Open thread
As soon as you are complicated, you are ineffectual.
Blake, Common Man, Trusty, Davy Jones, orange dragon, menon, Pure Spam, gs and all other commenters….
Here’s some space for all the readers to share their thoughts, ideas and any other views they would like to share with the PE community. This is also THE place for off-topic comments.
Let loose all the bouquets, brickbats, advises, suggestions, counsels, admonishments, exhortations, tips, warnings and assessments here…
NB- A permanent link to this post is placed in the right column.
Let us discuss the abilities of an IAS oficer to govern a district. Maybe we should get some IAS chaps to talk of their inadequacies. In the corporate sector hiring an IAS officer is shunned unless he is taken in to facilitate license approval or use his service contacts. Most corporates abhor the attitude of bureaucrats.
So what makes them tick in the Indian system of governace? What is their style of governance? Have the Britishers left us a fool proof system that is capable of functioning in the auto pilot mode?
Take the recent Bihar floods. Who is responsible for the inadequacy of administration? Have we a system in place to ensure that reponsibility and accountability can be done when civil governance fails. In the Interest of the Nation it is imperative that all civil service service officers come under an Act like the Army act. Like the Courts Martial an Administrative Court must try civil servants accused of maladminstration by the general public. The Courts can comprise of Civil service officers from other Depts. For e.g. if an IPS officer is charged then the court should comprise of IAS and other allied service officers. Summary punishments must be authorised. After all the civil servants are necessary for the internal well being of the country.
@Menon
“In the Interest of the Nation it is imperative that all civil service service officers come under an Act like the Army act. Like the Courts Martial an Administrative Court must try civil servants accused of maladminstration by the general public. The Courts can comprise of Civil service officers from other Depts. For e.g. if an IPS officer is charged then the court should comprise of IAS and other allied service officers. Summary punishments must be authorised. After all the civil servants are necessary for the internal well being of the country.”
So we go back to the Banana Republic policy Sir ?
I think all of this has to come from within. Court Martials or similar fora just do not work in such situations. The need is to put more in the hands of specialists and slowly eliminate the need to have generalists.
The selection system has to change, instead of testing people of their academic acumen in the civil services examination, the psychological bit needs to be properly addressed – more akin to the SSB interview. For example, a person ABC takes the civils with two particular subjects as his majors – let’s say sociology and political science, and he clears the exam. The fact that he cleared the exam only shows that he is good in those particular subjects and not that he would be a good administrator or a good police officer or a good accounts man. That is the problem here – one gets through on the basis of academics and purely on account of his/her total marks is appointed to a service – a person may be zero in numerical ability but he may be granted IA&AS, he/she may be nil in interpersonal relations but can still be appointed to IAS, he/she may be a flop in OLQs or leadership qualities but may still get into IPS. One can obtain single digit marks in the interview of civils and still make it. This has to change. Having successfully undergone both systems, I can most definitely say that the SSB is a better system but needs a little fine-tuning. In short, till the time the recruitment pool and the recruitment system of that pool is not proper, we’ll keep lamenting about inadequacies of the steel frame with no luck. Drastic proposals in my humble opinion would not do the trick.
@navdeep
@menon
Regarding the job availability for IAS people in the corporate world, I think as you said rightly they would defenitely get an oppurtunity more than a defence guy. Do not forget the various regulators like TRAI, SEBI, PFRDA, IRDA , NDMA which have all become sinecures for the retired folks. By the way I did some research to check up on blogs and guess what the community of IAS does not exist on the net or “they are really busy ” to indulge in blogging.
Well I do not agree that OLQ is the bedrock of selection. Well we all know what has happened with so called OLQ in the armed forces. The fact of the matter is that we Indians have a tendency to cling to family first , the feeling of society and the community at large is never encouraged even from childhood. This creates a situation of me first, nepotism to come about.
Take the example of the US, the orientation towards society is very high and there is an activity wherein children are involved right from young age, with all philanthropic and other activities the spirit of sharing should be inculcated into our citizens right from an young age.
A step in the right direction has been taken in the SCPC where higher posts would attract lateral entry from the outside world, we should see how it is implemented. In fact open paper should be invited from the public suggesting how to implement these things.
A lot has been said and I think a few points have stood out as being mostly undisputed and true. If one were to classify the wrongs (a timeline would make an interesting analysis but I list them out randomly) they can perhaps be summarised as follows -
The Wrongs that the Sevices Committed (only the major ones)
1. AVSC (becoming top heavy)
2. Skewed Ratio of Officers in Staff to Units (despite deficiency)
3. Inter Service Rivalry (Army vs Air Force vs Navy)
4. Inter Arm manipulation within each Service (Infantry vs Others / Fighter Pilots vs Ground Duty etc)
5. Retaining the feudal culture and psychophancy.
These mistakes have produced an officer who avoids regimental postings, isn’t allowed to think beyond the wishes (welfare?) of his innumerable superiors and is constantly aware that a single unintended mistake may cost him his career.
In a nutshell – frustration and insecurity.
The Wrongs the Govt and the Environment Committed (Only the Major Ones)
1. Rampant (ab)use of Army in Aid of Civil Authority/Counter Insurgency.
2. Constant devaluation in rank and status without providing a genuine and fair exit / rehabilitation policy.
3. Failure to have any long term strategic vision (or understanding of Military Matters).
4. General apathy towards the men in uniform except in times of calamity.
5. Failure to curb rampant corruption and illegal wealth creation.
These mistakes put into the Service officer a sense of being indispensible in crisis and of being superior to the civil services (for he appears on the scene when they are in disarray and it happens so often). He has seen politicians and civil servants conniving to fuel turbulence and getting preferential treatment as also having extra sources of income. He also saw his civilian classmate buy fancy cars and property, travel abroad and become rich without paying income tax.
In a nutshell – a feeling of superiority, a suspicion of the outside world and a feeling of being left out.
Combine the results and you get a person who feels superior in ability yet insecure and frustrated in his environment and increasingly aware that he’s got left out.
Must we keep feigning surprise at the way this person is responding? Must we still paint his caricature in black and white with no other shades allowed?
Unfortunately we keep picking up one point from the list after another and fail to see the broader combined picture.
The answer lies in addressing both the issues simultaneously.
Give the forces their due – but make it binding on them to carry out some grassroot reform. There is possibly no better time to do it then now.
@voyager
Well said !!! We will definetely mirror the outside society, but who will bell the cat !!! In my perception, this affair will continue unless the next crisis happens and something gives way till then the same state of affairs will run.
Check this link
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080907/spectrum/main1.htm
@ voyager
“you get a person who feels superior in ability yet insecure and frustrated in his environment and increasingly aware that he’s got left out”
Well said… I have read a no of blogs by pragmatic/navdeep and their responses but could never find a thing that came any closer to the reality in armed forces. These are the very same feelings I have seen in officers around me.
A proper exit policy should do the trick.
@gs:
The Tribune article shows only one side of the story. We have already tackled it here.
Also read former Air Chief Krishnaswamy’s views on why people should be allowed to go after 10 years. And what about non-pilots in the IAF? Why are they not being allowed to go?
@pragmatic
Have read all ur blogs, am well aware of both sides of the story. The point is that the mainstream media have at last come into picture .
If you read in between the lines , SSC guys can leave after 14 years without pension , of course PC cannot. Sound weird . SSC can opt for PC , why cannot PC opt for SSC, at the 14th year. Amount of training is same. You have extracted your pound of flesh. If the guy is not motivated there is little you can do to flog him dead. If all things remain the same, there will be takers for pension . My post at GOK-5 is relevant in this context.
@pragmatic
The same rule applies across all three forces irrespective of the branch. Need to revisit the armed forces act.
@gs:
About the entry for officers, my view is that it should be a mix of :
1- 50% Short service officers of 3 to 5 years tenure, with only 10% of this cadre allowed to be permanently taken in.
2- 25% officers promoted from the ranks, whatever you wish to name that entry.
3- Balance 25% career officers, who have an initial engagement period of 5 years and concept of sign-on bonuses etc.
This will improve the career prospects for career officers and the wastage by premature release (say 5%) will be met by SS officers being given permanent commission.
The promotion from the ranks will provide opportunities for upward mobility to a larger segment of air warriors and soldiers. Because of their age, most of them will not be eligible for senior ranks.
This model can be tweaked with other benefits: say liberal educational or business loans for SS officers moving out, golden handshake for permanent officers after 10 years, opportunity to work in civil for two years and rejoin the services for permanent officers and so on. There are many ideas being implemented by the militaries the world over.
@ prags , gs
We keep going back to the same points again and again. Here are a few facts that need to be put into perspective before putting forth lame excuses of depriving a Soldier his fundamental rights…
1. The figures of 8 crores, 4 and 2.5 crores for training pilots of various streams are grossly exaggerated. I know because i have seen the worksheet on the breakdown. It includes the cost of everything fron the salary of the chaparasi to the cost of the ration given to the Airmen . It is absolutely wrong accounting , and the AF knows it . Case in point : it takes only 20 lakhs to train a pilot to attain CPL and qualify to fly Boeings and Airbus in the Civil. The conversion training on these aircraft is sponsered by the company that employs the pilot and treated as OJT . The AF on the other hand states ” training is an ongoing process” , implying that more a pilot flies in the AF , more he “learns” hence more his debt as now he is even more trained !What a sham.
2. The reason the AF did not want to let pilots go out were also varied :
a) The Three services were seeking for a increase in the number of senior ranks by approval from the Union Cabinet , and it was absolutely essential that they show as big a number on their present Middle Rung strenght as possible , to justify the ratioes.Thus officers from all branches , be it ground duties or flying or tecnical branch, have been denied exit!All they were intrested in was numbers.
b) Stopping ofthe middle and junior level pilots in the AF to leave in totality ensured that the Airlines outside facing acute shortage of experienced pilots were forced to increase the retirement age of pilots to 65 ( by DGCA decree ) and and were willing to absorb old pencil pushing Gp Capts (TS), Air Cmdes and AVMs into and extending their earning years by 5 to 8 years .
c) A little birdie tells me that some money ( 2C) was “gifted” to the Top Dog( then) by the Guild comprising of Capts of ATR s (who assumed that they would be elevated to Boiengs and Airbuses, only to find that they has been sidestepped by the Transport Pilots that Kittcha released during his tenure), to ensure no furthur such Pilots were released any more!
d) And this one is a no brainer – just plain jealousy. The P branch at HQs comprises of certain key officers , who incidentally are from Admin/ATC branch , and have gone beyond their call of duty in ensuring that no positive remark or recommendation is entered into the Note on File , whenever a “Geedy” pilot puts up his release application. Thus even terminal illnesses of father mother , child etc are deemed just usual occurences in life and not meriting release even after verification of their genuinety .
3. The Armed Forces have broken all laws pertaining to the rights of a free citizen in the country on the rhetoric of National Security and curtailed rights of a man in uniform and they will eventually get hauled up for it in courts .
I have a lot more nitty gritties .. but lets talk solutions from Now On ..
Note : Prags , I know it is your Blog and u promise nothing to no one …..but that was exactly my point ….!
@Blake:
There are only three ways to arrive at a solution.
1. A PIL in the SC against this gross violation of fundamental rights.
2. More media coverage to bring the issue to the notice of the common man and bureaucrats. This can put public pressure.
3. Educating the politicians, especially those in the Parliamentary Defence Committee.
Now, how do we go about it?
As fas as the views of the army on “attracting and retaining talent” are concerned, this piece at CLAWS website should provide a good indication.
@Pragmatic
“The best place to learn, on any subject, is to look at unpopular sources of information. If you read what every one else reads, you will think like other people think. Relish the obscure, the contrarian and the unpopular, because they can seed your thoughts with unique ideas. ”
How true!
As I have said earlier, this Blog is right on top of my list of daily reading. At times, I even refer to it twice or thrice to see if anything new has come up. If I am able to retain my faculty of critical thought as my years of service move into the third decade, I guess it would be worth it.
One question about the format of blog: We can’t comment on individual posts now, is it? Or perhaps I have missed some button somewhere?
I suggest the posts on individual threads were a good. Could we have them back??
Cheers!
ps: regarding my comment on the army being a mere ‘band aid’. I had seen that comment by Pragmatic in response to a newspaper article which lamented the use of army in IS duties in Jammu. pragmatic had written that ‘we can’t compare Paramedics to doctors’, or words to that effect. I unforntunately could not dig out that article, as the search function did not come up with articles on ‘band aid’.
maybe we could improve the search algorithm? The number of articles here are so numerous, that a better search algorithm can help us unearth older nuggets of wisdom / controversy!
@ Prag W.R.T your reply to @ Blake
Just a Thought
1) What if the PIL is Thrown Off in the name of “National Security”?
2) Media Coverage can go either way, specially in the present day scenario of over-information pumping, the way it happens in the comments of your Blog-Posts? You might see all the dirty linen of Services being washed in glaring public view! I welcome this solution but in the End the services on a whole might suffer a dent, that would be ok if something is gained but if the “Gain” is not sure the damage could be much more than anybody can anticipate.
3) Educating Politicians !! How can somebody think or even dream in their wildest dreams of Educating Politicians, they keep putting you across queries guided by again “Bureaucrats” for which the services have to keep answering.
4) The Only Solution is Cleaning WITHIN FIRST !!
@Raja:
Thanks for the good wishes.
One question about the format of blog: We can’t comment on individual posts now, is it? Or perhaps I have missed some button somewhere?
That feature is very much there on each post exactly same as the way you have posted here. This blogpost is just a one-off venture to direct so many “off-track” comments on other blogposts to one place.
I had seen that comment by Pragmatic in response to a newspaper article which lamented the use of army in IS duties in Jammu. pragmatic had written that ‘we can’t compare Paramedics to doctors’, or words to that effect.
My point was that everyone in the system has a role. If it is miltary’s designated role to be “instrument of finality”, it does not denigrate other instruments. Just like a paramedic saving someone’s life doesn’t mean that he will be paid more than a teacher or a scientist.
I unforntunately could not dig out that article, as the search function did not come up with articles on ‘band aid’. maybe we could improve the search algorithm?
The search engine works fine. Because bandaid was not there in that post, it didn’t show up. If you had searched for paramedic, it’d have shown up as the only result.
@ common man
i would agree with pragmatic that media coverage for the exit policy could do wonders. unfortunately due to the reasons covered earlier by blake etc. there is absolutely no likelihood of revision of this policy from within. in fact there is the ‘more loyal than the king’ brigade who will go out of their way to stall it , even if the proposal is put up.
the media can bring this gross injustice to the limelight and force the change. its difficult for any self-respecting thinking individual to take the other side on this issue. yes, the image of the services will take a beating …but that is bound to happen in due course of time.
are there any journalists here ???
@Common man:
The Only Solution is Cleaning WITHIN FIRST !!
It is an ideal but utopian solution. As I have said earlier, what will be the catalyst for that reform? Who will push the process and why? No man with four aces asks for a new deal. Reform can only come in two ways- either from an external crisis like ‘62 or worse, which discredits the military leaderhip completely. Although there are examples, as in post-71 Pakistan, where the military could still transfer the blame on to the politicians and resist change.
The other way is to have a reformist defence minister, with a huge political will. Something like the will displayed on the Indo-US nuclear deal. For that you need a majority in parliament and strong belief that it is the right course of action. Else, a GoM comprising Advani, Jaswant, Fernandes and Yashwant Sinha couldn’t push the reform process during the NDA regime. The interests of the civil and military (bureaucracy and leadership) are too deeply entrenched to counter any reformist suggestions.
So, where does that leave us to start with — legal, media awareness, targeting specific politicians? Any other ideas!
@pragmatic
There are only three ways to arrive at a solution.
1. A PIL in the SC against this gross violation of fundamental rights.
2. More media coverage to bring the issue to the notice of the common man and bureaucrats. This can put public pressure.
3. Educating the politicians, especially those in the Parliamentary Defence Committee.
Now, how do we go about it?
Any sense contacting gent at link below; making sure seating/ rank protocol maint though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suresh_Kalmadi
@ gs, raj, pragmatic
gs, raj – I am thankful for your endorsement and glad that we have here people who have their ear to the ground.
The solution proposed by Pragmatic in response to gs (at #11) seems a workable one deserving serious debate and fine tuning. It is definitely much better then AVSC-2 (which is something akin to 200% pension beyond age 100 for half of em pass away at Lt Col). The key would lie in having clearly defined exit policies and a few options available to all categories. None of these options should be grossly disadvantageous vis-a-vis the other.
@navdeep
“The need is to put more in the hands of specialists and slowly eliminate the need to have generalists.”
[1] There is a opposite view long held, but now almost nothing may help mend the rot.
From ‘The Men who ruled India’ by Philip Mason, Chapter 13, pg 207:
All not incongruous if it is clear that moral (classical etc) values took ascendancy over all other. There was therefore no need for lists of ‘20 most /more corrupt ICS men’ as is the norm today.
[2] Also please see Nirad Chaudhury’s book ‘Thy Hand Great Anarch’ where he says
Cheers (?)
@All:
Karthik has been asking this question continuously — Are all service officers Class I officers or not? If we go by these comments (here and here) of MES, then they are not. MES says-
I am certain that the IAS haven’t forced the Army to post these officers in junior appointments as part of a larger plan to degrade the status of service officers. Then, who is to blame once such facts may have been brought to the notice of the SCPC/ CoS, resulting in PB3 for Lt Colonels. This is probably what the Indian Express editorial could also be referring to. One wonders then, if the services will still get anything more from the government in the SCPC.
@Pragmatic
Though MES is a strange abberation and needs to be disbanded and outsourced much like some Ordnance factories – your observation is relevent.
Sometimes I wonder if most of our abberations are because of the higher strength of the cadre and a skewed geographic concentration?
Suddenly we find that for an odd Class-I IAS/IPS/Judicial officer, there are a huge number of Class-I Army Officers in the immediate geographic vicinity.
Presuming a Commander spends 150 days an year in his local HQ – who does he deal with? Since the ‘local boss’ meets the ‘local boss’ (and the typical Indian tendency to get one to one) – we have Corps, Divisional and Brigade Commanders meeting the MLAs, DCs, the DMs, the Tehsildars and Municipal Counsellors; specially in peace locations.
Conversely – an Army Commander may never meet the Chief Minister of all the states in his AOR even once in his entire tenure (and so on down the chain).
Once those equations are defined – the Majors and Captains are left to deal with the thanedars. The NCOs deal with the chaprasis and flunkies.
Even at Delhi, we have a hundred Maj Gen equivalents all homing onto 3 or 4 Joint Secretaries. Their five hundred odd Grade-1/2 Staff Officers are in turn hobnobbing with the desk officer who feels almighty.
This relatively larger strength of cadre and skewed geographic concentration has actually ruined all our equations at the functional level.
The MES perhaps is a small reflection of that enigma?
@All
Merely occupying a particular appointment is not the actual reflection of status. There are posts which are tenable by various ranks, and it happens on the civil side too.
To take an example, a DM/DC of a District can be any of these grades – STS/JAG/NFSG. Another example – sometimes the District Police Chief is an officer senior in Grade to the DC/DM but junior to him in the functional hierarchy of the distt, but if the same two officers are posted to the centre, that particular police officer may go as let’s say the Director and the IAS officer may become his junior as a Dy Secy. Aberrations all, but they are there in every official scenario.
Similarly as of now, the appointment of a GE can be held by EE, EE(SG), Maj / Lt Col but it does not reflect the inter se equivalence. The Appt of an AGE from the civil side can be held by an AE(Group B) as well as an AEE (Group A), does the Army then say that AEs have become equivalent to AEEs ?. Till the 80s, Subedar Majors were also posted as AGEs, could the civilians then say that since Sub Majs, Lts and Capts are all holding the appt of AGE – all of them are equal in status ? Redundant logic I would say.
On Voyager’ comments above. Let us face it that in India only that particular service or appointment shall have the maximum ’say’ which has the ability to put the most hurdles in public life. In fact I would say it is not about the service but about the nuisance value. Forget other examples, take an in-service example. There is a Major who is a Coy Cdr of an Inf Coy and there is a Maj from the Sappers who is a GE. Now even in this case though they are equivalent in status, there would be hordes of senior officers hovering around the GE and the poor Inf Coy Cdr would not be a shade close to the other – it all boils down to just about the nuisance power in India and not the actual sheen of any service.
@Navdeep:
Thanks for clarifying. Because the comments by MES were left unanswered, I brought them here on the Open Thread. And I knew that I could always bank upon you
@Voyager
In the Armed Forces, there is a Class I officer who is a doctor, another one who is an administrator, another who is a Pilot, another who is a Ploice Officer so on and so forth. In the civil side there are different services doing different jobs. Therefore if we take a holistic view, in any area the number of Class A officers on civil side (despite of excluding all other equivalent status people like ministers, judges etc) would still be greater than those from the armed forces but the armed forces officers dont deal with all of them. The only exception to this is ”Places where and when there is trouble”, there one will find a large number of armed forces officers vis a vis the civilian equivalents. Eg Warzones, conflict zones, calamatious zones, troubled areas and very hard areas. In this areas, the number of armed forces officers would be 10 times more than these ”fair weather birds”.
The ””MES”” logic is skewed as explained by Navdeep.
@Broke
Agree with your point. I was trying to highlight the points of inflection.
As a Colonel in AHQ, I used to take an appointment to meet a Deputy Secretary (Major/Lt Col equivalent) – not because he was haughty but simply because there were a dozen other Colonels (and beyond) who wanted the same. Many of us found that things could move faster if smaller issues could be cleared with the desk officer instead. It was also known that since the venerable and helpful Desk Officer had spent 20 years in the same chair – what he wrote mostly went unchanged right upto the Minister.
But then, maybe amongst the mandarins in South Block who finally decide things like SCPC; we convey a very confused picture of our rank and heirarchy. I can almost hear them thinking “What?? PB-4 to that Lt Col who was always sitting with the Desk Clerk???”
@Navdeep
Your nuisance value comment is bang on target. We see Doctors, Railway, Telecomn, Airlines, Teachers and Bank employees do it so often. But can the Military afford to go (or be pushed) that way? Isn’t this what makes us stand apart from Pakistan / Bangladesh?
@All:
Lt General Joshi in his column “In defence of the armed forces” says in his conclusion (the rest is a rehash of all the old arguments):
@Common Man/ Others:
Here is the list of emoticons. Remember to leave a space before the emoticon.
Dear Prag,
As yr name suggests you have been pragmatic in yr responses. I would like to get yr views on
1. Lt Col or equ in IAF and IN in non-war situation comes after 18 yrs. For non-arms/technical/admin this is true all the time. Col and Brig, which are selection grade and few in number are usually in 22 to 30 yrs servie band. Do you feel they shd have been in PB-3 as recommende by 6CPC?
2. Is the purpose of MSP to bring their salary nearer sel gd of IAS or it is for the difficulties of Mil service?
3. A Sub-area Cdr with over 30 yrs service who may not have become Maj Gen and who has to deal with Collr, could be ‘called’ to meetings chaired by Collr. Quite possible the Collr may be his son. Both joined as Class I at the young age 20-21. You think just bad luck?
4. Should we put the three servie Chief in Secy gd and put them under Def Secy who may be given Cab Secy gd? After all we want civilian control of Services?
spell
Just fauji writing. No spelling mistakes.
@AB Mehta:
1. Lt Col or equ in IAF and IN in non-war situation comes after 18 yrs. For non-arms/technical/admin this is true all the time. Col and Brig, which are selection grade and few in number are usually in 22 to 30 yrs servie band. Do you feel they shd have been in PB-3 as recommende by 6CPC?
I “feel” that they should be in the grade of the President of India. Do my “feelings” matter, except as a boost to my fragile ego?
2. Is the purpose of MSP to bring their salary nearer sel gd of IAS or it is for the difficulties of Mil service?
From the SCPC–
3. A Sub-area Cdr with over 30 yrs service who may not have become Maj Gen and who has to deal with Collr, could be ‘called’ to meetings chaired by Collr. Quite possible the Collr may be his son. Both joined as Class I at the young age 20-21. You think just bad luck?
I think Navdeep has just answered this question with the GE and infantry company commander example. Voyager has also given his experiences at the AHQ about civil equivalence. I agree with their views.
4. Should we put the three servie Chief in Secy gd and put them under Def Secy who may be given Cab Secy gd? After all we want civilian control of Services?
Are you asking me or answering the question yourself, with your views of civilian control? In any case, if and when the CDS comes up, he will be equal to the Defence Secretary. Thus, the three service chiefs will be under him status wise then.
Now, let me ask you something. How far do we go back for status? The C-in-C on 14 August 1947 used to be Number 2 after the Governor General. Can we go that far? If the government issues another paper on protocol saying that a Lt Colonel is equal to the Chief Minister of the state, will Ms. Mayawati vacate her seat for a Colonel visiting her office? It is not what is de jure that matters; the de facto does.
@ Navdeep
Banana Republic – no way. Today we are a bureacrato-police state. May not be under Martial law but under IAS/IPS autocracy.
It is not the selection process but the grooming thereafter that makes the change. When IAS/IPS probationers come for attachment their outlook is at best matched by our JCOs. Thereafter the powers vested in them alter their confidence and mindset. The Army man despite a better selection process is crimped into degeneration.
You are in the legal field. You must have heard of Judges being contacted an evening before the Judgment. If the case is sound then a confusing judgment is word so that it can be appealed against and by the time the case is decided the original text is sidelined. No Lawyer worth his salt wants to be a judicial magistrate or a Judge when he can earn better otherwise. So, it is the mediocre Judge who deliver mediocre judgment. Here I have heard of even moving cases to the Court of a favourable Judge.
Take the case of Justice Sri Krishna and his competence displayed in the SCPC.
Why does this happen? Because Civil servants are sure that they can get away with anything. They will never be responsible or accountable for anything.
How do you get them to be accountable? Which is more effective a CAT case or a Summary trial by a court. Aren’t IAS/IPS officers taught the same law (and maybe more) that we learn in the Academy? Is so, and if an Army officer can deliver speedy justice by summary courts why can’t the same happen in civil departments?
CAN U SHED SOME LIGHT ON THE ACTUAL RECOMMENDATIONS OF AVSC II AND WHAT WAS THE APPROVED PART OF IT. AND WHAT IS THE FAUJI RELUCTANCE IN IMPLEMENTING THAT. ALSO WHY THIS DISPARITY WHERE THE ARMY PROMOTES LT COL TO SELECT COL IN 16 YRS NOW WHEREAS THE NAVY DOES SO IN THE 21st YEAR?? MAYBE NAVDEEPJI CAN SHED SOME LIGHT?? AM ACTUALLY TROUBLED BY THE DUAL STANCE OF THE FAUJI BRASS ON THIS ISSUE. WHY CASTIGATE THE IAS WHEN U ARE RELUCTANT TO GIVE UR LT COLS THEIR PROMOTION ON TIME IF THATS WHAT AVSC II IS ABOUT??
@Someone:
I am certain Navdeep is best suited to take this on. My request is for you to turn the capslock OFF. All capitals amounts to e-shouting! Thanks.
Sorry to spoil the party here… but found this http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xuELAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vlcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7118,1287442&dq=indira+gandhi+pakistan
tucked away in the web.
Maybe it’s gotta do with this: http://www.labnol.org/internet/search/google-scans-old-printed-newspapers/4458/
@Someone
Technically there is no disparity in promotions. The min time span for the promotion to Col/Gp Capt/Capt(IN) is 20 years for substantive capacity. The services according to their own unique requirements and vacancies mould their promotion policy around this figure of 20 years. The officers promoted as Full Cols in 15 years in the Army are Acting Cols.
@Menon
“You must have heard of Judges being contacted an evening before the Judgment. If the case is sound then a confusing judgment is word so that it can be appealed against and by the time the case is decided the original text is sidelined.”
Believe me Sir, it is not that rampant. The judiciary, especially the Higher Judiciary is mostly untouched because of the inherent checks and balances in the system – the bar definitely gets to know when something is wrong.
“Take the case of Justice Sri Krishna and his competence displayed in the SCPC.”
A Judge is supposed to decide and adjudicate on what is presented before him, and did we present it well ?
@AB Mehta
“A Sub-area Cdr with over 30 yrs service who may not have become Maj Gen and who has to deal with Collr, could be ‘called’ to meetings chaired by Collr”
There is no question of ‘calling’ a meeting by the Collector. Sr Army Officers may voluntarity visit junior civilians but it has no sanctity of any legal provision. Haven’t you even seen sr army officers visiting the offices of junior army officers ? It happens and no big deal I think. It should only be an issue if the junior does not show due respect.
“Should we put the three servie Chief in Secy gd and put them under Def Secy who may be given Cab Secy gd? After all we want civilian control of Services?”
The Chiefs never were and never would be under the Defence Secy. As on date, the Chiefs are on No 12 of the Warrant of PRecedence while the Def Secy is on No 23. A huge difference.
@ Navdeep
The Bar would know but also does nothing. The Vigilance & Anti Corruption Bureau knows that bribes are given at RTOs and Town & Country Planning offices, but what do they do? No accountability. Even those caught on camera in sting operations survive court.
Shifting courts is not rampant in general cases and where free legal aid is given. But in high profile cases the law is subverted with the help of the very people who are supposed to uphold it. These days even the Media jumps in to confuse the hell out the case. The Judge is after all a human being and also watches TV. And that brings us to
‘A Judge is supposed to decide and adjudicate on what is presented before him, and did we present it well?’
If you read Robin Sharma’s ‘Monk who sold his Ferrari’, he writes about an apple and its illusionary effect. Do read it (its somewhere in the first couple of chapters) and the statement may not seem true.
Justice SK was not in Judgment in the SCPC. He was supposed to display his core competence & he failed miserably. I wonder what the fate of those who went to him for Justice would have been.
@ Pragmatic w.r.t your quoted text of Lt Gen Joshi
You Quote Only those portions and/or parts of the write-ups which coincide or match with your thinking OR on which you want to either appreciate, criticise or analyse the report. WHEREAS The Original Quoted Source should be quoted in full, as you will agree that part-quotes change the whole meaning of the Write-up which the original author intends convey. I hope i make myself clear
THE FOURTH PAY COMM CARVED RANK PAY OUT OF YOUR BASIC.
SO WHEN THE FIFTH PAY COMM INCREASED THE BASIC FOR ALL BY 3.6 TIMES, THE RANK PAY INCREASED ONLY 2 TIMES THUS A LT COL LOST OUT ON 1000/- PM ON THE RANK PAY. ALSO A LT COL RANK WAS ACHIEVED AT 18 YRS OF SERVICE ie BASIC OF 4000/-, THIS WHEN MULTIPLIED BY 3.6 TIMES MAKES IT 14400, WHEREAS THE MIN BASIC FOR LT COL WAS 13500/-.
TO CALCULATE OTHERWAY
THE RANK PAY WAS CARVED OUT OF BASIC PAY,MISCHIEVOUSLY, BY THE FIN MIN BABUS. POINT ACCEPTED BY SUPREME COURT.
SO THE BASIC PAY OF A LT COL, WHEN MOST OF THE SENIOR LT COLs JOINED THE ARMY, WAS ADVERTISED TO BE 4000+800(RANK PAY).
THE FIFTH PAY COMM MULTIPLIED ALL BASIC PAY BY 3.6, HENCE THE LT COL’s BASIC SHOULD HAVE BEEN = 4800 X 3.6 = 17200.
BUT IT WAS REDUCED TO 13500+1600 = 15100.
EVEN IF WE TAKE THE MINM SERVICE TO BECOME LT COL AS 16.5 YEARS AS IN CASE OF ARMY/PILOTS, STILL THE DOWNGRADATION WAS CLEAR AND NOW SPC WANTS TO DOWNGRADE YOU FURTHER.
YOU ALL SHOULD GO TO COURT FOR REDUCING YOUR PAY AND STATUS BY EVERY PAY COMM AND ALSO FOR LURING YOU BY WRONGFUL ADVERTISING.
@Common Man[#40]:
The Original Quoted Source should be quoted in full, as you will agree that part-quotes change the whole meaning of the Write-up which the original author intends convey.
That is unfair criticism on three counts-
#1- The link to the full article by General Joshi is there in my comment. So, any reader can go through the article.
#2 – I specifically said “in his conclusion (the rest is a rehash of all the old arguments)” to show that I am only quoting from the conclusion. And I do not find merit in repeating his other arguments.
#3 – If you read the piece, his conclusion is 180 degrees opposite to his preceding arguments; and he virtually negates his earlier logic by saying that “the market forces are poor arbiters in this matter”.
@Menon[#39]
“The Bar would know but also does nothing”
Contrary to popular perception, whenever there has been a controversy in the higher judiciary, it is the bar associations of high courts who have tried to bell the cat. Recent example being the ‘cash on door’ scam in the Punjab & Haryana High Court. The only two examples of impeachment also emanate from the Bars’ proactive stance. Our systems are not so much in the dumps as we seem to think, but maybe I’m an optimist and that’s why I see it that way
When there is miscarriage of justice, esp in criminal cases, the first blame has to go to the prosecution since if proper evidence is not brought out, the hands of the judge are tied. The Judge has to decide on the basis of the material presented before him. DItto for the Pay Com or for that matter any other commisson. The Chairperson or the Presiding Officer has to deal with the material presented before him, did we present any doucment whatsoever on the equivalence of Army Officers vis-a-vis Civilians ? How did the Pay Com come to the conculsion of ‘established relativity’ ? Did we counter it ? These are the questions left unanswered. If you send me your email address, I’ll fwd you a query on the issue sent by me to the Min of Finance.
@ Navdeep September 8th, 2008 at 7:37 am
Your comments are devoid of any logic “… Similarly as of now, the appointment of a GE can be held by EE, EE(SG), Maj / Lt Col but it does not reflect the inter se equivalence….” When Lt Col , Col (TS) are working at the appointments of EE/ EE(SG)/ SBSO post in MES then naturally it will reflect their inter se equivalence. When Lt Col are working as GEs under Civilian CWE (Director) then on what ground they can claim that they are equivalent to SE (Director) . Similarly Col (TS) are working in the post meant for STS like DCWE and SBSO and under Civilian CWE (SE/director), then why not they are not equal to SBSO/ EE (SG)/EE. On what ground they are saying they are senior to even director (SE) when they are working under it. When Major are working at group B posts of BSO then why should they not be considered equal to group B level/ Group A junior most level.
When it comes to pay and status / equivalence you want JAG for Major and PB-4 for Lt Col when it comes to working you are ready to work at post must below your so called status. Why should govt. spend more money in employing at Col (TS) in PB-4 when same out put can be produced by STS level officers like EE and SBSO. Is it not putting taxpayers money down the drain ?
The whole issue relates to more no. of ranks in army vis a vis civil. Lt, Capt doing the same job all over india but why rank of capt at all. If you abolish capt rank from armed forces the whole problem will be solved.
3 ranks in civil side in PB-3 (JTS, STS, JAG) and three in army side (Lt, Maj & Lt Col). You have already down graded Lt Col to a non select post by AVSC. Then why demand of a select pay scale (PB-4) for Lt Col ? Then equal no. of ranks ion both sides on PB-4 also , four from civil side -NFSG, DIG, SAG, HAG and four in Army side- Col ,Brig, Maj Gen , Lt Gen.
There is another angle to it , on one hand armed forces claim that they have shortage of more than 12000 officers, on other hand , officers are sent in very large no. to work on rather junior civil group B / group A post in civilian organizations like MES, GREF/ BRO, DGQA etc as illustrated above. Then you say , despite of working at junior level , we should get the pay and grade of senior officers. Govt. is run on economic considerations and sound logic rather than on emotions and misplaced data. It is high time the authorization of officers in armed forces be reviewed because of technological changes . Such large downsizing has already taken place in Civil /banks/ PSUs & corporate sector.
AVSC has down graded the post of Lt Col from a select to non select post. Then why you want to equate non select post to a select post ? Let a select post be equated with a select post – col with director, Brig with DIG. Maj Gen with JS Lt Gen with Addl Secy.
There is another angle to it related the internal administration of Armed forces. If one assume the average service span of a permanent commissioned officer 20-54 years – i.e. total average 34 years. If Lt Col with 13 years of service is to be granted PB-4 , then total no. of officers at any time in PB-4 in armed forces will be 62% [(34-13)x100/34 ]. This means 62 % of permanent commission officers will be in PB-4. only 38 % will be in PB-3. The modern organizational design requires otherwise that is less officers in senior grade and more in junior grade. There will be no difference between a lt col and a senior Maj Gen as later will not be getting any rank pay. Imagine the situation, when the ranks of Col (TS) is swelled by all Lt Col from 17-18 years to 26 years of service with hardly anything to gain either financially or status wise, command and administration of these officer will be nightmare of any commander.
It is time the govt and top brass think on these lines rather succumbing to than populist demand of placing Lt Col in PB-4.
Another thing which is need is sound exit policy for armed forces officers ? Why you want to have an officer who does not want to serve you ? Give him a exit on demand. There will be a jolt , but after that every thing will be alright? Life is not so easy on the civil/ corporate side? You have to prove your worth every year that you are worthy of compensation what you are getting ?
Broke / blake / menon etc are writing a lot of stuff which gives us some idea that the Lt Cols and others have been cheated along the years to the tune of Lakhs of Rupees and a lot of status . Shri Navdeep is certainly an authority on these matters as is seen from his knowledge of therules etc.
I would like Navdeep and Pragmatic to pool their knowledge resources and actually work out the full loss for Service officers in terms of status, rank and money because of the IAS activity…I liken it to ISI activity really…
Maybe an open letter to the PM, RM , FM and seek their explanation.
Your credentials are undeniable and you could take up the role of mouthpiece for the Faujis…Charity begins right here, Gentlemen
regards and thanks
P.S. Shri Pragmatic, U are highly stressed out and need a break…the tone of ur letters is either too agressive or defensive…just a suggestion, Saabji
@ Prags / Navdeep
As per SCPC notification,
It should hold good for army doctors as well but might create further confusion / furor. What do you think will be the outcome. will it be implemented in forces or not ??
All doctors in services with 20 yrs service are Lt Col’s. Also they complete 7 yrs of regular service in NFSG by 18 yrs.
@Citizen
Like my “comments are devoid of logic”, your outburst also goes to show that you are a perfect example of half baked knowledge. In fact, probably being from MES, you have replied with a prejudged idea that I am trying to bring down other services. I have full respect for the MES and all other services and on the contrary am against army officers going ballistic on their anti-MES comments. You may like to read my post http://indianmilitarybenefits.blogspot.com/2008/09/have-faith.html on this.
Now talking about senior officers picking up junior appointments. It is not about the rank but about the established tenability of posts. Certain posts are tenable by different ranks. In a district, the DM is always senior to the district police chief and in certain states the DM even initiates the ACRs of such police officers. Now there are situations wherein a DC/DM/Collector may be from the Senior Time Scale whereas the district police chief would be from the Non-Functional Selection Grade, do you mean that due to this reason, the NFSG IPS officer’s status has whittled down to STS ?. I’ll give you another example – an Indian Postal Service officer of the SAG wears the ranks of a Brig when on deputation with the Army Postal Corps but is appointed as a Jt Secy GoI when posted under the Central Staffing Scheme. When we compare ranks, we compare them with grades on the civil side and not with posts. There is a difference between grades and posts and I hope you know it. It is perfectly OK for various grades of officers holding one particular post and this is so very rampant in our officialdom.
You are very vehement about your opinion that Lt Cols should not be granted PB-4. How do you then explain the fact that a Lt Col’s take home salary was much more than an SE earlier while it has now been brought down by the 6th CPC notification ? NO govt can bring down the grade of an officer who was drawing more than a comparative grade earlier without assigning reasons. And for your very kind information, an SE is still equated with a Lt Col according to the Warrant of Precedence.
@someone
“of the IAS activity…I liken it to ISI activity really…”
Brilliant. Thank you Sir. Any way of politely, legally declining both ?
Please allow me to send you a std MacDonald pizza Sir, as a token of regard ?
Request your address at c/o pragmatic
@ PS
Please allow me to send you a std MacDonald pizza Sir, as a token of regard ?
Request your address at c/o pragmatic
Do I also get one for reading the post?
@ Menon
” It is not the selection process but the grooming thereafter that makes the change. When IAS/IPS probationers come for attachment their outlook is at best matched by our JCOs. Thereafter the powers vested in them alter their confidence and mindset.”
Sir, you will be charged with ‘stealing the affection of oops…..ideas of Veeru‘
Maturity comes with responsibility. Responsibility comes with delegation. Effective delegation comes with the footnote that all failures with the right intent will be pardoned.
@navdeep,
good rebuttal (refering to Citizen’s comments).MES anyways stand for Money Eating Service and we must find a way to abolish this evil.
@citizen,
well,did some one stop you from getting your daily quota?you seem to breathe fire and brimstone.Must learn to relax.Let the faujis too have their due
@ PS
“ Please allow me to send you a std MacDonald pizza Sir, as a token of regard ? Request your address at c/o pragmatic”
Sir allow me to buy you pizza hut chain, as a token of your extreme intelligence, spontaneous wit and absolute intelligence!
@ Veeru
you will be charged with ’stealing the affection of oops…..ideas of Veeru
To be noted Mi’Lord for inclusion as an offence in the updated AA 2020
Where is my Friend MIHIR?
Hey! come back onboard.
Promise – No tech discussions this time.
@navdeep
Very balanced take on issues. Nothing much to add.
@Citizen,
You appear to be a highly charged up MES man, out to steal the thunder on behalf of all your brethren. This is highly unbecoming of your brotherhood. MES, what do they do and what the real full form is not a very closely guarded secret. It has been very explicitly and loudly given out by one of the tormented, forced Clientèle of YOURS in some cantonment (where you rule Courtesy your nuisance value) on this very BLOG. Come on , have a heart! Do not stir the nest with your half truths. LT COL was a select grade till AVSC came in, (I afford you the opportunity to correct me, if I am wrong) were they not there with MES then? Why and how AVSC came is beyond the comprehension of a vested party with rabid mindset. WHY DON’T YOU RELAX friend? ENJOY YOUR AFFLUENCE IN PEACE, (courtesy the relative security in a cantonment provided by!!!!!!!!!) ? Let the wronged short out their grievance with concerned BABU, s. Have a good day!
@ Prags / Navdeep / all
Any comments / clarifications on posts no 46 / 47 about DACP for service doctors??
Latest from the corridors of AHQ….
Q – What’s the new category between Officers and PBOR?
A – Its OBCR – Officers Below Col Rank.
Somebody need to address the queries raised by ‘Doctor’. Navdeep…Pragmatic…Voyager..contrived….
@voyager
“A – Its OBCR – Officers Below Col Rank.”
So right Sir.
Anybody want to read a genuine ~10 year old TOI newsreport which mentions an A**OBCR touching the feet of the MS in Dilli AHQ (in public view) as a pragctical salaam version ? Will scan and send you a copy. Send your email id with pers. number, ppo number, dsoi number, last unit served, Part II Order authority for marriage if any, copy of any flimsy held. All certified by a Class I GO or Bank Manager. Also name, number, rank and medical cat; credit rating on this log and other. By the way, everyone reads this blog including consumers of Murree Beer. Take thought / care folks.
@Strays Bark:
…including consumers of Murree Beer.
Park Lodge a handsome residential properly was purchased by the company[Murree Brewery] from Mrs. H. Whymper in 1888. It was the principal residence and head office of the company till 1959, when it was taken over by the Government of Pakistan to house the office of the President of Pakistan. It remains an office of the Head of State of Pakistan from 1960 till the present day.[Link]
@Strays Bark
Thank god you make it so simple!
I’d have wanted all that “Thru Proper Channel” with recommendations of the IO, RO, SRO, FTO, HTO and the Staff in chain(s)!
)
@Pragmatic
Enlightening indeed. Makes the politics that much more understandable
@Doctor wrt #47/48 and Veeru wrt #60
I haven’t studied the portion dealing with the Dynamic ACP for Dcotors but presuming what you quote to be true, I have the following to offer.
The point you raise is certainly something which could be taken up by someone in a court of law sometime. It can possibly also be taken up by whosoever is dealing with all the anomalies for the Services (though I don’t think it has been and reasons are possibly as explained below). It also sounds like another of those subtle manipulations that have pushed the Service Officers below their equivalent counterparts.
As to if it will create further imbalances and furore – frankly speaking, the internal perception is that the Docs are already placed a grade above the others in terms of emoluments (and treated like a holy cow). For example, there is no reason for the DG AFMS to be considered as someone unique and be prescribed a special pay scale when the same is not available to other PSOs like the DG Infantry or DG Mechanised Forces. Yet its there. Likewise with NPA – its a relic from the past else the logic should also apply to a B Tech qualified officer who can similarly “practise” outside and make as much money as a doctor if not more (and get treated in Apollo rather then the MI Room!)
Secondly, assuming it were done – I suppose it would create further disgruntlement because you can’t have Lt Cols of AMC going to PB-4 and getting a grade pay equivalent of a Major General while the rest haven’t even made it to PB-4.
In the larger interest though I would say it doesn’t matter even if a select group achieves parity with their counterparts and is not held back beacuse of internal compulsions. The Docs are doing a good job under trying conditions and it is something the DG AFMS must try to influence.
The only hope I suppose lies in having the decision makers dealing with the issue under your knife
@Doctor
Traditionally (and you must be knowing this), AMC has been kept at par with Central Medical Services in such aspects. Let us see what they do this time. WIll get to know only after the DACP scheme is promulgated.
Sorry for the late reply sir
@All:
Do the services headquarters need to consider this line of thinking? Excerpts from this [Link]:
Question: Can you point to one example of a company with institutionalized devil’s advocacy that works?
Answer: Under Jack Welch, GE did a great job of integrating devil’s advocacy into its day-to-day dealings. An executive who joined GE when it bought RCA once told Welch that “what passes for conversation at GE would be considered a mugging at RCA.”Before GE, IBM under Tom Watson Jr. produced decades of success based on what he called its “contention” system–basically an institutionalized form of devil’s advocacy. …
Question: How can a company ensure that there is a healthy level of disagreement?
Answer: The ancient Persians used to make decisions twice–first when they were drunk, then when they were sober. Only if they agreed in both circumstances would they act on the decision. The process worked. The Persians ruled much of world for three centuries.We think companies need to imitate the Persians. As you might imagine, we get a chuckle any time we say this to an audience. People want to retire to the bar to continue the discussion.
What people miss is that most corporations make major decisions in a state that, while not drunk, is certainly emotional. Companies don’t need to have executives pop a few martinis and reconsider their thinking. Executives need to find a thoroughly sober, dispassionate environment in which to give their emotional decisions a second look. That need is the genesis for our approach to devil’s advocacy.
[...] Geelani wants Kashmir to join Pakistan. A nation, as I brought out in this comment yesterday, whose head of the state sits in the former head office of a brewery. Park Lodge a [...]
“Engineering Students looking at Army”
Link for Details :- http://forum.itacumens.com/index.php?topic=27072.0
@ common man
“Engineering Students looking at Army”
They are just looking – okay -fine.
Poor sods don’t know what will happen if they join.
@menon
“Poor sods don’t know what will happen if they join.”
Taught Yoga, meditation classes most likely by anyone who has it in him.
OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmm
Can some veterans here kindly enlighten me about how to make things appear in “Italics” and how to Make quotes appear in those “shaded boxes”.
I am not an absolutely techie nor a primitive so a decent hint should get me on my way after a little trial and error!
Thanks in anticipation!
@voyager:
A bit of basic html — < "i"> < "blockquote"> etc. Request try Google for more details
Roger Sir!! Thanks for the beacon.
@blake
OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmm
Sir,
If in New Delhi MacDonald’s Command Area please send me your address at langarcommander@gmail.com and kindly accept a Mac Donald’s Fish o Filet home delivered.
This is good – In National Interest
ALAN KOHLER
Visions of India
I have been in India for three days, so naturally I am now an expert. Actually reverse that: I have read a lot about this country and used to think I knew a fair bit about it. Now I realise I know nothing.
The place is quite shocking. The chaos, the anarchy on the roads, and above all the mess. There is no maintenance. All the buildings in Chennai except the Hindu temple are shockingly rundown; city roads are like country lanes; road barriers are corrugated iron; everywhere there are freeways and overpasses apparently permanently half-built.
And there are people out everywhere, all the time, walking about, riding bicycles, driving – but not working.
Those who are working seem mostly idle, waiting for customers who never come. Unemployment must be colossal, no matter what the official figures say. But the physical mess is merely a symptom of a deep governance malaise, which actually has enormous implications for the world.
This may be a superficial three-day view, but it is supported by a number of people I have spoken to: any global climate change strategy that relies on India introducing and then following a set of difficult carbon
emission protocols is doomed.
This place can’t fix its roads, or grow enough food to feed itself, let alone engage in a complex and painful process of greenhouse gas reduction.
More broadly, from reading newspapers and listening to people, I think it’s fair to say that the classic conditions exist in which the revolutions of the past took place: high and hidden unemployment, dysfunctional governance, poor infrastructure, rampant corruption and massively unequal distribution of wealth.
Indeed, several states are already run by Communist governments and Maoism is taking hold in the countryside. Terrorism from left-wing extremists is a constant problem.
And there is no sign whatsoever of any project among the political or bureaucratic elites to deal with the underlying causes of India’s problems. It seems to be entirely beyond them.
I am in Chennai for a conference jointly organised by the Australian High Commission and The Hindu newspaper. The overall theme of the conference is: “Sustaining Asia’s Growth: Challenges & Opportunities.”
There has been a lot of the usual talk about the Asian century and the growth of “Chindia” and more than a little quiet glee about the problems besetting the US financial system, along the lines I wrote about from
Singapore on the way here (Asia returns the favour, September 17).
But by the far the most interesting session was on the Thursday, entitled “The Food Debate”, and in particular a discussion about India’s food problems led by G Chandrashekhar, associate editor of the Hindu
Business Line, and Jayanta Roy Chowdhury, business editor of The Telegraph.
Immediately before that there had been an utterly extraordinary presentation about India’s mineral sector from Linus Lobo, from Mjunction Services Ltd, a marketing services joint venture between Steel Authority of
India and Tata Steel (although he says the views expressed were his own, not those of Mjunction).
It became clear as these three prominent and well-informed men spoke, that India is almost totally dysfunctional.
Its history, culture, constitution, political system, and the sheer size of its population are such powerful blocks against any kind of progress or development that the country simply does not work properly. And the people are getting very unhappy about this.
The session went more than an hour over time as increasingly passionate and upset members of the audience questioned the speakers about why India was so dysfunctional – why nothing gets done.
Linus Lobo opened his talk by saying that India has enough coal and other minerals for its own needs, but not only cannot mine enough for itself, it can’t even import enough for its needs because the ports are
clogged and there are no railways to transport it to power stations.
He said the only projects that get undertaken in India are brownfields. There are no greenfields projects … at all.
He explained, by the way, why the buildings are all so rundown: because tenants outnumber owners and therefore have more political power, so the laws protect tenants and they can’t be removed. Landlords have
no incentive to fix the houses.
The problem with developing India’s minerals wealth is similar to some of the difficulties in outback Australia – but times 100.
India also has an indigenous population and they are also the poorest people in the land. According to Linus Lobo they are malnourished, oppressed, but very aware of the wealth they are sitting on.
In the mineral rich districts the indigenous Indians don’t count in what are commonly called “vote banks” in the cities – groups of people whose votes are collected and sold to the highest bidder. They are therefore
disempowered and disgruntled (at least the members of the city vote banks get to sell their votes).
As Linus said: “you can grant a company a mining concession, but then someone has to actually go there and develop it. That is usually impossible.”
Linus actually lost the audience somewhat when he said that China solved a lot of these problems between 1950 and 1977 during and after Mao Tse Tung’s Great Leap Forward. The fact that the problems were solved by murdering millions of people caused some muttering and shifting in the seats.
In question time I asked Linus whether he was actually suggesting a Maoist revolution would be a good idea for India.
His reply? “No, I’m advocating proper social democracy. But the Maoist revolution is already happening in rural areas.” Gulp.
Similar themes emerged in the discussion about food. The problem is that per capita food production in India is declining. Although manufacturing and services industries are growing strongly, agriculture is stagnant. China has less arable land than India but produces three times as much food.
Although 600 million people depend on the land for their livelihoods, only 120 million are gainfully employed.
According to Mr Chandrashekhar, 80 per cent of the rural population are actually unemployed – they are on farms, but not doing anything.
Eighty per cent of farmers own less than two acres of land, which means there is absolutely no capital intensive farming.
What’s more property rights and land tenure are not clear, so 80 per cent of all legal cases in India are land disputes.
Investment in rural infrastructure is declining. The roads are largely impassable and supply chain infrastructure such as warehouses and silos are almost non-existent. The government is trying to get foreign direct investment into agriculture, but no companies are interested.
Rice production in India in 2007 was 93.3 million tonnes – exactly the same as in 2002. The population, meanwhile, has increased 10 per cent. All those at the conference agreed that India would soon be importing rice.
This despite the fact that the country gets 270 days of sunshine a year, has plenty of water, plenty of arable land and plenty of farm labour.
It is an unbelievable disgrace that this nation is not self-sufficient in food and that vast numbers of its people are malnourished. Part of the problem lies in the Indian Constitution, which gives the states responsibility for agriculture. They are all broke – deep in debt. All the money that is not siphoned off by corrupt officials goes to paying interest.
The message from this conference, and from my own brief observations, is that the India is many ways a wonderful country with the most charming people on earth, but its industrialisation is superficial, largely
illusory and fragile. It cannot be relied upon to persist.
On the other hand, India is also clearly brimming with talent. The young MBAs and other students at this conference clearly hold the key to the country’s future. If it was just up to them, that future would be
optimistic.
Collecting Martyr bits
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/india_knight/article4837668.ece
Now that Delhi is being inch_ed to match downtown Colombo, Kashmiri, mid East towns is there a case for better public screening of passers by the (para)military – inclusive say quick sanitary pants down checks of thin intense youth, mind scanner machines or even visible juden tags ?
http://wincoast.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79107
Miltary Chief’s Freudian Slip [ ..The Army is part of the Govt.. ]
Politicians get Delhi Belly.
Please write in to the TOI gents, ladies -
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/No_differences_over_Pay_Panel_Army/articleshow/3536938.cms
I’ve been following this blog for some time now. I don’t remember how I got here, presumably it was thru Navdeep’s blog. Somebody had emailed a link.
It’s been good going in parts. There are many of you who write sensibly, factually and maturely. Pragmatic does rake up a few serious issues. (even though he may not admit, I suspect I am right when I say that he loves stirring a hornet’s nest)
There a few who let it rip from the hip. Sure guys, vent your anger, but think before you start banging the keys.
I must admit I get a little turned off by all that name calling, especially when it comes from the uniformed fraternity. Babus and bloody civilians….Hey remember, Officer and a Gentleman and also a Lady. Also, all that talk about blood and sweat so we must get paid for it sounds a little over the top.
There are issues of training, procurement, promotions, command appointments etc which need to be discussed and debated by people within the armed forces. The armed forces leadership needs to get its act together. If it doesn’t, then people outside will step in. The media in our country loves digging, ‘cuz dirt sells.
@Kat:
Thanks for the kind words. Stirring the Hornet’s nest is unintentional. Honestly, I try and avoid topics that would do so. Many a times, the readers miss the larger point I make in the post and focus on the example. When I quoted Blake and Ronin in a post, I was talking about diverse viewpoints and how the services should preserve and celebrate that behaviour. Many readers just focused on the quotations from Ronin or Blake and missed the larger point.
Then there is this bias that this blog is anti-military. So everything gets painted a particular slanted way and I’ve got used to these personal attacks by now. Thanks for the very balanced comment.
I think this is indeed one of the best blogs I read before I leave for my daily grind
- it has all the ingredients of a pot boiler and stimulates thinking to charge us with fresh ideas and tickle our brain-and credit goes to the Master craftsman – Prags –
Cheers
Lets all order some Murree Beer and the Pizzas etc that are being offered free on this blog
@ Kat
I must admit I get a little turned off by all that name calling, especially when it comes from the uniformed fraternity. Babus and bloody civilians….Hey remember, Officer and a Gentleman and also a Lady.
Welcome to the civil (?) world where decency is a sign of weakness. When in Rome do what the Romans do
——– have an orgy.
@ menon
Decency – weakness
Dissent – Disrespect
This weird feeling in our nation starts all the way back from school. But I guess a gentle way of putting your point across firmly is to speak your mind, but mind how you speak.
Didn’t Patton say something of the sort ” if every one thinks the same way, nobody is thinking” (I’m awful at quotes).
There was a man called Ram. He had three children, say, Amar, Akbar and Antony. Ram was a rich man who owned land, commerce and industry. As his final moments came he wanted to make a peaceful division of his property between his sons. He called them over to his bed side and tells them:-
“My children! Time has come for me to pass over beyond. I wanted to be a good father trying to provide for you in all manner, material and mental. I love all the three of you but as is usual, I too have my favourites. My allocation of property is also in line with my preferences.
Amar, the ever obedient, the ever considerate son who has inherited the value of hard work from me, has remained the child of my choice who comes always first in my scheme things. He will be given all my agricultural land.
Akbar, the intelligent child amongst you, lacks some of the finer qualities of Amar but makes it up with his crafty and street smart ways. He remains my next choice after Amar. He will inherit the businesses and I wish that he looks after them well and expands them.
Antony! You idiotic and playful child! You have always caused grief and pain to both me and your late lamented mother. In spite of having such good elder brothers, it seems that you are yet to grow out of your childish pranks. It is generally believed that the youngest child is the apple of his father’s eye. Somehow, it is not so with you. You are my last choice always and every time…………………………..”)
and thus Ram kicked the bucket.
This entire conversation was heard by a beggar called, say krishna who was eavesdropping. The last rites of Ram were performed and then came the inevitable division of property. To their horror, Amar, Akbar and Antony found an army of beggars assembled for the division of property. Amar and Akbar had no problems as their inheritance was clear. When Antony moved forward to claim the balance of the property (which was already miniscule), he was met with a howl of protests from the beggars led by krishna. Their contention was that as Antony was the last choice of his father, and thus all others have a claim for what was left of the inheritance. The balance undisbursed portion, if any, can go to Antony after the claims of all “undy-fundy” fellows are met.
Sounds uncannily familiar, isn’t it. The poor Field Marshall to whom those similar sounding immortal quotes are being ascribed to was probably asked to lay down the inter-se priorities between the country, the men you command and yourself and very innocently gave the order of preferences. In his order of preferences the uniformed man stood ‘third’. Unfortunately, the interpretation has been literally taken as ‘last’ with every one else jumping and joining the queue as did those beggars. Hasn’t the time come to replace the ‘last, always and every time!’ to a much more logical ‘third, always and every time!’ Likely to provide intellectual clarity as to where we stand in the order of things.
@Pragmatic
Transactional Relationship
“Navy ….the only strategic defence service [among the three services] protecting and promoting Indian commercial interests overseas.”
Some thoughts on these lines. And since they perhaps digress from the spirit of the post (with which I agree wholeheartedly), the use of “Open Thread”.
• Only Strategic. The way I look upon strategy vs tactical is that both these aims have nothing to do with a force or a weapon system/platform. What solely matters is The Effect. An example; if during the cold war, say I delivered a 57 mm RP salvo from me AH1-S to take out the pumping stations that were to keep the Soviet armoured columns juiced up. It’d have stopped the Soviet Forces running through West Germany and pretty much achieved a strat aim. Ditto, when an SF team neutralizes the Enemy Leadership with a hard kill.
• In the above feasible example, a so-called tactical weapon – a rocket projectile delivered from a so-called tactical platform ‘ an AH’ operated by a so-called tactical arm ” US Army Avn” would have achieved a Strategic Aim, namely , stopping the Soviet Arm of Decision. Kapish??
• Protecting & Promoting Indian Commercial Interests Overseas. I’m sure the overseas part includes our interests overland also. But more importantly, the navy being the only service to do it is again not really correct. If protection is equal to saving is equal to evacuating, IAF Tranport aircraft protected several thousand Mallus in Kuwait. Off course, the navy is the most capable (present assets). But with the existing long range AAR capable strike aircraft, induction of C-130 capable of deploying SF, use of PSYOPS from SF assets (planned), a jt services op can make the present sit dramatic, and the future exciting.
Off course, whether the armed forces have exercised with such scenarios is another issue.
@Kat:
Thanks for your views. I had specifically restricted the Indian Naval presence to “protecting and promoting Indian commercial interests overseas.” — only commercial. The other two services can also play in role in securing other strategic interests but can do little to further commercial interests. It is another matter that the strategic and commercial interests may be closely aligned in today’s world so I might be making too fine a distinction. Point taken.
whether the armed forces have exercised with such scenarios is another issue.
That is the real question. Are we equipped, trained, geared and exercised for such scenarios (the ghosts of IPKF in Sri Lanka continues to haunt most of us even now when we talk of OOA operations)? More importantly, do we have the kind of political and military leadership with a strategic mindset that we need for such actions?
hi folks,,…the SAI on revised pay is out.. those interested may ask for the same from a link in the comments of navdeeps military blogs.. i think except for the lt col’s anomaly the rest of it is good…the pay of PBOR is also fairly addressed.. the col’s are the best of.. a col with 10 yrs in ci ops gets 85000;; fair enough i guess.. all those who are not satisfied can lump it.. let me compliment our chiefs for their efforts and hope the lt cols issue is addressed too.. cheers…
@all
Tony Curtis, Natalie Wood [ The Great Race ] remember ?
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article4907330.ece
@Stray Barks:
Thanks. Loved it. You have eclectic tastes, Sir.
Some Colonial stuff delete – seems waste of military manpower:
ADCs to Governors
Beating the Retreat
26 Jan marching practise(s)
PBG’s long maned* horses and riders
* commoner horses have theirs clipped
Now the next step after MNS, Sahayaks, PBORs etc is this trick—–
The government has rejected a Parliamentary Committee suggestion to raise the status of Defence Secretary to that of Cabinet Secretary rank to bring them on par with the chiefs of Army, Navy and Air Force.
They argument is that the CDS will be the Military Advisor whereas the Def Secretary will be the Principal Defence Adviser. Is it required?
Why have another stumbling block? In the past 60 years the Defence Secretaries have done nothing better than widen the gap and trust of the Armed Forces. Having another Loki in the chain will mean more chaos and mischief. The IAS should understand that they have lost the capability and the ability to render impartial and ethical functioning of most Govt. departments.
A Senior IPS officer has the following to say about the top Bureaucrats:
Weed Out Corruption
The success of S Chakravarthi’s case against the appointment of Anami Roy as director-general of the state police reinforces the need to weed out corrupt or inefficient officials before they reach senior ranks. The Union government does not accept IAS or IPS officers on deputation unless they are empanelled. Besides studying their service records, the boards entrusted with the task of empanelling All India Service Officers also receive inputs from the Intelligence Bureau and the CBI. No officer who is reputed to be corrupt or colourless can hope to get on the select list.
The armed forces have a very transparent and effective system of eliminating officials at different stages of their career so that they do not pick up rank if they are unfit for higher command.
Unfortunately, this practice has not been introduced in the civil services with the result that IAS and IPS officers are promoted according to seniority even when they are unfit to shoulder higher responsibility.
This is grossly unfair to the public which is entitled to good leadership and good governance. The state governments should not be saddled with the corrupt or the ineffective who are not accepted on central deputations. The states get over this predicament by creating superfluous posts at senior levels to accommodate them. This is effected at the cost of the exchequer which means public money.
All India Service rules empower the state governments to compulsorily retire All India Service officers at the age of 50 and then again at 55 years. This provision is hardly ever used. The state governments would not have faced a problem about appointment of the state DGP or chief secretary if incompetent or, more importantly, corrupt seniors had been eased out of service at the age of 50 or 55.
It is even more ironic if a corrupt officer is chosen to head the Anti-Corruption Bureau!( or appointed as the State Vigilence Commissioner) Political compulsions should not be allowed to play a part in such crucial appointments. We in the Public Concern for Governance Trust have decided to bring to the notice of the political leaders the public reputation of officers who aspire to such assignments.
Julio Ribeiro, MUMBAI
WISH THE INDIAN BUREAUCRACY A HAPPY DIWALI& HOPE THIS FESTIVAL OF LIGHTS GIVES THEM THE STRENGTH TO WORK FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE NATION WITHOUT INIQUITY
~Military vs Civil Governance ?
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20081027/main2.htm
And these silly empty ex ~ / brass vessels making a lot of noise in the chawnis and at India Gate Basmati Rice War Memorial (franchised) Delhi etc have cantonment competition now. Hope it is limited to marmalade, dahlia and may queen contests only.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20081027/nation.htm#14
Suicides and fratricides
I read one comment about how ppl are distressed abt their family affair and how civic administration is not responding. So the soldiers do what they do best, fire on themselves…
Interesting theory… Ofcourse there are officers of the army to defend the theory. Can any one answer these questions before these idiots take over the functions of civil adminstration….
(a) Why do ppl commit suicide in units and that too with bullet. Why do they not take some other way like cutting wrists, hanging from some rope, or taking tablets, or drinking phenyl or some other means…
(b) Why do only junior ppl take their life. Why only young lt cols, majs (no capts except women offrs) or women offrs of capt. Why no cols, brigs, maj gens, lt gens. Do all the higher ranks have life all sorted out for them, do they not have any family probs…
(c) why do only ppl in mixed units/staff duties take their lives. there was one singular case of megha razdan and ultimately it proved to be case of provocation. Did her unit offrs get united behind and therefore truth came out or was it something else.
@Sham
Are you serious about your queries or Joking or PLAIN STUPID.
Understand How Army functions and you will have all the answers.
racer
i am quite serious and i do know how army functions. It seems u believe in living in fools paradise.
Do google for randish Dogra, Sumit kohli, sushmita chakarvarty, etc etc…
Not even one of them left a last note for their family members…JUst by saying how army functions did not give any answer…
military definately needs support. but that support needs to be limited to their questioning of the supremacy of the IAS/IPS etc. military probably has not been able to identify the correct direction for their thrust for improvement. Pointing out skeletons in other’s cupboards will only invite scrutiny of your own skeletons, which in any case are in plenty. Remember, if you point a finger at your neighbour, there will be three pointing back at you supported firmly by the thumb. you cant castigate others for matters that make you fallible too. simple. More seriousness is required than simple bickering.
it is wrong to say that you dont need the bureaucracy to run the country. we definately need one for the comonality of administration. perhaps the correct question to be asked is why should only IAS/IPS form the higher bureacracy? or for that matter why should any particular service rule the roost in the higher administration of the country. Armed forces taking on the administration will be as bad. If not in the initial stages, then certainly subsequently shortly after assuming such responsibility. as they say power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The reasons for this argument are not far to seek.
Politicisation of the bureacracy and police are a reality today. this is not because these services have all people with low integrity or morals. it is because of the structure of these services and the supremacy accorded to them. It has crept into their structure that the number of recruits is actualy less than the totall number of highest level posts. that is to say if there are 50 IAS/IPS recruits in any year then there are 100-150 secretaries/DsGP. in their case the pyramid is actually inverted on i.e. it broadens towards the top. coupled with it are the time scale promotions. Now what does all this imply?
it implies that any one getting into IAS/IPS has to simply has to worry about keeping their ACRs perfect. Since there are ample vacancies, whether they have the abilty doesnt matter. Age permitting, they will in any case reach the top provided their service book is not red any where.That is why members of these services are all out trying to concentrate on keeping their records(i.e. their ACRs) healthy and avoiding slighest red remarks that will come in the way of their reaching the top for which all of them are destined in any case.
In practical terms this amounts to keeping their poitical masters in good humour right from the day they join these services. Its no surprise then that they display remarkable flexibilty and going to any depths to please their political masters. Over the period of time they master the flexibility and political-master-pleasing ability to the extent of being spinelessness and putting even the most sought after dildos to shame. They are simply transformed in to dildos – lifeless, flexible things that vibrate only to please their political masters!
Its no surprise then that you see in service IAS chaps resigning to contest elections, a fruitful culmination of a long “pleasing relationship” with political masters. Another out come is that every thing that is headed by the IPS has become DISASTER today. Be it the state police, the IB, CBI, CPMFs etc. These are besotted with multiple confusions arising out of the pleasing dildos heading these organisations having grown with a mindset of keeing their ACRs in order. Thats explains the dismal performances of these so called elite organisations and general degradation of administration and law & order.
What is the answer then? The Army? certainly not. The ills that have afflicted the IAS/IPS will take over any service that seeks to replace them. Perhaps a more practical solution will be in extending the scope of Central Staffing Scheme. Presently, Under this scheme officers are drawn from a number of services, shortlisted and selected for placement in various post of the central govt at junior and middle level administrative posts. Direct recruitment to the so called all India services can be dispensed with and the bureacracy can be selected on the lines of the central staffing scheme from amongst the best officers from ll the specialist services including the defence forces. It can be called the central bureaucracy or some such thing. Since there will be no direct recruitment and selection will be from all available services, only the very best in these services will be able to make it thus enriching the pool of officers selected on equitable basis that will run the matters if the country.
Seven World War I veterans here today:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-killing-fields-of-the-first-world-war-979730.html
There may be some in India too, but the IESL does not care. Sad. They claim the monies. May the self_service_ men rot in hell.
http://gconnect.in/gc/6cpc-matters/armed-forces-pay-new-pay-anomalies.html
In accordance with the recommendations of the IV Pay commission, officers of the Army, Navy, &Air Force were granted Rank pay in addition to the basic pay in the integrated pay scale of Rs 2300-100-3900-150-4200-EB-150-5100. CDA(O) while fixing the pay in the integrated scale created a ‘faux paus’ by deducting ‘rank pay’ from the total emoluments and then doing the pay fixation resulting in huge financial loss to the officers with cumulative effect on pay, DA, Pension, gratuity, commutation etc.
In the case of Maj AK Dhanapalan Vs Union of India in OP 2448/96, The Hon’ble High Court of Kerela allowed the plea of the officer and held that the deduction of the rank pay was not correct and directed to re fix the basic pay of the officer from 1.1.1986. Appeal filed by the Union of India before the larger bench of the High Court & SLP in the Hon’ble Supreme Court against the judgment was dismissed. Although Govt sanction to pay arrears to Maj AK Dhanapalan were issued, the benefit was not extended to similarly placed officers of the three Services. This is injustice to the affected officers.
Since pay fixation of the IV pay commission was wrong, the consequential pay fixation of V pay commission is also wrong, so also pension, commutation, leave encashment, gratuity, etc
4 CPC rank pay anomaly case, came up for hearing in Supreme Court on 03 Nov 2008. UPON hearing the counsel for the parties the Court made the following Order:-
” Learned counsel for the parties submit that the matter which are ready for hearing may be taken up for hearing ……………. Two weeks time is granted for filing rejoinder. Put up for final disposal thereafter.”
Racism in India. White House objects to Tata Truck slogans.
‘Buri nazar wala tera mooh kala’
Navy Goes Bananas ( ~ last para)
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/hes-not-bananas-just-first-to-grow-them-in-a-uk-home-998217.html
America is good for you:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5061441.ece
Hi guys,
just want to introduce myself on pragmatic.nationalinterest.in, hope this is the right category for that purpose.
Kind regards,
Max
Haig did not bother to reply:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/3399166/The-Unknown-Warrior-A-heros-return.html
Remembrance Sunday. The pictures do see.
eg The last Brit WW I veteran.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5118815.ece
Anyone attend the Remembrance function at the Delhi Cantt War Cemetery this year ?
Captain Frank Foley Link
Also pl. see books:
“Kristallnacht” by Anthony Read and David Fisher pub Random House, 1989 ISBN 0-8129-1723-5
“The Proudest Day”, India’s long Road to Independence by Anthony Read and David Fisher pub Jonathan Cape 1997. ISBN 0-224-03956-3
Will MMS’s Rambo Ramadoss similarly get you in the end ?
[Pensioners advised to fill option form correctly. The Govt pays you to your dying day so it theoretically owns you ]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/minette_marrin/article5162506.ece
Incrementally technology should make boots or wheels on ground obsolescent. Also no more recruitment, war cries, HR and invalidation.
http://www.gizmag.com/reinventing-the-wheel–the-airless-tire/10398/
The usual American bluster:
http://www.nydailynews.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=42988&start=40&tstart=0
Other Retired Colon _ els
Be happy ji
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article5293461.ece
Crime exists across the board in most of the nations – developed or otherwise. India is no exception to this rule. Criminal gangs, mafiosi etc are part and parcel of urban life. Most of the law abiding citizens never come across the seamier side of cities and their world happily proceeds without the baleful influence of crime in most of the cases. Mumbai, being the commercial centre and the financial capital as it is, will have a substantial component of the underworld. Be it protection rackets, unions, liquor, prostitution, betting, hawala, drugs, fences peddling stolen goods etc – there are always suppliers of such services as long as demand exists for them.
However, there are certain informal boundaries which are not stepped over even by most criminals – one such being anti-national activities such as terrorism. USA is a prime example when the police sought assistance of the underworld post 9/11 to bag anti-national elements. Unfortunately, in our country, an explosive cocktail has emerged where the law enforcers do not mind being on the take of terrorists. Let us look at the emerging story of the arrest of Illinois governor Blagojevich being arrested on corruption charges. The charges include influence peddling and even sale of the vacant seat for the US Senate which fell due because of the resignation of Mr Obama on his election to the highest office.
Apply the parallel to India. Can we ever imagine any one being arrested for such ‘crimes’ which are in reality the accepted norm in Indian politics. We may soon have a federal investigation agency patterned on the lines of FBI. But where is our John Edgar Hoover, the first director of FBI, who attained the status of demi-God, due to his single minded determination of making the FBI the most potent investigation agency. Leaving aside the dictatorial tendencies of the man, it is to his credit that FBI has attained the iconic status of today. The recruitment, training and manning policies of the FBI attract the best of graduates from the US and serving in the FBI is considered to be a matter of immense prestige. Follow the link given below to read the story of the arrest of a serving Governor of USA. A penny for the thoughts of our distinguished commentators?
Link
Sound Tactics –
[1] Recruiting Solomon to Judgement day – okay, it’s early days -
but this round to them ?
[2] What if this gent can sustain and goes under with a Jai Hind ?
See below:
* * * * *
Subject: Fast – sitrep
Date: Thursday, 18 December, 2008, 11:16 PM
Dear Colleagues,
The relay fast/hunger strike started on 16 Dec 2008 as
scheduled. It is continuing.
Sepoy Sulaiman Khan of the PIONEERS has voluntarily
converted protest in to ‘fast unto death’ from 0900 hours
on 17 Dec. Many others are keen to join but are being restrained.
The Defence Minister has been informed of Sepoy Sulaiman Khan’s
fast unto death. Knowing how the government machinery functions,
they might try to get some ESM issue a public statement denouncing
our methodology or the Movement. I do hope they do not succeed.
Best regards,
Lt Gen (Emeritus) Raj Kadyan, PVSM, AVSM, VSM
Chairman IESM
262, Sector-17A, Gurgaon- 122 001
Tele: 91+124-4015262 91+ 9811226676
@Pragmatic:
For quite some time you and The Acorn have advocated that India participate with armed forces in the US led GWOT (Afghanistan edition). The reasoning as I understood went something like this
“Pressure in Afghanistan would force Pakistan to concentrate on its Northern Border. This in turn would make it difficult for Pak Armed forces to support militants along the LOC. India needs to do its bit etc etc”
In light of the US NSA’s statement on Pakistan being the route to solving Afghanistan, I am curious to know what your views are?
I have my position on this subject. Will reserve it for now.
And no I don’t play poker very well.
regards
@Pragmatic:
Some time back The Acorn had blogged on “The little revolutions in India’s military affairs”
I bring this here since I find that there are no takers for a discussion on this subject there. And you said that this was
“some space .. to share .. thoughts, ideas and any other views .. with the PE community”
So if you read the post we could share ideas.
My take is that the essay made interesting reading. But, my understanding of RMA is that the article has precious little to do with it. I would love to elaborate on Military Revolutions and Revolutions in Military Affairs but fear that would sound like a discourse.
The central challenge was off course very easy to identify. The Acorn then mentioned doctrine, equipment and manpower in one single breath. Phew!!!
IMHO that if we evolve a contemporary doctrine, lay down command and control structure, raised a force structure and equip it and train it, we will have a spanking new force. To do anything more, there is very little left, right? (sorry couldn’t resist that dig)
Off course GOI would have to state its national objectives before this. (And pigs will be …..)
But from the Acorn’s post and quite a few of yours do I infer that our armed forces are in shambles right now? I mean tactically and professionally.
There are serious issues on leadership, morals, C&C,… I’ll reserve my views on them till some time.
I must hasten to add that perhaps that is the only thing that I have a problem with in the essay. The fact is that precious few people understand Military Revolutions & RMA and even fewer have thought of its relevance to the Indian Armed Forces.
Boxers Box…
regards
@Kat #116:
On Afghanistan, all of us at INI have written about it at our blogs and Pragati ran a cover story on the subject as well. These posts below and the multiple links within should help clarify our position.
Link 1, link 2, link 3
@Kat #118:
I think Nitin had suggestively and imaginatively titled it as The Little Revolution in India’s Military Affairs. It had little to do with RMA, as you and I understand the term since the turn of the century. His essay was more of an balanced overview of the services for a serious Pakistani journal.
To answer your other questions. Of course, there are shortcomings within the GOI. Huge ones and there are many who are highlighting them. But there are shortcomings with the services, which tend to be ignored in the Holy Cow mode. We should seek improvement in the services.
If 10+ terrorists have gotten away from a 3-tier security cordon of the army, how many will question it. Who will harp on one army officer and 4 soldiers being kidnapped by NSCN-IM rebels. All media, as it turns more jingoistic, will talk about army running gas stations but will not venture into other stories.
Nothing seems to be easier than seeing someone whom you can help but not helping.
I suggest we start giving it a try. Give love to the ones that need it.
God will appreciate it.
Were the Babus over quick in asking the Military to bugger off and beat their Retreat elsewhere – closeby – near ‘their’ Jantar Mantar sham..iana perhaps ?
Methinks they were delighted that Venktaraman shuffled off his mortal coil JIT.
Way to Go — Link