A “mute revolt” triggered by the SCPC
Someone sent me a mail by Major General (Retired) Surjit Singh on the impact on the service officers, in case government rejects the services’ recommendations on the SCPC. Surjit was a member of the Pay Cell of the army for the Fourth Pay Commission during 1983-88 and the Chairman of the cell for the Fifth pay commission in 1996-97. His views on creating a virtual mousetrap by a non-existent exit policy have been covered in an earlier blogpost here.
He gives out ten ways in which it will adversely impact the services. Let us take a look at them.
- Whilst nothing can be said for sure, chances are that there will be no visible protest. Our very disciplined set of officers will accept their fate in a fatalistic manner, but there will be a “mute rebellion” the long term effects of which can be very serious.
- Not many officers may quit the force. But those who leave will be the best of the lot.
- Professional courses will cease to be attractive. No one will want to become a specialist in military weapon systems. Officers will instead spend their energies on courses related with IT, Finance, HR and Industrial Engineering
- Officers will try to augment their income by delving in shares and real estate.
- More and more wives will take up corporate jobs. This will increase periods of separation, disrupting family life. Officers will, consequently resist posting away from the station where their wife is working
- Promotions will cease to be attractive. Therefore, professionalism will suffer.
- Military resources may be misused. When too many officers break a rule, it becomes difficult to punish them. And slowly, the aberration becomes a norm.
- Since it is known to most of the officers that the civil servants have diluted their salary structure, the modicum of goodwill which obtains in the civil-military relations will receive a further setback.
- All in all, the military will degenerate into a non-responsive organization, just like many other government services.
- …in addition to all the above evils, what may happen is that the moral authority of the Service Chiefs may be diluted. The specific recommendations of the Chiefs are known to the rank and file. If they are rejected summarily, they will be seen as powerless minions, who are not able to stand by their convictions.
One has to indeed agree with the grim picture of service officers painted by him. However, it is erroneous to blame it solely on the pay commission. The symptoms have been read correctly by the General, but the cause unfortunately lies somewhere else. The SCPC may only precipitate the crisis to an extent, but the crisis has been unfolding for a long time.
The choice of words – a mute rebellion – is interesting, but it doesn’t convey much except the feeling of helplessness usually experienced by most military officers. The discontentment and cynicism runs much deeper and if at all this “mute rebellion” gets unmuted, the blame should majorly lie at the doors of an inept senior military leadership. They have singularly failed to convey the reality and instead indulged in passing the blame to the external factors — civil setup et al. The fire that is threatening to burn the house may singe only the present top brass but the top brass of at least last 25 years, if not more, is directly responsible for the current morass.
As far as the quality of officers quitting the services is concerned, they will quit irrespective of the SCPC recommendations. It is more to do with corporate opportunities, need for faster personal and professional growth and the changing values in the society. The SCPC recommendations will never be able to match the allure of the corporate world and thus have no bearing on the exodus. Instead, the path chosen by the services to forcibly “trap them in” is ending up with this “best of the lot” disgruntled lot acting as a magnet for negative thinking and despondence in the organisation. The organisation might be keeping these souls to make the numbers but such officers need to be thrown out pronto in larger organisational interest. Sam Manekshaw’s views on the subject need to be heeded by the services.
The choice of civil courses over purely military courses has been in evidence for over a decade now and will not be arrested by the government giving out a largesse via the SCPC. The same is applicable for officers trying alternate sources of income from the realty sector or the stock market. This is in consonance with the social transformation that the middle class India has undergone since the early 1990s. The same is applicable to other professionals like the doctors or professors, who would have never indulged in similar commercial activities earlier. The service officers are no different as they come from the same stock.
Wives of service officers do not take up jobs because the service officers are in a state of penury. It is too simplistic a presumption and a straight lift out of family drama Hindi movies of the 1960s and 70s. The women in the society are better educated, ambitious and seek personal growth and financial independence on their own terms. To seek ladies from Victorian era, wearing white gloves and chatting over coffee in clubs by asking for more pay from the government is outrageously naive on part of the general. The society has changed and women seek corporate jobs because they want to and not for reasons restricted only to the lure of the lucre.
Professionalism in the services is not governed by the rat race for promotions. The present convoluted system of promotions is in fact the bane of the services in many ways. It can be safely assumed that the committed lot will still aspire to be a part of the rat race. As far as the bright lot is considered, some of them will be more keen on seeking better opportunities outside and thus will pull out of the rat race.
The misuse of military resources has been institutionalised in the name of perks and privileges. Can SCPC reverse it now? Nah…
As this blog’s favourite guest blogger BeeCee said that the statement in “Since it is known to most officers that the civil servants have diluted our salary structure” is not quiet true. “Since most officers have been led to believe that …” may be closer to the truth.
The non-responsive nature of other civil organisations has already crept in the services. Can we still aspire for a twentieth century army in twenty-first century India?
At the cost of sounding cynical, one can safely say that the moral authority of the service chiefs has already been diluted over the years. When successive service chiefs seek gubernatorial assignments, chairmanship of constitutional bodies or directorship of foreign weapon manufacturing companies, it is unlikely that their successors will be viewed by the rank and file in flattering light. SCPC or no SCPC, the moral authority of the top brass is already in the pits.
While it is true that all this predicated by General Surjit is already happening or will happen shortly in the services, to link all the ills to the SCPC is preposterous and stretching it a bit too far. Even if the government accepts the SCPC recommendations by the services, there is a process of irreversible change in place in the services that can not be arrested.
The way to stall this undesirable change is to seek reform and restructuring of the organisation — better HR policies, modern staffing models, improved work culture, value-based leadership by example, culling the Brit era externalities and so on. That is where the veterans should focus if they want to redeem the services. SCPC is a sidey issue and a very useful tool available to the current and the previous top brass to deflect attention from the actual problems that they have done nothing about. It is rather distressing to see erudite veterans like General Surjit also getting caught in that same trap.
To conclude, let me also add BeeCee’s views on the subject.
This is not to absolve the CPC or the Committee of Secretaries of their role in the discriminatory pay-structures that create disharmony within the government. I do believe that this is one of the root causes of our poor governance and administrative incompetence. But that is another issue.
Media reports of Fin. Ministry objecting to Services proposals “because others will demand parity” indicate that the basis of our proposals is not ’the discriminatory approach’ of the CPC, but ’special consideration, market forces etc’. I suspect it may not take us very far.
Not very far, indeed… As Prof. Dumbledore told Harry Potter:
It is our choices, Harry, that
show what we truly are,
far more than our abilities.
I don’t think the revolt has been mute by any standards. Veterans have been quite vociferous and so have many serving servicemen. The best part is that during the earlier Pay Commissions the senior officers asked the juniors to behave. Today they are also in the fray. Very much like the harebrained XLRI study on which the SCPC based it report. We are again spawning fiction.
Even if the Pay Commission gives the Services a better deal there will be migration to the corporate sector. Sez who? I have been a corporate man for the past 7 years and an Army man for 20 there is a vast difference between the Army social fabric and the corporate world. I am not talking of the young BPO/IT youngsters who are drained off their youth by IT/ITES employers. The Army teaches you to be civil but in the civil you have to be uncivil. Do you think IAS officers will migrate if they are underpaid? NAH and a double NAH! As a second generation Serviceman it was demeaning when the civilian asked for graft. RTO office, Panchayats, Town & Country Planning, Municipal Office, Collectorate – you name the organisation you have to pay bribe to get your work done. Don’t pay these blood sucking leeches their salary and yet they will still prefer their cozy, safe, unproductive, unaccountable job to the corporate result oriented one. In fact in corporate world IAS/IPS officers are the last choice as functional appointments like VP/Prez. They are known to be arrogant and fairly dense. Why then do they get an after life? It is only because they can use their service contacts to cross governmental hurdles. Work? Wazzat?????? Did the SCPC calculate the shadow perks of a 14 year old Collector? & don’t’ tell me that there are some honest one. I believe he went extinct with the dinosaurs. How much of his salary does he use? Reduce this to Zero and the man is still alive and kicking. Compare this to the Army man who pays for everything including petrol for his wife’s scooter to take her to school. A Collector and an Army Major go to a restaurant. Guess who gets the bill and who doesn’t. Smart Huh! Didn’t have to think much.
Pragmatics observation point to the conjecture that the Services should also realign itself to the civilian way of life. Hob-knob with militants, sell them weapons, indulge in espionage Trans border smuggling etc etc. What the heck? After all at one time most Chambal dacoits were wronged army men. After all the Fin Ministry has no money even though 71000 Crores can be doled out for election funds through some ‘save the farmer campaign’.
This is not a mute revolt – it is (D) Evolution.
To quote Prof Dumbbell Dork
It is our choices, Harry, that
show what we truly are,
far more than your abilities
@Menon:
Great rant. But what’s the point you are trying to make, Sire?
Btw, more than 200 applications of IAS officers for PMR are also pending with the DoPT. All the ills that plague the civil services do plague the services; free lunches to official cars for general’s dogs included. Maybe the corruption is more equitably distributed across the board in civil life while it is concentrated in the hands of a few in uniform.
It is not about defence versus IAS. Portraying the whole debate in these terms is fallacious and damaging to the defence services.
A lot of your questions were answered by Cdr Prakash in his guest post here–
http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/2008/04/03/guest-postexpectations-on-compensation-and-status/
@pragmatic
Great rant. But what’s the point you are trying to make, Sire?
The points expressed by Cdr Prakash are quite defeatist.
d) Accept the limitations that services have in assuring promotions to everyone.
e) Those who are not happy in the services should look for happiness outside the services.
f) Those who don’t want to leave, stop whining and accept the reality.
Why can’t we remove the limitations? Are we saying there is no solution but to leave the battlefield? ‘Accept reality’. Well said – also don’t be surrealistic
Like saying “Its bad, will get worse, so what?” Reminds me of the attitude of Second termer Ex NDAs in the IMA when I joined. They would come out with absurd statements like “I will teach you life”. How the bloody hell can a boy who has been in a Sainik School from Class 5, thereafter joined the NDA and finally graduated (?) to the IMA teach a person life?
Let us not be wishy-washy while addressing a subject. Its is not like the media reporting clashes between two religious groups. Everyone knows which two groups but we still talk in riddles. That the IAS has tarnished and downgraded the image and prestige of the Services is a fact. That the politicians are incapable of such wily acts is another fact. So why beat about the bush – call a spade a spade – if any other adjectives are appropriate – go ahead.
The civil services have their problems. Fine. So do we. We are addressing our problems. Let them do theirs AND let them not add to our problems. Are we trying to say that the down gradation of the 1947 warrant of precedence to the one after the SCPC is because the IAS has problems? That’s not just a rant – its raving & ranting.
More on this.
Cdr Prakash is suggesting that when rape is inevitable lie down & enjoy it and if raped do not complain – you asked for it.
Incidentally re. PMR of 100 IAS officers. Poor chaps. Boo Hoo!!!! SOB SOB (the tears type – not the abbrv)
With 14 years service they are in a Maj Gens pay bracket, with 25 they are in a Lt Gens Pay Bracket so why serve. Get out with the entire gratuity, safe hefty pension and use your govt. contacts to screw the Government by Liaison for procedural deviations for Corporates. In short screw the GOI from inside and also from the outside.
Contrast this with the retirement benefits of a Lt Col/Col with 25 years service. Think man think. Euphony?
very recently one corps cdr was visiting a stn so a party was organised for him. As it is a rainy season so the orders were passed to the sentries manning the gate if in case it starts raining just tell the LT col and below even if they are with their lady wives that they are reqired no more and they go back.
Army can never change?
Kartik – In many such cases the Gen wouldn’t even have known such instructions were passed.
@
menon
when the gen was col/brig he would have done it himself many times the same thing
@Kartik
The issue is something like this.
If the nuclear deal is not going through as I think it should; if the country is becoming a soft target of terrorist groups; if corruption seems to be the gateway to Mammon, what are my options as a citizen?
Option 1: Leave the country and go settle abroad, where everyday corruption is lower ( but not high level corruption – but that is a case of exchanging one set of blinders for another)
Option 2: Fight the system from within. Picket the CBI. Dharna outside parliament. Oh come on, get a life, get real, brother! Our friends tell us. Kuchh nahin honey wala. And why butt your head against the wall? So, only 0.001 percent of perople go head on against the status quo, and only 0.0001 percent of those who do succeed – they are the stuff of legend and history books.
Option 3: The middle path ( realism? / comproimse?) : Stay where you are and try to improve things wherever feasible.
Now, the same is the situation insofar as service within the system ( any system) is concerned, and that includes the services.
Our benefits pale in comparison with the IAS. It is an unfair world, and we did not choose the unfairness.
We retire with little.
The outcomes of the Sixth Pay Commision are outside our pale of influence.
So, what do we do?
Option 1: Quit the services, and exchange one set of limitations for another. ( menon, after seven years on ‘the other side of the fence’, will tell us two hundred stories of how our simple lives beat many glossy, glitzy lifestyles of the corporate world)
Option 2 : Fight the system at every step. ( Get real, man!)
Option 3: Improve things wherever possible.
Apropos the comments of Cdr Prakash, I would echo menon, with the view that disillusionment and a total giving up of hope would be disastrous for any human being. No individual would like to believe that the rest of his life is consigned to ‘enjoying the rape that is inevitable’. If any one of us thinks that this is the case, we may as well do something about it. ( refer Options 1 through 3 mentioned above).
As I said somewhere else, ‘while you must not close your ears (to the discordant notes that are sounded about the services), you must keep your eyes open to the beauty within ( the system!)
Finally, God is not going to come down to mother earth to clean up the augean stables.
Pragmatic frequently proposes a full reform of the services. I whole-heartedly agree. But then those within the system cannot wait idly for the reform to come. On our part, we must make our environment primed for it, and institute change wherever possible.
On a question as to ‘what can I do? I am just a lowly Major/ Lt Col / ‘ etc, you would be surprised to hear echoes amongst the higher ranks too: ‘what can I do? I am only a Brig / Maj Gen / Lt Gen / Gen’!!!!’
Authority comes to you only when you assert yourself. You could be an assertive Lt Col, or a nincompoop Gen. You must, however, ‘respect the constraints and work the boundaries’.
As regards the ‘assertive Lt Col vis a vis the nincompoop Gen’ part, remember that it not an either-or situation.
Any action at the individual level shapes the universe.
Do not wait for the mountain to come to Mohammed.
Cheers!
Sidey tracks permitted ?
Folks, do read Lt Gen (retd) V Oberoi’s article in the USI journal April – June 2008 issue titled `Veterans and (the ?) Society.’ Smug, supercilious stuff -despite the usual quotes from Aristotle, Leonardo, Lee Iacocca and an American milvet blogger’s senti_ menti poetry.
Extracts from his USI article:
(a) ” I have always felt and sometimes articulated that some Veterans were the Biggest Pain in the Neck for Serving Persons”
(b)” Veterans must accept the fact that they are no longer serving personnel and consequently there has to be a reduction, if not elimination of the perks and privileges” [ reduction / elimination of Pensions and Medical facilities ? About what else does he suggest that serving soldiers are annoyed with veterans. ]
(c) “While attending the Hindustan Times Summit ( Jesus Christ, how high and mighty can ex brass get ?), I had suggested this (special purpose Land Armies be formed – from veterans ) to Sonia Gandhi….”
Could go on to quote from his emails and the angry response he had from other veterans. With ‘friends’ like these in high places…..
Somewhere A GOI Star mole* ? [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_(animal)
*The Star-nosed Mole can detect, catch and .. faster than the human eye can follow (under 300 milliseconds).
@
raja
aap angrezi achhi marte ho
‘menonism’ is what is keeping me away from commenting on the blogpost. Thanks for a good time pass saar! There is always a ‘problem’ for any ’solution’ – old jungle saying!
@Veeru
I thought I understood the problem. The ‘ism’ after the menon may have created it. No harm thinking & no harm commenting. Lets not pause after the meno. Go ahead give it a shot. We all learn.
What the SCPC gives to the Armed Forces will not provide the kind of satisfaction that its members were looking forward to: that much was evident from the outset and is but natural. Part of the reason or blame lies with the hype and expectations which were created in the build-up. The proximity of the bureaucracy to the political class and the vast influence that it wields will almost always produce decisions in such matters which will ensure the continued pre-eminence of the IAS. This is how it has always been with each pay commission award and the sense of the Armed Forces being short-changed. However, the dialogue and fierce debate that has taken place this time around is primarily attributable to the explosion in the Indian visual media, the widespread use of the Internet and Armed Forces members being more vocal about the issue than before.
What needs to be done from now on is (a) refrain from anything that results in reduction in the admiration and respect that the Indian Army enjoys in the eyes of the people ( as opposed to the polity), (b) stop bickering and infighting within, (c) however slow the process, set into motion measures, at, both, the institutional and individual levels, to bring about changes that are necessary to make the IA an effective entity comprising competent personnel ( men and women) worthy of high respect (d) have a good, hard look at our recruitment policies (including those for the officer cadre) and terms and conditions of service, (e) begin the groundwork (pressure, lobbying etc) for a separate pay commission the next time it is due so that the Armed Forces get what they deserve for the commendable work that they do without seeking comparison with other services.
It is worth making the effort and the change must come from within.
@ Dilip Desai
Hoo boy! Where are we? You think the civilian is all gung ho about the brave Indian soldier. Yes, if the media is around or you do take a poll then you may get socially correct answers where a majority will say they respect the Soldier. They may also speak high of the army when they are about to get a free drink. Far from reality. Like all the pro women talk by men. A majority of them talk pro women when there is pretty thing around. Kind of gets to sync in. Remove the façade and the guy would be drooling and slobbering. In the civil world it is where you stay what you drive, where you shop and where you party. In fact gone are those days when the COAS was a great guy at the Gymkhana. In most cities the clubs are beyond affordability of veterans. The vociferous protest this time would have startled the policy makers and they will be weary of blatant acts of degradation, though they will still conspire.
The Army will not object, veterans will maintain decorum so, fire at will. What was so far taken for granted is now being viewed with concern. I believe that if Gandhiji had tried to get freedom by non-violence he would have failed. The acts of Bhagat Singh, S C Bose and the economic burden of WWII on the Raj made them quit. Under favourable conditions they would have still held on to the British Indian Empire.
Respect is when you are at a respectable position. A beggar at a railway station is given no respect if he is prim & propah. He remains a beggar and is treated as one.
Remember you have to fight for your rights. There are no free lunches. Some of us talk big because it so happens that we are well settled post retirement. I have studied a cross section of veteran officers here and they are in the lower bracket of middle class. Something even a section officer can surpass. During the last general elections I have seen PBOR herded like cattle into public goods carriers for election duties. I spoke to some of them. 60 & 70 years old and still worrying about tomorrow on a paltry pension fixed 3-4 decades ago. A fraction is okay. Even the district conservancy staffs are better off.
@ menon
Give me sometime. Busy trying to make my grey cells work at a ripe old age. I too have lots of ‘ism’ rolled up my sleeve. Will try to match up with your ‘ism’.
Till then…..bye..bye…
all problems of indian army will go away with in seconds
how?
all army officers should realise it that they have joined a government service and they start working like a government servant stop working like an army officer troubling youself as well as the men under command just because you can fix them all with the help of army act( the draconion law)
[...] This comment by this blog’s favourite commenter PS has left many readers in a frantic search of former Vice chief and CLAWS director Lt Gen (retd) V Oberoi’s article in the USI journal April – June 2008 issue, titled “Veterans and the Society“. It has not yet been uploaded on the USI website, but a friend sent me a copy of the damning piece. The relevant portion, giving out his various suggestions for the veterans, is placed under. [...]
@All
Read the story below and apply it to Pragmatic
A lady Canadian libertarian wrote a lot of letters to the government, complaining about the treatment of a captive insurgents (terrorists) being held in Afghanistan National Correctional System facilities. She received back the following reply:
National Defence Headquarters
MGen George R. Pearkes Bldg, 15 NT
101 Colonel By Drive
Ottawa , ON K1A 0K2 Canada
Dear Concerned Citizen,
Thank you for your recent letter expressing your profound concern of treatment of the Taliban and Al Qaeda terrorists captured by Canadian Forces who were subsequently transferred to the Afghanistan Government and are currently being held by Afghan officials in Afghanistan National Correctional System facilities.
Our administration takes these matters seriously and your opinions were heard loud and clear here in Ottawa . You will be pleased to learn, thanks to the concerns of citizens like yourself; we are creating a new department here at the Department of National Defense, to be called ‘Liberals Accept Responsibility for Killers’ program, or L.A.R.K. for short.
In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided to divert one terrorist and place him in your personal care. Your personal detainee has been selected and is scheduled for transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence in Toronto next Monday. Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) is to be cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your letter of complaint. It will likely be necessary for you to hire some assistant caretakers. We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your standards of care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you so strongly recommend in your letter.
Although Ahmed is a sociopath and extremely violent, we hope that your sensitivity to what you described as his ‘attitudinal problem’ will help him overcome these character flaws. Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere cultural differences. We understand that you plan to offer counseling and home schooling.
Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or nail clippers. We advise that you do not ask him to demonstrate these skills at your next yoga group. He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive devices from common household products, so you may wish to keep those items locked up, unless (in your opinion) this might offend him.
Ahmed will not wish to interact with you or your daughters (except sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property. This is a particularly sensitive subject for him and he has been known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to comply with the new dress code that he will recommend as more appropriate attire. I’m sure you will come to enjoy the anonymity offered by the burka over time. Just remember that it is all part of ‘respecting his culture and religious beliefs’ as described in your letter.
Thanks again for your concern. We truly appreciate it when folks like you keep us informed of the proper way to do our job and care for our fellow man. You take good care of Ahmed and remember, we’ll be watching.Good luck and God bless you.
Cordially,
General Bower
@Pure Spam:
Thanks for the compliment.
No media is going to take up our cause as has been seen in the recent past in the case of resentment on SCPC as well the treatment given to our First FM Sam Bahadur’ funeral. Even film stars and cricketers are treated ahead of national security. Despite the Chiefs’ request for inclusion of a member from The Services in the SCPC review committee, the same was denied. If this is the treatment we give to one of the most important institutions of our national security, we can imagine the state of affairs. ANOTHER IMPOTANT THING TO REMEMBER : This institution can neither be outsourced nor created overnight.
History teaches us that we have never given due importance to our Defence after Chandra Gupta Maurya. The result is there for all to see. So let us learn from history.
Vikas
Re menon’s Hoo boy. The respect and admiration that I was referring to pertains to that which the vast, faceless Indian public at large has for the Indian Army as a national instititution without the latter even asking for it — it came gratis and with no obligations. Tens of millions of them have never even met a soldier let alone someone from whom they could cadge a ” free drink”. Moreover, there should be more to life than being able to “afford a club membership”. As such it should be very clear that the military individual needs to suitably sublimate his search for “respect” from all and sundry in favour of that which ought to go, more deservedly, to the institution that they belong to. Perhaps this might result in some of the glow on the larger whole being reflected on the individuals who comprise it. Fighting for rights is absolutely the thing to do but what about the old saying that “respect cannot be demanded but, instead, should be earned” ?
Hi Guys
I agree with most of the comments about the continued outflow of the officers.I think this will continue post SPC also since merely increase of financial AID to serving officers will not help as it is essential to UPLIFT the status of the Services in the eyes of the nation and also in the Order of precedence.
I doubt this will happen as is clear from the following incident in which the family of Civilian killed in Afghanistan got a much more generous package that did the Brigadier.
Largely the service Chiefs are also contributing to the down slide of the services.Do you expect the government to be on your side when even the COS are not?Consider their absence at the Funeral of Sam Manekshaw a serving officer far senior to all the COS
@ Lt.Col. ( Retd. ) V.K.Arora
On another note.
We don’t write Lt Col (Retd) XYZ. The rank is with you and you can take it to doomsday. That is why after retirement we are not Mr. XYZ but Col XYZ.
I think the correct way is Lt Col XYZ (Retd). Correct me if I am wrong.
@ Dilip Desai
Re menon’s Hoo boy.
That’s a Sufi way of looking at it. Go to the Himalayas and hibernate and search for nirvana. No way. I’m human. I love my drink and my evenings and Sundays and Inshah Allah, God willing I would like to spend them in style. A fraction of the vast faceless Indians in places like Tamil Nadu or Kerala think you are a Security guard if you move around in OGs. Ever wondered why the soldier tries for a few extra bottles when going on leave to his village. It is to gain the respect of the vast faceless Indians who are supposed to dole out unconditional respect gratis and with no obligations. The old saying has been replaced. It is now – “Want respect? Go get it tiger.”
In this matter I’d like to be pragmatic euphony.
Why do we veterans think that the present generation lacks commitment to the nation which we claim we had/continue to have. Those who join the service today do so as they want to serve in it and make a contribution to the national pride and security in much the same way as we did.
Outwardly it appears that the rot set in some time back and the blame is being placed on those who were there then.
Changes are to happen and will continue to happen. However the basic personality of the person who joins the service should and does continue to be the same. Adapting and adopting modernisation should not be looked down upon.
How can we authoritatively say that the other citizens of this country, be it those in private sector or government sector, do not want more money than what they are getting. Why should not the soldier get as much as others in the private sector. After all he too is a specialist.
@menon
“We don’t write Lt Col (Retd) XYZ. The rank is with you and you can take it to doomsday. That is why after retirement we are not Mr. XYZ but Col XYZ.
I think the correct way is Lt Col XYZ (Retd). Correct me if I am wrong.”
[1] Suffix / Intermission:
It was usually as you rightly mention, say Maj Gen (Dr) TVSPKD Iyer PVSM, AVSM, VSM, (Retd). The USI journal uses this style. Probably in the DSR somewhere too. Last 5/6 years have also been seeing the ‘format’ as Lt Gen (retd) Kaptan Singh SM. Perhaps the ‘revised trend’ started when the Army officially began issuing id cards as -
Name: ABC
Rank: Colonel (Retd)
Please look at a Red & Blue Ex-Servicemen Card ( Health Canteen and Identity card)
[2] Book titles and Author details below too –
(i) History of the Naval Dockyard by Rear Admiral K. Sridharan AVSM (Retd)
[pub 1989]
(ii) Sinking of the INS Khukri, Survivor’s Stories by Major General (Retd) Ian Cardozo, AVSM, SM [pub 2006]
The Angrez don’t seem to like using ‘retd’ eg
(iii) The Royal Indian Navy, 1612 – 1950 by Commander DJ Hastings RINVR [pub 1988]
(iv) War in The High Himalaya by Maj General DK Palit VrC [pub 1991]
(v) The Third World War, The Untold Story by General Sir John Hackett GCB CBE DSO and bar MC MA BLitt LLD. [pub 1982]. This book cover has a note – ‘ General Hackett’s withdrawal from the Army ( he never speaks of retirement )….
Similar Things happen – for instance please check out:
[3] An Army Song. (Telugu version)
(Just as Loin is the pronounced Punjabi version of Lion)
Lilli Burlerao
http://www.indianarmy.gov.in/emera/CORPSSONG.htm
Lilli Burlero
http://www.contemplator.com/war.html
[4] Reverence, Respect, At your Feet Holy Father, ( Punjabi = Pairi Painda)
or ‘to regard with respect tinged with awe.’
“Revered” DGsEME
http://www.indianarmy.gov.in/emera/index.htm
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/revered
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revered
Very very interesting & thought provoking exchange of views to which I couldn’t resist the temptation of adding my 2 bits.
Wish, the Services, not only the Army, had taken the messages sent forth by a BBC Serial ” Yes Minister” & later by the Indian version” Ji Mantri Ji”, in total seriousness & adopted policies accordingly. These 2 serials so loudly brought out the finnese with which the Administrative Service, whether in UK or here, protect its’ group’s members but also the Service. Regretably, the intra Service & the inter Service efforts in our case(s) have been at cross purpose. The NDA did train & send “United Coursemates” who belonged to all 3 Services but later in life “Visions” changed & they did not gel together for common causes of the Defence Services. Full advantage has been taken of this visible weakness by the IAS lobby & the results, what U all have been discussing, are there for all to see.
Can we then, honestly, blame anyone else for th current situation other than ourselves. The politician will read what the Secy puts up & do as he did in the serials excepting ofcourse unless we had, “God Bless Him”
more & more SAMs.
It is heartening to c candid views, lessons will come out of these. Good luck 2 all of us
Respected Veterans,
Jai Hind.
It is my view that an Officer of the Army, Navy & Air Force NEVER retires; and hence there is no requirement to write ‘Retired’ after his name. Once an Officer hangs his Uniform, he is respectfully referred to as VETERAN Col.. or Veteran Gen…
Regards,
Veteran Colonel Rajan
Do doctors who cease to practise add ‘Retd ‘after their names? Also, what about court judges (‘Justice’) and civil engineers whose names are prefixed with the funny ‘Er’ (particularly in the northern regions of our country)? And IFS worthies, who were ambassadors while in service most often forget to add ‘Retd’ when their names are mentioned in seminar papers and the like even though, by custom, they are addressed as such.
Nobody seems to give a damn. In this land where “sab chalta hai”, propriety is not a strong point and our legislatures comprise a goodish number of convicted criminals and serious offenders , why bother? On an individual basis, Indian Armed Forces veterans can choose to do as they deem appropriate in the environment that they find themselves in. Some have even gone to the extent of promoting themselves from Lt Col to Col !
Lively and informative discussion
@Dilip Desai
So right Sir.
Others who promoted themselves successfully – Idi Amin and Flight Lieut Jerry Rawlings. The former gave himself a VC too. No such good works here so far. More pay commissions, award regs and exit policies may be nice to watch – say 2047 ?
Page 92 of the book ‘Traditions and Customs of the Indian Armed Forces’ pub 1984 Vision/ Orient Delhi by Maj Gen Chand N. Das OBE (retd, 1965)
says: “It has become customary in the Army that a General, Lieut Gen and Major General are addressed as General. A Lt Col may be addressed as Colonel and a Lt Cdr as Commander.” So a verbal license is self -extended. The book also explains why a Lt Gen is senior to a Maj Gen despite the contradictory naam.
The reference was not to the form of addressing a military personage but what appears in writing on house nameboards and visiting or b usiness cards.
@ Dilip Desai
You can write anything you want anywhere. As this guy writes. It is only the unoccupied mind which will notice these things. Outside it doesnt matter wheteher one is Lt Col or Colonel if you dont have the Cash to have a Life style. If one gets stuck to these Delusions of Grandeur then there is unhappiness everywhere. So relax and Fight.
ITS TIME WE REDIFINE OUR UNIFORM…
INSTEAD OF ARMY AIRFORCE NAVY..IT SHOULD BE INDIAN ARMED FORCES..
THE LANNYARD AND BADGES SHOULD INDICATE UR BRANCH OR FD OF SPECIALISATION…
NEHRU AND THEN DEFENCE MINISTER HAD SPLIT THE THREE FORCES…BECAUSE THEY COULD NEVER TRUST THEM…UNFORTUNATE…ISNT IT…AND STILL THAT IS CARD PLAYED EVERYTIME TO DEMEAN THE ARMED FORCES….THE FAMOUS QUOTE IS ” ARMY SHOULD BE UNDER CIVILIAN CONTROL”…BUT THIS DOESNOT MEAN UNDER THE COMMAND OF BABUS…IT MEANS THE DEMOCRACY…, THE PESIDENT AND THE PARLIAMENT NOT REPEAT NOT THE BABUS…
THINK IT OVER
Its ok if some one says army is rumbling, grumbling and tumbling.But why should spc have to put the paramilitary ,and civilians of the same catogary of army peoplein 5 pay commission above army people in spc.It seems no one either the defence minister or babus of finance or defence ministries,have given any satisfactory answere,except saying that army is getting msp.Msp is given because the individual is serving in military.Its a outragious unilateral arrogant decision ,thinking that The beaurocracy is end all andbe all.How can civilian babus can become so intelligent and crooked in dealing with Army,Where as they are always corrupt and failures.I do believe in democracy.Let parliament be supreme to all catogary of people.But this silent mutiny should not become an audiable one.Beaurocracy is hitting below the belt.one can watch the fun as days pass.
yes ,Iagree with you Lt.Col.Arora.This Institution can nether be out sourced,nor can be built over night.But can be destroyed by stupid decisions of beaurocracy and their political bosses.It is now time to show neusense value of armed forces,to these lot,since every one of us have plenty of the same.So far it was being shown by beaurocracy,now it is our turn.We canot expect worse treatment than already given by these babus.Let us not consider them as our bosses any more