GOK – 5 (Services and self deceit)
Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. ~Demosthenes
The major headlines in the media have been about the NSG meet at Vienna. The proceedings and the machinations of various NSG member nations must be at the top of the PM Manmohan Singh’s agenda. While the deal has the political capital of the PM and the UPA at stake, there is the wrath of the Kosi river in Bihar that also needs immediate and continous attention at the highest levels. Kashmir still continues to boil with lakhs on the streets of Srinagar yesterday. Amidst these pressing priorities confronting the PM and his cabinet,
Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta, in his capacity as the chairman of the chiefs of staff committee (CoSC), made a representation to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Thursday about their grievances with the August 29 gazette notification of new pay scales.
‘‘Apart from briefing the PM on his recent visits to Japan and South Korea as well as the rescue operations in flood-hit Bihar, Admiral Mehta presented a written brief to PM about the demoralisation in the three Services due to the new pay scales,’’ said a source.
To ensure that this unprecedented action is not seen as mutinous in any way, the armed forces have reposed their ‘‘full confidence’’ in the Union Cabinet in the latest letter written to defence minister A K Antony by the CoSC chairman.[TOI]
The Indian Express adds:
The Navy chief handed over a detailed representation to the Prime Minister highlighting the perceived anomalies and once again sought the intervention of the Union Cabinet to resolve the issues.
The incident may lead to a little embarrassment for the Defence Ministry that had earlier raised objections over a letter written by the Army Chief to President Pratibha Patil over the pay panel.
The three service chiefs believe and have told the PM that they do not have faith in the bureaucrats to resolve their grouses against the SCPC. Will it make a difference? If one goes by the meeting between former Army chief General Ved Malik and the Prime Minister in May this year, it seems unlikely. Here is what the PM had told General Malik [Two bureaucratic responses] then:
I [General Malik] said that this matter now needs to be handled at political level and should not be left to the bureaucrats. Armed forces personnel no longer have confidence in the Review Committee of bureaucrats, particularly when this Committee does not have representation from the armed forces despite repeated requests made within the Government and outside. The fact that the PM had passed this problem to such a Committee had not gone well with military personnel. It had strengthened the feeling that the status of the armed forces stands eroded more than ever before, military leadership has no say, and the Government continues to be insensitive to their problems and is unlikely to give them justice. The military should have had a separate pay commission, as in other countries. At this stage, the PM remarked that the Defense Secretary will represent the armed forces. I reiterated that when the armed forces did not have confidence in the bureaucracy, how can he represent them and get them justice. This conversation led to the PM stating that this is the institutionalized manner in which the Government exercises civilian control over the armed forces.
Will the government cave in under pressure and relent to these demands of the service chiefs? If one goes by more prominent political agitations, such as the Gujjar reservations, most of them end in compromises where the agitators gain little except hollow promises and reams of paper drafted in convoluted bureaucratese. No one can deny that the political weight of these demands by the services is much lesser than other political agitations. The government has already had a Committee of Secretaries review the demands of the SCPC (mainly to address the concerns of civilan employees) and is thus likely to ask the services to go to the “institutionalised mechanism” of the anomalies committee.
It is easy to get carried away with high strung emotions but all of us need to remember that optimism can send one down paths that ultimately fail, while pessimism can keep one off of paths that may be fruitful. It needs a sense of balance and perspective to sift the wheat from the chaff. One knows from experience that if something is “revolutionary”, it is most likely hype; however it does no harm to keep an eye on it, just in case. Before evaluating anything, one needs to think about what one “wants to be true”, so that one can keep his/her own biases on the top of the mind while evaluating evidence [evidence is pure facts, not opinions].
One final thought. The best place to learn, on any subject, is to look at unpopular sources of information. If you read what every one else reads, you will think like other people think. Relish the obscure, the contrarian and the unpopular, because they can seed your thoughts with unique ideas. Always keep a skeptical eye and remember that the mainstream media is frequently telling untruths, even if they don’t always know it themselves. This is the key to ensuring that while none of us can be right all the time, one can be right most of the time.
@pragmatic…”.This is the key to ensuring that while none of us can be right all the time, one can be right most of the time. ” well said Mr Pragmatic., [for a change].. As a responsible forum hoister, you must ensure that un -warranted discussions on the military top brass must be censored. At least now guys who blog on your site,[ and call their cribs as constructive criticism] ,must have realized the efforts being put in by the chiefs to ensure and maintain the dignity of the armed forces.. Lets us now not encourage the Majors to cry for their inclusion into the pay-band 4. Lets be assured that the defence forces have got a fair deal… love to all.. peace be with the forces …
Some excellent work has gone on in this blog. I have been reading up this blog and would like to add my thoughts with respect to SCPC.
If you look at the wordings of SCPC carefully, there was a VRS package built in, however the government has negated this proposal. Further the government has also approved the proposal for retirement reduction from 33 years to 20 years. This brings us to a peculiar situation . This implies that all people can retire after 20 years effectively if they can be relieved by their appointing authority , again the wordings of SCPC.
From a purely financial outlook
If we assume that a typical officer does not make it beyond lt col ( AVSC 2 not considered), a few calculations for the mathematically minded would help
Assuming PB3 scale ; Not assuming any DA , necessary calculation can be done accordingly.
Pay = Basic Pay + Grade Pay + MSP
=33,300+7600+6000= 47000 (Lt col earning 16300 +1600 in 20 th year prerevised scale multiplied by 1.86)
Gratuity 16.5 * Pay= 775000
PF = as per your savings
GIS = 4 to 5 lakhs
Commutation of pension = Basic *0.50*0.4*12* 9 (9 is commutation factor based on age of 42)
Commuted amount = Rs 10, 00, 000/-
Leave Encashment = 300 days
= 4,70,000
Pension =0.5 *Pay*(0.6)
=14000
Total amount = Rs 26.5 lakh without considering your PF Assume 3.5 lakh PF , therefore total is Rs 30 Lakh
At 8% interest this will give you
Interest of Rs 20,000 per month and the pension. Should say a handsome amount.
Also people should remember that recruitees after 2004 , (not applicable to defence employees and railways) do not get a pension. they will have to wait for the New pension scheme (NPS ) to do wonders for them, of course it is contributory in nature.
The sad part is that there is no VRS, this will definetely hurt the economy in the long run . Almost 60 to 70 % of the people are outside the NPS , this will only hit the fiscal situation.
In my opinion we should have a system of 5 years as sign on only , if further person wants to continue he gets a bonus . The bonus should be attractively placed to ensure his interest in continuing .This is a huge incentive and also a NPS scheme wherein the government contributes to the individual’s pension kitty. This will ensure a young profile for the armed forces . There could be other options, like a weightage after 10 years service for entry into IIMs etc. People after 15 years can be given preference into defence PSUs / private companies which are into defence production etc.
Of course the training will have to be tailored such that it extracts the maximum output with minimum input , we cannot have a training system which tries to make a general/ marshal/ admiral out of every body in a course. The training should be relevant so that he can be of use not only to armed forces but also for his own self so that his oppurtunity outside is not diminished.
Pension should be paid only for people who continue in service beyond 15 years and will start accruing to the person after he is 50years.
The key is of course managing the whole system and the bonuses which kick in and the benefits which accrue to him/ her . Of course there could be further modification , like a common entrance exam as one of the blog member had suggested with everybody joining the forces and then getting into respective IAS/IPS/Central services.
Any takers?
brilliant posts all of the above
Dear Pragmatic,
Since the prime minister would not listen to us,that leaves us with just one option……muscle flexing??????I have not understood what’s that you want to convey.can you tell me what options do we have left?You seem to indulge in “verbal gymnastics” without talking straight.According to you,the top brass is the root of all evil and babus are the good guys…
All I can say is that” It’s not that you are wrong,it’s just that you don’t get it”…….
@steelshark:
I have not understood what’s that you want to convey.
WYSWYG – What You See is What You Get!
According to you,the top brass is the root of all evil and babus are the good guys…
Where did I say that? You are putting words into my mouth. It is a combination of “ignorant bureaucrats, corrupt politicians and an inept top brass”. The onus of reform and good of any organisation lies with its leadership. If things are wrong within the services today, the military leadership has to apportion a major share of the blame.
I do not look at it as “us versus them”. The bureaucrats are not spending all their time working on how to reduce the salary and status of service officers, as in being painted in many forums. It is like Pakistan claiming that all India is trying to do is wipe it off the map, whereas India is more worried about economic reforms, nuclear deal etc. to concentrate all its energies on Pakistan. That may sound harsh, but then it is WYSWYG!
@pragmatic
“..that the mainstream media ”
More irritation. Enough no more -
Milveterans plan to demo / heckle Guptaji Chief Editor of the Indian Express at his office tomorrow, New Delhi Monday, 08 Sep 1300 hrs.
Nicer to sue him or the Press Council ?
Two more inputs on the SCPC:
#1- On April 1, the CPI(M) adopted a resolution about the 6th Pay Commission at its 19th Party Congress in Coimbatore. Among other things, the resolution observed that “… jawans and lower grade employees in the defence services have been discriminated against in relation to the increase given to officers.”
#2 – Unhappy with modified Sixth Pay Commission award, taxmen have pointed out discrepancies in the revised pay scale and have sought Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s intervention in the matter.
Pointing out the discrepancies in the revised pay scale, income tax officials said when compared with their counterparts in some other departments, it amounted to virtually “lowering of status” of senior revenue officials.[Hindu]
@pragmatic
“lowering of status of senior revenue officials.“
This is delicious. If read in Lawrence James book ‘ The Making and Unmaking of British India’ pub 1997 Litle Brown quote pg 152 : ‘ The Marquess of Welesley, who laid the foundations of the new administration, insisted that officials should be “ allowed the means of acquiring a competent fortune“ with which they could return home. He had in mind money saved from generous salaries and allowances rather then the profits of corruption. … In 1795, Thomas Munro told his father that it was common for Collectors to collude with Indian tax farmers and pocket revenues’
Was always low.
@PRAGMATIC,
Thanks for the reply.Can you tell me who is responsible for the present fiasco wherein Lt Cols have been placed in PB 3?Is it the army top brass?Or is it the political leadership?As far as I know(I may be wrong,do correct me if I am) this discrepancy was non existent in the original recommendatioms of the pay commission and was introduced after the review committe was set up.
Any injustice has been meted out to the Lt Cols and equivalent of teh armed forces.and some one is responsible,,,,,,who is it? Is it a combination of “ignorant politicians,corrupt bureaucrats and an inept top brass” to borrow your words?or is it the babus who goofed it up?
@SteelShark:
As far as I know(I may be wrong,do correct me if I am) this discrepancy was non existent in the original recommendatioms of the pay commission and was introduced after the review committe was set up.
No. It was there in the original recommendations of the SCPC. The history for this predates the IV CPC wherein the services claimed victory for getting the additional “Rank Pay”. We will not visit that now for various reasons. If you read BeeCee’s guest post, you may catch the hint.
@PRAGMATIC,
Nice of you to reply.As far as I know,the issue here is placing of Lt Cols in PB3 instead of PB4.Correct me if I am wrong,but in the initial report submitted by the SCPC,this anomaly did not exist.It was introduced at a later stage by the so called review committe.
So who is to blame for this fiasco?The troika of ” Inept top brass,corrupt politicians and ignorant babus”? Or just the babus who constituted the review committe?
As for my puting words in your mouth,Well,as a neutral observer,the feeling I get is that you have been treating babus with kid gloves.Any ways,I am awaiting your reply on my question
@SteelShark:
As far as I know,the issue here is placing of Lt Cols in PB3 instead of PB4.Correct me if I am wrong,but in the initial report submitted by the SCPC,this anomaly did not exist.It was introduced at a later stage by the so called review committe.
As I had said in the earlier reply, “NO”. The original SCPC report very much had the Lt Colonels and equivalents in PB-3. In fact, it had placed Colonels and Brigadiers also in PB-3. (Para 2.3.14, Page 77 of the SCPC report)
…as a neutral observer…
You are not related to the bureaucrats or the defence services in any way. That’s a tad surprising, considering your queries so far.
Dear Prag
I know I will sound out of place here, but you won’t regret going through an article “In Defence of the Armed Forces” by Lt Gen Ashok Joshi, posted just an hour back at http://in.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/08guest.htm. Has lot of depth in it, you just need a little patience to go through it, as, its a little long.
@Common man,
Thanks. However I have already spoken about it it on the Open Thread, especially the conclusion.
May I request you to kindly use the Open Thread post for all off-topic comments. It helps all readers if we are slightly better organised.
@ Prag
Understood (BTW How do you create Smileys?)
points to note :
warrant of precedence
22. Deputy Ministers in State outside their States
23. Army Commanders (GsOC-in-C)/ VCOAS and equivalent in other services/ Chief Secretaries to States within their States/ Members of Minority Commission / Secretaries to Govt of India/ Secretary to President/ Secretary to PM/ Secretary Rajya Sabha and Lok Sabha/ Solicitor General
24. Officers of the rank of Lieutenant General or equivalent
25. Additional Secretaries to Govt of India/ Addl Solicitor General / Advocate Generals of States/ Chairman Tariff Commission/ Chief Secretaries outside their States/ Director CBI/ DG BSF/ DG CRPF/ Director IB/ Lt Governors outside their UTs/ Members UPSC/ PSOs of Armed Forces of the rank of Major General and equivalent
26. Officers of the rank of Major General and equivalent / Joint Secretary to Govt of India
27. Vice Chancellors of Universities
28. Commissioners of Divisions within their respective charges
29. Brigade Commanders within their respective Charges
30. Brigadiers/ Inspector General of Forests/ Inspectors General of Police
31. Commissioners of Divisions outside their charges
32. Secretaries to State Governments
33. Colonels/ Accountants General/ Chief Conservator of Forests/ Chief Engineers/ Inspectors General of Prisons/ Members of ICS (now known as IAS) and Indian Political Service (now Indian Foreign Service) with 23 years standing
34. Controller Military Accounts and Pensions (now CDA)
35. Commissioners of Income Tax/ Deputy Commissioners within their districts
36. District and Session Judges within their charges
37. DIG of Police
38. Lieutenant Colonels/ Conservators of Forests/ IAS and Foreign Service officers with 18 years standing/ Superintending Engineers
39. Excise Commissioners/ Registrar of Co-operative Societies
40. Deputy Commissioners of Districts / District and Sessions Judges / Superintendents of Police of Districts within their charges (also now known with variable nomenclature as DCP/ SSP in certain States)
41. DIG of Prisons/ Officers of other Class I Services and Provincial Services with 20 years standing
42. Majors/ IAS and Foreign Service officers with 12 years service/ SPs and DCPs with 15 to 20 years service
43. Asst Commissioners of Income Tax/ Officers of ClassI and Provincial Services with 10 years standing
44. Divisional Engineers/ Divisional Forest Officers/ Executive Engineers/ Superintendents of Central Jails
The pre SCPC ranks and pay scale of the Coast Guard are as follows:
Assistant Commandant: Rs 8,000-Rs 13,500
Deputy Commandant: Rs 10,000-Rs 15200
Commandant (JG): Rs 12,000-Rs 16,500
Commandant: Rs 14,300-Rs 18,300
Deputy Inspector General: Rs 16,400-Rs 20,000
Inspector General: Rs 18,400-Rs 22,400
Director General: Rs 22,400-Rs 24,500
ARMED FORCES PRE SCPC
Capt. Rs. 9600-300-11400 + RANK PAY 400
Major Rs. 11600-325-14850 + RANK PAY 1200
Lt. Col. Rs. 13500-400-17100 + RANK PAY 1600
Col. Rs. 15100-450-17350 + RANK PAY 2000
Brig. Rs. 16700-450-18050 + RANK PAY 2400
just to put the facts up here…
6 reasons why one choose to become an army officer
1. he hate to rest
2. he had already enjoyed his life in childhood.
3. he loves tension
4. he does not want to spend time with his family
5. he wants to take revenge from him self
6. he loves to work on Sundays and holidays
It is being circulated in public interest
IN ADDITION TO THE PREVIOUS POST
THE FOURTH PAY COMM CARVED RANK PAY OUT OF YOUR BASIC.
SO WHEN THE FIFTH PAY COMM INCREASED THE BASIC FOR ALL BY 3.6 TIMES, THE RANK PAY INCREASED ONLY 2 TIMES THUS A LT COL LOST OUT ON 1000/- PM ON THE RANK PAY. ALSO A LT COL RANK WAS ACHIEVED AT 18 YRS OF SERVICE ie BASIC OF 4000/-, THIS WHEN MULTIPLIED BY 3.6 TIMES MAKES IT 14400, WHEREAS THE MIN BASIC FOR LT COL WAS 13500/-.
TO CALCULATE OTHERWAY
THE RANK PAY WAS CARVED OUT OF BASIC PAY,MISCHIEVOUSLY, BY THE FIN MIN BABUS. POINT ACCEPTED BY SUPREME COURT.
SO THE BASIC PAY OF A LT COL, WHEN MOST OF THE SENIOR LT COLs JOINED THE ARMY, WAS ADVERTISED TO BE 4000+800(RANK PAY).
THE FIFTH PAY COMM MULTIPLIED ALL BASIC PAY BY 3.6, HENCE THE LT COL’s BASIC SHOULD HAVE BEEN = 4800 X 3.6 = 17200.
BUT IT WAS REDUCED TO 13500+1600 = 15100.
EVEN IF WE TAKE THE MINM SERVICE TO BECOME LT COL AS 16.5 YEARS AS IN CASE OF ARMY/PILOTS, STILL THE DOWNGRADATION WAS CLEAR AND NOW SPC WANTS TO DOWNGRADE YOU FURTHER.
YOU ALL SHOULD GO TO COURT FOR REDUCING YOUR PAY AND STATUS BY EVERY PAY COMM AND ALSO FOR LURING YOU BY WRONGFUL ADVERTISING.
@ anonymous
The WoP is for the birds. There was a Jul 1980 WoP which gives out the Status of Majors (equated with SPs within their area and Senior when the SP is outside his area of jurisdiction) and Cols (equated with Commissioners of Police Mumbai, Delhi, Madras, and Calcutta). The letter also very clearly states that the badges of rank are no method to equate WoP. i.e. a DIG may wear Brigs badges of rank but he is Junior to a Col. It further states that in any function if the WoP (as stated in the letter) is not followed then the Army official may politely decline attendance. This letter originated from Army AGs Branch (Ceremonials & Welfare) and was signed by General Sinha.
While on deputation with the Coast Guard I objected to being placed under a Comdt of the Air Sqn for the following reasons.
a) He had just about 600 hrs compared to my 2700 hrs and MG status on heptrs.
b) He had 13 years service compared to my 17.
c) When the DG CG was visiting the CG Air Station we were asked for form in the order of CG – Navy – Army. I told them that the order is as per seniority of Service i.e. Army – Navy – CG.
d) The Wop issued by Army HQ (cited above) states that badges are not to be taken for ascertaining seniority i.e. a Comdt may wear badges like Cdr but is not equal to a Lt Col. The CG was then governed by CCS (Central Civil Services) Rules.
I was promptly attached to Com CG East. I was there for about four months pending reversion.
Now comes the best part.
The CG guys were okay. They were nice to me and never showed any malice. In fact my Sqn mates provided all assistance till I was dined out & left Station. It was Army HQ that played villain. A Col who came down had some nasty things to say and did some pretty smutty bitching. The CG guys were quite taken aback with his behaviour. Army HQ would not even reply to my queries. I had even written to the VCOAS who happened to be the Col Comdt but even he chose to remain silent.
After reverting I asked AGs Br (C&W) for a clarification whether the ‘Policy’ letter had been superseded. The reply I got was hilarious. They said that since these were guidelines they should be treated as such. When officers do not adhere to policy letters from Army HQ there can be a Court Martial but when it is such a letter, it is a ‘guideline’.
When I put in my papers I was told there was a gap in my ACR. I had gone down to MS Br and some Major who thought he was Gods own (you know what) told me that my release papers would be returned if the gap was not covered. I was leaving and here was this pongo who wanted a gap to be covered. I went down to National Stadium and met the CG Air Sqn CO who had been posted to the CG HQ. He was extremely nice. He immediately spoke to Com CG East and found out the present address of the then Com CG. We spoke to him on phone and sent him the ACR initiated by the CG CO. The Commodore was also helpful and asked me whether he should write anything so that it would help me. He dispatched the same within a day by speed post. I took the ACR to the joker at MS Br but Mr. Hoity-toity gave me some bull about confidential documents must come through official channels blah – blah. I promptly went back to the CG HQ and the ACR was sent by DR.
In this episode you would find that the role of Gabbar was played by officers posted at the Army HQ in their individual capacity as saviours of the system. Today many of them may be in Civvy Street and are victims of their short sightedness.
Pragmatic is bang on when he says —– GOK – SERVICES & SELF DECEIT
@pragmatic,
As for your comment about my not being related to defence forces or babus,
well,I would leave the guesswork to you
One question for you……As you said rightly,Lt Cols were placed in PB3 initially.But were the civilian equivalents also placed in the same pay band in the initial report?was there any reference to the pay of civil services in the report? There certainly was a mention of what each rank of services would get in the report…
plz clarify…………
@SteelShark:
You may like to read the report yourself to seek clarifications. The original SCPC report is available here[pdf]. Happy reading!
@pragmatic
I did go through the report.Thanks for clearing my doubts.You do have a point or two.
@ALL,
It has been dissappointing that the Lt Cols have not been placed in PB4.What are we planning to do in case this does not come through?wait for SCPC(seventh pay commission?) ?
The army is fighting a war.The enemy here unfortunately is no foriegner but the unholy troika(as pragmatic puts it).The nation takes us for granted because we do not have powers to influenc people’s lives.Remember when the corrupt IPS guys asked for a pay hike and demanded that their status w.r.t the IAS babus be maintained no body had a problem.Gupta ji of express did not even bother about it.
If you think the public is with you,think again…They need someone to kick them and then they will worship them.The same case with media..
The reason why we are being illtreated is that we do not stick to our guns.We creat some ruckus and then retreat.Hope that this time we stand united and fight till the end
@ Steel Shark
@ Pragmatic
In the original SPC recoomednation Lt Cols and equi were proposed this
Pre-revised scale Rs.13500-400-17100 (Rank Pay 1600)
Revised PBand PB-3 + Grade Pay + MSP= Rs.15600-39100 + Rs.6600 +Rs.6000
As per pre revised pay scale they fall into the bracket of Civ equivalent of S-25 ( with basic apy of Rs 15100-)
So SPS recognised Lt Cols and equi Basic Pay as 15100(on adding BP and RP) and fixed them in running pay band of Basic Rs 26280/- but gave them Grade Pay of only 6600/- ( which was equiv to S -21 band of Civilians)
Now once the report was made public then Armed Forces made noise about Less Garde Pay and hence lowering of status( As per SPC status equi is not by Pay Band but Grade Pay)
Govt agrred but when cabinet approved Pay Commission. But
lt col had grade pay of only rs 7600/- and govt smartly shifted civ of s-21, s-22 also to higher grade pay of 7600. secondly, it also enhanced s-24 gp civ (from grade pay 7600) to grade pay 8700 (that means to pb-4). this s-24 gp happens to be junior grade than lt col who was equivalent to s-25 basic pay..
So originally it was Goof up( dunno intentional or not) of Grade Pay and later Shifted to PB4
Prakash
@Prakash:
Let me play the devil’s advocate and argue against your contentions.
In the original SPC recoomednation Lt Cols and equi were proposed this
Pre-revised scale Rs.13500-400-17100 (Rank Pay 1600)… they fall into the bracket of Civ equivalent of S-25 ( with basic apy of Rs 15100-)
Rank pay for military personnel was to give an edge and that edge has been maintained by Military Service Pay Pay as per the SCPC. So the starting basic remains at 13500/- and not 15100/-.
The SCPC report (Paragraph 2.3.10 and 2.3.12) also says:
…fixed them in running pay band of Basic Rs 26280/- …
It only placed them in PB-3. It doesn’t explicitly mention any such figure in the report. Can you provide me the reference?
but gave them Grade Pay of only 6600/- (which was equiv to S -21 band of Civilians)
Refer Rank pay above.
Armed Forces made noise about Less Garde Pay and hence lowering of status( As per SPC status equi is not by Pay Band but Grade Pay)
The Cabinet has clarified that the grade pay will determine the status only within the cadre and not between the cadres.
lt col had grade pay of only rs 7600/- and govt smartly shifted civ of s-21, s-22 also to higher grade pay of 7600. secondly, it also enhanced s-24 gp civ (from grade pay 7600) to grade pay 8700 (that means to pb-4). this s-24 gp happens to be junior grade than lt col who was equivalent to s-25 basic pay…
The basic presumption of Rank Pay being counted towards the Basic Pay, when that edge has been maintained via the MSP, is the cause of this error. If you can catch hold of someone, catch the guys who placed the case of the services with the IV CPC and goofed it up. The current crop is only paying for their foolhardiness.
Let me clarify (before I am personally attacked) that this is just an academic argument. There are other reasons why Lt Colonels should be in the higher pay band and they have been made rather cogently by Navdeep. I just hope that the services pay commission cells are not making Prakash’s arguments, but basing it on Navdeep’s contentions.
@ Pragmatic
Dear Sir, Let me bring out two things very clearly. I am neither a logistician nor an advocate. Whatever I wrote was not a contention but it was submission in response to talk abt PB 3 and PB 4. Now let me again submit something in response to your note.
(a) I have spent almost 19 years in service and till date nobody has been able to sort out ot solve this chaos of Basic Pay = Rank Pay so lets not try it out now( that too when it has been phased out in 6SPC)..
(b) …fixed them in running pay band of Basic Rs 26280/- …It only placed them in PB-3. It doesn’t explicitly mention any such figure in the report. Can you provide me the reference?…………………
It has been brought out clearly in SPC reccomendations where in for a Lt Col Revised stage in Pay band 3 is Rs 26280/-. Table 2.3.1 – Fixation of Officers in Defence Services (other than those
belonging to MNS) in the revised Pay Bands
————————————————————-
Pre-revised Pay in the scale – 13,500
- Rank pay 1,600
- Revised Stage in revised Pay Band 26,280
Grade Pay 6,600
Military Service Pay 6,000
Total Revised Pay 38,880
————————————————————
So my point is that even if I dont consider my Rank pay still my Basic pay is Rs 13500/- so how is it that 6 PC fixed me in Grade Pay of Rs 6600/- which as per SSPC para 2.2.18 was given civilan with basic of 12000-375-16500 (S-21).
2. And now when Lt Cols grade pay was enhanced to 7600 then what was the need to shift both S-21 and S-22 also to 7600/-
prakash
@Prakash:
It has been brought out clearly in SPC reccomendations where in for a Lt Col Revised stage in Pay band 3 is Rs 26280/-. Table 2.3.1 – Fixation of Officers in Defence Services (other than those belonging to MNS) in the revised Pay Bands
Point conceded. You were right about it and my contentions were partially wrong about MSP covering for the rank pay. Your reply helped me find the underlying logic of SCPC. Thanks for forcing me to go into greater details.
The logic of MSP, as per the SCPC, is actually about the edge in payscales provided to the service officers in the Third CPC, because they had disbanded the Special Disturbance Allowance and merged it as an edge in the basic pay for service officers. As per Para 2.3.10 of SCPC:
(ii)Special Disturbance Allowance was given to the Defence Forces officers in 1950 as a temporary measure to improve their earnings without interfering with the pay scales introduced as per the recommendations of the Post War Pay Committee which had brought down the pay scales of many Indian Commissioned Officers (ICOs).
(iii) An edge was provided by the Third CPC in the Defence Forces officer’s pay scales because the Commission had converted the then existing Special Disturbance Allowance into an edge in starting pay vis-à-vis the civilian group A officers.
(iv) The Fourth CPC had continued this edge in devising the running pay band for Defence Forces officers up to the rank of Brigadier and had revised the integrated pay scale taking in account the time taken for promotion to different pay scales. The element of rank pay was carved out of the pay scales so revised after giving the edge vis-à-vis civilian group A officers.
(v) The Fifth CPC maintained this edge even though it reverted from running pay bands to individual pay scales for various officers’ ranks in the Defence Forces.
When the edge in basic pay, that had been provided to compensate the loss of Special Disturbance Allowance, has been restored as the MSP, the basic pay equivalence of Vth CPC doesn’t hold good any more. If you reduce the edge provided and then equate, you will come to the same conclusion as the SCPC (S-21 for Lt Colonels).
Else it is the case of double benefit for service officers. An edge given earlier to compensate for the loss of a special allowance (Special Disturbance Allowance) in the basic pay is allowed to continue, even when that allowance has now been restored as the Military Service Pay.
Correct me how I am wrong in deciphering the SCPC logic. The next question is how do we counter this? Any ideas!
@ Pragmatic
In the ‘Visitants annotate…….’ some post are marked ‘ in red.
Makes me feel hungry.
Reminds me of the chiili mark in front of Schezuan dishes.
Hungry in the morning.
Pizza chalega.
@menon:
In the ‘Visitants annotate…….’ some post are marked ‘ in red.
Incidentally, that little red arrow is for hyperlinked items. Need to sort out the code to get it at the right place & colour. Thanks.
Pizza chalega.
IMO that it is high time I got Pizza Hut to start advertising on this blog. They seem to be the “flavour” of the week here.
The Supreme Commander of the Indian Armed Forces has got a hike in her salary.
Will she accept it or will she keep up the Traditions of the Armed Forces and decline the award till the Safety Welfare and Honour of her Command is upheld.
Or will Madame grab the goodies & say “Burp’.
GOK!
[...] a commenter, Prakash, asked this question of pre-SCPC salaries and their equivalence now (here and here), there appeared a need to revisit the SCPC report and understand their logic. Prakash had [...]
Again….
Why SGT of Gp X with pay scale of 5000-100-xxx are placed in PB1 with GD pay of 2800 whereas civil counter parts in GD pay of 4200 in PB2
Sgts of IAF enjoy JCO Mess, Have supervisor authy on aircrafts, take independent Flight Charge of flying machine ! but…..
Can someone convey this to Top brass!
Dear Sanjay
My Info is this anomaly has been put forward by the Naval Chief, this was one of the seven points submitted by him
dear sir
this is about majors saying that there will be a lot of disparity between them and lt col’s. No major/equivalent in the services will ever crib like that. this is because:-
(a) are the civil officers in pb 3 crying about pb4 officers?
(b) secondly, all the majors ultimately will become lt col’s (after mandatory departmental exams and criteria appointments) – so they have no reason to complain and will not complain.
god save this country and the defence forces from the leech like clutches of this bureacracy coz nobody else seems to be capable/intrested to do anything about it.