govt and parliament). You must not forget that all your feebies are being paid by tax payer – whether it is your free eduction and training at NDA/IMA and other cources in india and abroad or your free ration, free booze, MSP and pay and your pension. You must feel relieved that you don’t have to worry about your outputs as are same not tangible like that in a profit makingmaking organisation/ PSU.

    Howler has very correctly brought out the truth as under-

    “Whatever the SCPC logic is.The point that is being missed is, why is it that the services demands are not finding favour with anyone. SCPC already rejected them to be too unrealistic. The same happened when the committee of secretaries reviewd them. The cabinet finally considered them only to the extent reasonable to maintain the equilibrium.The fellow govt servants are opposing these demands tooth and nail. The other citizens of the country are convinced they dont deserve any more that what they have got or they are simply unconcerned. There isnt even a single informed person on the globe, who is buying the logic behind these demands! (Except menonji ofcourse! he seems to have arrogated to himself all the responsibility of putting forth a illogical case in their support based on half truths and selective interpretations. Remember the Don Quixote story? isnt he reborn and goes by the name of menon on the blogosphere? He goes flashing his sword in the darkness of ignorance and half truths sitting on a lame horse.)
    Earlier, every one had some soft corner for the services and went along despite knowing the demands they were making were totally unjustified. The days of the military being revered as the holy cows are over. For the first time, in the context of the SCPC, they are being treated like the professionals and thats why people are loathe to giving them even a single penny extra than their worth. There has been a considerable interest in the masses, and hence consequent awareness, regarding the military issues in the country. What they are, what they do and what they are getting. The military can no longer get away selling some concocted emotional trash as they had been doing in the past. Thats why there is opposition to what they are being given. People are asking the justifications for what the country is paying them. Any argument put forward by the services makes a poor justification for these demands.
    Merely running nonsensical propaganda stories in the media in support of their demands cuts no ice. They went even to the extent of roping in bollywood dollies for the purpose.Remember images of them gyrating to some stupid song with these men in uniform at some so called frward location! Whatever they may have hopd to achieve, it was just a propaganda overkill. Atleast when it is also a known fact that CPMFs are on these forward locations 24×7 without break. But did you see them advertising there deeds so prepostrously! Did you hear any other group of govt servants induldging in this shameful act? Is that the stuff professionals are made of? Is that the reason they should be paid more? Certainly it defies logic, SCPC or anything else.
    Its no point projecting yourself as a holy cow thats world apart. the manner in which you have reacted to the SCPC and more importantly to the govt decisions, there is no distinction between you and other motley groups
    of slogan shouting/striking govt servants, whom you like to refer as civilians! Where is the difference between the thought to not to accept pay commmisssion notification and or not to implement it vis-a-vis the open defiance of the govt authority. All these despite, getting the largest pay packet and most liberal allowances in the country when there are people doing much more crucial hard work than you, i.e. the CPMFs.
    But as they say, a lie repeated a 1000 times appears to be true.”

    so think it over and relax.

  117. ToTheDeath September 21, 2008 at 8:48 am #

    @ Taxpayer

    So funny! Amused.

  118. menon September 21, 2008 at 9:22 am #

    @ Taxpayer

    public is made to believe by pr machinery of forces as if whole of armed forces are sitting on the border in the face of enemy in inhospitable terrain and sub zero temperatures, waiting to kill or get killed 24/7 with their finger on the trigger.
    AND
    Actually it is the para military forces who are manning most of the border except in J & K and at China Border.

    A case for grant of disability allowance for the likes of Taxpayer is necessary.
    Poor chap he still loves nature despite what it has done to him.

    I think he also believes in insulting the intelligence of the Average Indian by trying to hoodwink them with such crap. The Indian is quite aware that J&K, Arunachal and China borders are where you experience freezing temperatures and inhospitable terrain. Not the well connected Bangladesh border or in the plains of Punjab or Rajasthan. Before ops the Border Outposts are reorganized and beefed up by the Army.
    For this man a.k.a Taxpayer who can never imagine the terrain and would never go there since he feel like a tiger manning this blog post, I would recommend that he watches ‘Vertical Limit’ where he can at least see what inhospitable terrain means. His intelligence level? Well I have no cure for that – except maybe he should have done a stint in the Army .Phattoo?
    And nothing comes free. The pay, the rations etc. It’s the same in the civil, telephone attendant, peons etc. It is all emoluments by cash or kind.
    But yes, YOU do dole out freebies. Humorous writings. I hope you don’t ask the SCPC to include this stand up laughter sessions in their calculations for emoluments. Barking dog and you come out with such preposterous statements. Howler is a shade better and does sometimes speak some sense.
    Lage Raho Munna Bahi – Kabhi Kabhi we need some diversion and humour from serious discussion. Thanks for providing slapstick comedy.

  119. Maverick September 21, 2008 at 10:35 am #

    @ taxpayer, howler and the ilks,
    had it been not so a serious issue, then i would have been laughing at your writings.
    @ menon – keep up the good work. You are high up there in our esteem in this fight. A true leader. SSB does select the right chaps or atleast they used to.

  120. raj September 21, 2008 at 12:25 pm #

    @ Pragmatic
    I found a very just article on a blogspot regarding the anomilies defence officers are talikng about… if you can counter it

    “1. The civilian officer disputed that Lt Cols were at par with S-25. They like to think that Lt Cols are par with S-23 as the Lt Col’s pay scales less Rank Pay fit ‘within’ the S-23 pay scale. (The starting of S-23 is even lower than the Lt Cols Basic less Rank Pay!) They completely negate factoring into the rank pay for the purpose of finding equivalent pay scales and for that matter inter se seniority. Is there any authority to settle this argument? From an army officer’s perspective, army pay scales were ‘independent’ and can only be translated now to civilian equivalent after adding the rank pay. That would make it equivalent to S-25 (In fact the outer end of army’s scale is superior to even S-25). Equivalence to S-25 seems fair to army officers as Rank Pay was included wherever basic was considered for the purpose of any sort of entitlements. And of course it was part of total pay drawn.

    2. Even the VI Pay Commission has included the Rank Pay for calculating (multiplying by 1.86) the new Basic Pay for army officers who were already drawing the rank pay on 01 Jan 06. But they have fixed grade pay by negating the Rank Pay! Now officers getting promoted in future will have entry pay only on the basis of their grade pay. So the benefit of Rank Pay is there only for now and is set to vanish in future!

    3. While explaining the origins of Rank Pay there is a line in the report that the rank pay was originally carved out of the army pay scales. That was at a time of running pay bands and Rank Pay was it seems to remove the problem of junior ranking officers with more service (increments) getting more pay than senior ranking officers with less increments. So if it was originally carved out of pay scales, how can it not be merged back to pay scales while doing away with the concept of Rank Pay?

    4. As per the Air/Naval Chiefs statement Lt Cols are equivalent to S-25. They are very much including the rank pay for finding equivalent civilian scales. But I suspect that the people who really matter in this argument are civilian bureaucrats who don’t seem to think so.

    5. If Rank pay is not to be counted within basic then how do you compensate for rank pay while translating to civilian equivalent scales? The civilian officers like to think that MSP compensates for that loss. But isn’t the MSP supposed to be a ‘New Entitlement’. Why else are there are no arrears to MSP! Why is then Rank Pay included for fitment to new Basic Pay? It should not be included if MSP replaces Rank Pay. The pay commission report at some places indicates that it is a new entitlement: no arrears of MSP, MSP is also auth to Lieutenants and Personnel Below Officer Ranks who did not have any Rank Pay earlier! But it also at another place very ambiguously says that the calculation of MSP for PBOR is somehow affected by the lack of rank pay!?! Now anyone can interpret depending on which side he is on.

    6. In any case as far as Lt Cols are concerned even MSP is not able to compensate for the loss of rank pay vis-à-vis the equivalent civilian officers. As they were earlier drawing Total Pay equal to S-25 and more than S-24. Now both S-24 and S-25 will be drawing a hell of a lot more.

    7. Actually the problem has been heavily accentuated due to the odd and arbitrary Pay Band system which replaces the Pay Scale system. At each grade pay level, an entry basic pay level has been specified. Which in effect makes it practically quite like the old pay scale system. But what makes the system very strange is that at some ‘very-very arbitrary’ points you get into a super pay scale now called Pay Band. Now there is huge and sudden pay gain on certain promotions whereas relatively smaller increase on most of the other promotions. The very big arbitrary pay jump happens to lie between S-23 and S-24. Somewhere around Rs 15000! I really don’t know the merits of this new system? Is this as a result of some scientific study in the HR field or an accident which is going to be justified with hindsight and reverse engineered pseudo-logic?”

    What do you say????

  121. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 21, 2008 at 12:28 pm #

    There is likely to be good news for Lt Cols
    see (as given out by Navdeep’s blog)
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/MoD-blinks-on-Lt-Col-pay-demand-but-tells-services-to-promptly-implement-hike/363956

  122. HOWLER September 21, 2008 at 12:47 pm #

    1) I think all the readers of this blog will agree to one thing atleast i.e. there has never been more comprehensive and acrimonious debate amongst the govt employees regarding their roles/functions/duties/service conditions etc. than in the context of the sixth CPC. I read a comment on a Blog (http://vivekspace.com/2006/12/19/sixth
    -central-pay-commission-iii/#comment-8133) regarding the aspirations and expectation of various groups of the govt servants from the sixth pay commission. It reads as “The public servants are gradually realising the limits of their own importance in the social structure – a harbinger of coaxial national development. Thanks to the blog owner. We are
    learning many things through this blog that we might not have learnt through face to face discussions”. I think it simply strikes the nail on the head in relation to this debate.
    There are services which have remained so egrossed in their self congratulatory eulogies that they simply refuse to see the scenario/ground realities that have emerged over the years. They wish to remain captive to the past even to the extent of developing a “frog in the well” syndrome. These remain afflicted with the quest for NON-EXISTENT exclusivity. Leading the pack are the IAS, IPS and of course the defence forces. At times, they also ridiculously cite relevant constitutional provisions where these services are mentioned to propagate the myth of exclusivity and supremacy!

    2) I am a votary for the best compensation package for the govt servants that is available in the country. But when we talk about compensation packages, we entially
    discuss “who is getting what, for doing what and why.” All the reasons/justifications being forwarded for better pay,allowances and other compensatory facilities for defence forces/IPS/IAS are more relevant for the paramilitary forces and certainly with much more urgency. The discontent that you speak about in the defence forces is much more profound in the paramilitary forces.

    3) The defence forces predominantly harp on following reasons for grant of exclusivity and special treatment. While some of these may not be that relevant to IAF and Navy but certanly Indian Army has been bitterly crying loud about these.
    -securing the nation to extent of the peril of life.
    -restricted rights.
    -difficult deployment conditions.
    -extensive deployment in internal security duties.
    -disturbed famiy life.
    -short service span.
    -not being represented in the pay commissions despite being one of the largest group of central Govt employees.

    4) And defence forces cite following as the results of the denial of the exclusivity and “commensurate compensation” for the reasons in para 3 above:-
    - lower preference for defence forces as a career
    -shortages
    -increased disciplinary/court cases
    -suicides
    -fragging/fratricide
    -recruits opting for services rather than fighting arms within the force.
    -lesser time for rest/training in between deployments.

    5) Following are some of the assumptions they make & myths they propagate:-
    -every recruit at any level was a promising talent and would have been the future CEO in private sector if he had not joined the forces!
    -they are the most hard pressed service doing all the good things for nation while others are out to undo these acts!
    -They are exclusively involved in securing the nation making the “supreme sacrifices” at every step!!

    6) Now consider the factual position.

    a) Constitutional provisions & Restricted rights :-
    All paramilitary forces are raised under the constitutional provision by which the Central Govt can raise any Armed Force of the Union for security and ensuring integrity of the nation and the matters connected with these. It does so by acts passed by the parliament like the CRPF Act, BSF Act, ITBP Act etc. just like the ARMY Act. AirForce Act etc. In
    the constitution, and hence, in these acts also, the paramilitary forces are defined as the “Armed Forces of the Union”. Infact, if you go through these paramilitary acts like
    ITBP act, BSF act etc. you will find these are exact copies of the Army act. These acts define similar conditions of service including offences, punishments and justice delivery system for individuals subject to these acts as are stipulated in the Army act. At places even the language has not been
    changed! So, if there are GCM, PCM & SCM in defence forces, the paramilitary forces have corresponding GSFC,PSFC &SSFC where SFC stands for security force court and the rest including powers, composition etc are same!
    As if this was not enough, in addition, the paramilitary forces function under all the rules & regulations which govern the civil services and remain appliable to them too.

    b) Difficult service conditions, extensive deployment, disturbed family life & securing the nation:-
    There is nothing exclusive that Defence forces have done that has not been done by paramilitary forces too. Take the case of Army, Except Siachen, there is no other area where one paramilitary force or the other is not there with it. Be it the LoC, insurgency in J&K and north east. All the things ie field area, fidayeens, insurgency, LoC, hieghts of Kashmir, wars, kargil, assam, tsunami, floods, peace missions abroad, cyclones, earth quakes…. are being handled by these paramilitary forces too. Yes, i know, i left out siachen, that is the only thing that armed forces can claim to be their USP today which is not being handled by paramilitary forces. While after a stint at LoC,insurgency
    (hard area), the armyman goes for some swank cantt(peace area) with family as per well established and definite practice,the paramilitary forces remain committed to manning the regular boundaries of the country, tackling the naxalite problem, law and order, routine security arrangements etc.. etc… The list is much longer and totally unpredictable. Their peace areas are Rann of Kuchch, Deep jungles of northeast, high altitude areas. To say these are inhospitable is merely cracking a joke. But to paramilitary persons, especially the border guarding forces, these are also their “family” locations. The men stay at posts on the border/places of deployment while their families at these so called family locations which can be any thing upto 200 -300KMs behind or even more. Those men are lucky who
    actually get to spend even a couple of days in a month with their families in these so called family locations during the ‘family meet’ visit from their place of duty. And with no statutary provision in place for even such ‘family meet’ it is left to the descretion of the lowest level commanders to
    accord this ‘welfare’ to the men keeping in view the operational commitment. And these commanders are at their wits end to do so as the ‘operational committment’ remains perpetual & undefined with respect to the quantum as well as time and they are held responsible for any and every thing. It is thus not difficult to comprehend that even this family meet for few days remains a dream come true. With such a premium attached to few moments of family life, its easy to
    imagine that it is also the most vulnerable point for highest pressure. The family life is disturbed not only because one is not able to live with family but also because he is never aware when he will or if he ever will! Without any worthwhile system in place, family life remains so unpredictable, individual just cannot plan his routine
    domestic committments at all, leave aside emergency situation. That is the peace tenure that these paramilitary people “enjoy”. Most men prefer to keep their families back home rather than take them along to this horrible
    dispensation being sold to them as ‘family station’/’family life’.

    Few people Know, that apart from the normal peace time role, parmilitary forces have an active war time role too under control of defence forces. So, the actual situation is
    that the paramailitary forces remain carrying out peaceful elections, maintaining law and order, guarding vital installations of the country, fighting insurgents/ militants,
    tackling naxalites, catching veerappans etc..etc.. And of course they remain manning the borders without any worthwhile system of relief. They also fight the wars alongside the army whenever they happen in between. They are the ones taking the first brunt of hostile onslaught and repulsing it and continue forever even after the hostilities are over.While the Army goes back to the barracks for rest amidst all the adulation and self congratulatory boasts once the war is over, their poor fledgling cousins are left behind carying on with their usual guarding the sanctity of boundaries of India, maintaining of law and order, guarding vital installations of the country,fighting militants/insurgents, tackling naxalites, catching veerappans etc..etc.. And ofcourse, without any worthwhile system of relief. The poor guys are again ever busy ensuring the security and integerity of the country at all times i.e. pre, during and post war situation. They have their long lists of MVCs, VrCs, KCs, Shaurya Chakras, SMs, PPMGs,PMGs etc. yet they remain unsung heroes, rather, condemned to suffer silently.

    c) Short span of service:-
    The defence forces crib the short service span of their men. Remember it is a well announced and well explained procedure which every prospective recruit is well aware of
    at the time of joining the defence forces. An officer joining as SSC knows pretty well what his/her service span will be like and certainly with all the geniuses that are recruited by the defence forces they can plan it out. Incase they cant the defence force have a respectable exit mechanism with
    statutary system of session preperatory to the final exit where the individual can opt for a multitude of courses/training programs best suited to his capabilities for start outside. This also includes tailormade courses in institutions like IIMs, Xavier’s etc. for which probably they wouldnt qualfy even the entrance exams in normal course.
    This is further strengthened by the well established network of rehabilitation boards with a dedicated brief for resettlement of these released faujis. And ofcourse dont forget the all pervasive ex-servicemen quota! And the life-long CSD/Exservicemen facilities. Any person not able to utilise
    this largess, probably, deserve to remain the way they are.

    Now think of the situation in the paramilitary forces. Its all flawed from the very beginning! The recruits are not clear
    what they are joining from the very beginning. More so in the case of the border guarding forces. Those who join thinking them to be an offshoot of defence forces get the
    rudest of the shocks. They realise that despite the similar training and worse service conditions they are not treated any where even closer to the “elite” defence forces. Even though they may be operating shoulder to shoulder at places! Not to say, they are deprived of even the most basic
    amenities which the defence force are disregarding so matter of factly. While a paramilitary constable deployed in the remotest corner of the country, say the rann of kucch or keylong or lunglei, has to buy his soap, salt , food etc from the open market paying all the taxes to the govt and hefty premium to the guy making these things available to him at these god forsaken places! At the same time an army jawan/airman/sailor walks in to the swankest of the malls/stores( which they like to refer to as the CSD canteens) to shop for his needs in the comfort of climate controled environment even in the heart of the national
    capital! Ofcourse he doesnt have to be bothered about the taxes etc, his uniform is excuse enough for the grateful govt to waive off( or sucking it out of the hapless paramilitary chap in the rann to subsidise this jawan’s indulgences) to the maximum.

    But there are also those who join these paramilitary forces thinking that being ruled by the IPS they are joining a clone of police force. They are disillusioned from the training itself. They simply cant fathom the connection between the type of training, the role and tasks, copy of army act governing them vis-a-vis the khaki they are required to don or the IPS which rule them. For both the categories the only way to leave is to resign with out any benefits or sulk and live out the ordeal till one reaches pensionable service which incidentally is at least 20 years. No doubt the rate of those seeking VRS is one of the highest in PMFs as a group in the central Govt.
    Its a classic case of affliction with what can be called “third-gender” syndrome. Whatever may have been the vision of raising these PMFs, These forces have become nothing but the impotent cross of the Army and the Police just like the mule. It works the hardest, gets kicked the hardest and in the end suffers in silence cause it was created for being so.
    Does any one quitting the defence forces will actually like to join these. Answer is no. The fact is even the existing quota of exservicemen remains unutilised fully. those
    exservicemen who join seek to complete the remaining time for pensionable service after counting their defence service and leave. Though 6th CPC in its wisdom has recommended the lateral shift from defence forces to PMFs, but it most certainly will have few takers. How can you expect those running away from a way of life with all the present benefits to them to join some thing much worse off and deprived of any benefits therein. The dismal enrolment figure of exservicemen in the PMFs speaks the point aloud.
    Its no surprise the that there is a virtual exodus from the PMFs and persons even with the slightest better capabilities are leaving. The shortages are more acute in percentage terms than probably even what the defence forces claim.Not to speak of the suicides, fratricides, fragging and what not.

    Worst part is that while defence forces are sensitive to the problems and bargaining for better deal, the same problems which are more acute in PMFs are just brushed aside in the routine manner and even under the carpet.
    After all, when COAS speaks for his organisation, its actually a GC which speaks, a GC who has risen to be the Chief facing all the rough and tumble of his organisation. The conviction just gets built in on its own in whatever he says. And who submits the case for the PMFs? Usually a person, probably shunted out of his parent cadre to a
    retiring room, and at times with no prior experience of the organisation with absolutely no sense of belonging. And he knows very well what mules are meant for!

    PMFs demand “equal pay for equal work” is really unjustified cause that would mean downsizing the benefits of the defence forces! And no one wants that for sure!!!!!!

  123. Pragmatic September 21, 2008 at 1:02 pm #

    @raj #120:

    Read my blogpost above quoting the SCPC report again. It is not about the inclusion of the rank pay in the Basic pay. Even the SCPC has used that. It is about the edge given by the 3rd CPC for discontinuing the SDA. Pre-SCPC equivalence is with that edge. Once you remove that edge, the Lt Colonel comes into S-21 or S-22. That edge has now been given as the MSP, on services’ own request.

    This is the logic of SCPC, which I am tired of repeating. No comment so far, including yours, counters that logic. Thus, I am not hopeful at all about the Lt Colonels moving into PB-4.

  124. COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) September 21, 2008 at 1:54 pm #

    @Howler
    Today every one is fighting his own battle.Unfortunately there is no unity amongst the uniformed forces even though so many fucnttions are similar.
    My heart bleeds for the traffic policeman also ,who does not even have a shelter while doing his duty\ & i aleays make it a pont to wish him when I go for a walk.
    More than any thing else every one has to give credit for difficult conditions.
    As a nation,we do not care for human life at all & that is the cause for all our problems.When the scountry starts recognising good qulaities that the uniformed forces stand for, every one will get the correct perks.
    Now it is only for the one who can agitate.Since Army does not agitate the army was trampled upon,Now that the chiefs have taken a stand, people are just not liking it.
    If you really think about it ,we require to train ,all uniformed personnel in a common way & even cross post them to various other org.
    The problem is no one cares for the common good.Every one is scared about losing his empire & assets.

  125. menon September 21, 2008 at 2:48 pm #

    The MoD may have sent a note to The Services but the services should return the note. The Chiefs would loose face if they back out and these so called stands will be termed as feints by the men under their command. They will loose credibility.
    Play the game. Like the Babu in The MoD who writes notes to hamper the process the Service HQ should also send back a note with 101 observations. Delay implemenation the Indian Bureaucratic style. No one can complain of Military arrogance. After all the Military will just be functioning like the Bureacracy. Thats what everyone wants. Prgamtic has already started another thread to get the inputs for preparing a case but don’t worry Prags , the inputs there will also be the same.

  126. ReallyPragmatic September 21, 2008 at 2:50 pm #

    Most of the comments above have no meat except a blatant show of ignorance among uniformed personnel. I have had a cursory look at the SCPC report on the net and their logic.

    I must say that they have been dishonest brokers, to say the least.
    This can be seen in the way they have been selective in stating previous CPC positions.

    1. In the chapter on Armed forces they have shown only one pre-IV CPC civil NFSG for comparison with the armed forces. This was the highest NFSG among the many available then. If they had also shown the other civil NFSGs of the time(as shown in the chapter on Gp A civil services) the logic would not have held.

    2. The pre-IV CPC scales of Major(SG) and Lt Col(TS),crucial for equation upto NFSG level have not been shown.

    3. The pre-IV CPC scale of DIG shown,though technically correct, is misleading . The DIG’s scales were revised by the Home Ministry just prior to the IV CPC placing him above Cols. This was corrected by the IV CPC in its report and who again placed them between Lt Col and Col. Actually with Lt Col and then upgraded.

    4. The civil scale of SAG II(Brig’s nearest eqvt), that was merged with SAG I after IV CPC has not been shown. By the same logic the Brig should also be on the SAG scale.
    In effect, what has been attempted is to enlarge the disparity that existed between ‘the most advantaged in the civil services’ vis-a-vis the armed forces while narrowing the gap between the various civil services. No mention has been made of the uniform progression upto 14 years available across the board so far and was to be maintained.
    If parity with civil pay structure has been accepted, why is it that only military officers don’t get paid during training. Unless the Services confused the issue by clubbing NDA trg with IMA trg.
    Services walked into the trap with the ‘we are different’ argument.
    In places where the same logic has been applied like inter-se equation of JCOs with civilians, disability pension etc, the civil logic has been beneficial to the Services.
    Regarding the SDA, I suspect the IV and V CPCs did away with the concept if you see the pay progression. The starting edge and late commencement of pay was maintained. But it may be clearer if the reports are read, I am not sure if the extracts quoted by the VI CPC would give the complete picture.

  127. Pragmatic September 21, 2008 at 3:28 pm #

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