No exit policy for military officers
Three Indian Air Force officers approached the Delhi High Court seeking release from the IAF and the High Court has turned them down. The judgment didn’t get much press coverage. A look at the statement by the Defence ministry (IAF in this case, as they represent the MoD here) is revolting:
The three – Squadron Leaders Himanshu Goswami, V. Shukla and P. Bakshi who were working as IAF pilots – had applied for premature retirement.
Goswami in his application cited his mother’s ailment and father’s old age as reason for retirement and the need for him to look after them.
Shukla in his petition, filed in August 2005, mentioned numerous family problems as his reason for seeking retirement.
His application was rejected by the IAF. The Ministry of Defence in its contention said the actual purpose of the petitioners seeking early retirement was actually to get jobs in the private sector.
“Had the intention of the petitioners been to look after their parents, they were offered with an opportunity to seek posting near their hometown while continuing the service but that was not availed”, said the ministry counsel.
The ministry also informed the court that a number of officers were applying for release from service giving vague reasons. According to them, the officers are now citing reasons such as failing business of father, looking after property of grandfather, better prospects in civil, feeling of discontentment and various other flimsy reasons. [IANS]
It doesn’t take much intelligence to shred these arguments to bits, which contravene the basic tenets of any democratic and liberal society. The courts have also been taken in by the argument of “National Security”, which is specious and misleading. The honourable judges should pay heed to the former Air Chief, S Krishnaswamy, who rebuts the common myths and fallacious arguments being propagated by the three services.
Nearly everyone who joins the air force gets to know about the required skills only after signing up. When a candidate signs for a “Permanent Commission” he is signing off his civil liberty for the rest of his working life. The recent Delhi High Court ruling on the case of three air force pilots who wanted an honourable discharge after serving for a decade or so has exposed the malady. Is the verdict, advising them against it, meant to be a message to others who want to leave?
Permanent Commission, viewed in this context, sounds ominous. The decisions on how and where to employ an officer and when to discharge him rests solely with the government and the president. Rarely does anyone in the air force, while in service and until about to retire, talk about a second career — it is like discussing life after death.
Fresh entrants in the private sector have a fairly good idea about their work and emoluments. On an average, such people change jobs every 3-5 years. In 2002-03, the air force commissioned a survey across the country on what young people think about a career in the IAF. The findings were interesting. First, the majority felt that the public is not aware of the job description and the skills required. Second, they felt that the potential for career growth after 8-10 years of service was not inspiring. Third, there was disquiet about not being able to exercise choice at the place of work; the hard living conditions and military discipline were also issues. The pay, however, was not that serious a matter.
The terms and conditions of military service should change with the times, based on the job market and public sentiment. There has been no change in the Permanent Commission for at least 60 years. I have not found any democracy in the world that has “Permanent-ly Commissioned” officers with an unspecified minimum period of engagement. The Royal Air Force defines the minimum period of engagement as 6-12 years. In the US Air Force, commissioned officers can apply for retirement after 10 years of service. Interestingly, they advertise that skills learnt in the military improve their job prospects after they leave it. Much effort is made to train military personnel to make them acceptable in civil sectors. This approach attracts quality manpower. In India, military qualifications are useless for civil jobs.
The recent court verdict gives one the feeling that the air force wants to discourage its personnel from quitting. This goes against the fundamental rights from a citizen’s point of view. The government should not expect a person to sign up “for life” in the military. It is quite reasonable to assume that if an officer performs satisfactorily for a 10-year period he has given enough to the air force in return for the skills he has acquired. It is not a cost audit on how much the government spends and how much an employee contributes. If a pilot has saved an aircraft, or crashes due to pilot error, all the accounting would come to nought.
It is perhaps the right time to examine the terms and conditions of service and to exploit the skill-sets available in a manner that would stop military men from running to the courts. The time is also right for re-examining personnel requirement. Modern air forces have a shortfall of at least 30 per cent in manpower. Indian industries and skill-sets can effectively support military aviation in all areas other than operations. It should be feasible to create private ventures, combining the skills of ex-servicemen with the industrial skills and investments that can undertake all support activities such as the maintenance of aircraft, infrastructure and civil assets and training. It is not too difficult to make a beginning, knowing well that the intentions are good and the action would benefit all concerned. [Indian Express]
There is not much that can be added to what Krishnaswamy has already said. Except that this is a part of a larger tendency by the top brass to control the lives of their subordinates in the services. If the services continue to violate the fundamental rights of their own officers, how can they ever dream of attracting the best and brightest to the services?
The services have always said that it is poor pay that is dissuading the youngsters from joining. IAF’s own survey had “pay” nowhere on the list. So much for their organisational integrity that these findings were never made public. This reaffirms the contention that it is the decadent organisational culture and feudal mindset, more than just poor compensation, that is hurting the services. They need to look the beast in the eye before it gobbles them up.
It is unfortunate that the executive is perpetuating these atrocities on the service officers and the judiciary has conveniently sided with the executive. That only leaves the Parliament, which is unlikely to take cognizance of such “mundane” issues. The last resort is to rouse the civic society through an informed media campaign and hope for intervention by the highest judiciary. That seems the only way out to salvage a seemingly helpless situation.
DO YOU HAVE IT IN YOU?
1. Would you like to join an organisation which you join at the age of 21-24 yrs and it tells you at your age of 38/41 years that now you are now unwanted in this org.(IT MEANS NO PROMOTION FOR 75-80 PERCENT of officers AFTER THIS )
Not only this the org also tells you at your age of 44/45 that now you will not get any increase in your pay( PAY SCALE FOR Lt Col is 15100-400-18300 and it starts at the service of 13 years and reaches to its max at 21 years of service)
then when you are 54 years of age it just throws you out.
and this treatment is given to atleast 75 percent of you who join together.
At the age of 45 why should you be forced to start looking for a new career. at the age of 22 only why do’nt you join an org which looks you after till your age of 60 years
2. AND ON THE TOP OF ALL THIS YOU ARE NEVER TOLD ABOUT THE FACTS ABOVE before joining the org . BECAUSE ORG knows the repercussions
3. In other services all the officers reach to the so called supertimescale after 16/17 years of service(18400—22400) In army the individual is finished at the service of 16/17 years(at least 70-75 percent of those who join)
4. Now if army officer is not a class one officer why the fact is being hidden from the young boys they must be told about all these facts before joining. In fact it should be advertised properly so that all those who join inspite of knowing the fact they never leave army.
I dunno why they are refusing this application. Perhaps they can ask them to resign if they are so desperate to leave.
@Sandy:
Which world are you living in? In the defence services, you can’t choose to resign. It is up to the government to accept it.
Btw, you can’t seek premature retirement if you haven’t served for 10 years. Before that, it has to be resignation.
As another post on this site mentions — “Defence services in india have indeed become the most legal form of bonded labour being perpetrated right uder the nose of the constitution”
Unfortunately not only the top brass but also the junior and middle brass feel that a favourable SPC is the one stop solution to all problems.
Pay hike is the last thing that can arrest entry/exodus. Bonded labour happens to be the first.
Long live slavery!!!
I have introduced other groups to this blog, and haven’t quite stopped receiving thanks for the same.
Anyone whose heart lies in the tenets of natural justice will definitely get riled at the absurdity of it all.
Today, it is a blessing in disguise if you get superseded as a Lt Col. You can then take off to the civvy street after three ‘looks’ by the system..
God save you if you had the misfortune to serve with honour, and to th erequirements of the system, and made it to Col. Gone are your chances to benture outside. By the time you get superseded, your grey cells would have been shot up and evaporated.
In effect, the better the army feels you are, the more you will get penalised!
@Raja:
Many thanks for the kind words.
Let me add that anyone who suffers at the hands of the services (and his friends, relatives and acquaintances)will never ask anyone to join the services. As these numbers swell, the recruitment problems for the services will also swell alongside. The current top brass is doing a long-term damage to the army for short-term gains. An exit barrier is in effect an entry barrier.
SO THIS WAS AND STILL IS ALL ABOUT EASY EXIT FROM THE ARMED FORCES. ANYWAY I AM FOR IT.GOOD SHOW KEEP IT UP.
an oft repeated argument against open door policy is that only the best will leave and the riff-raff (who would anyway not stand up to the rigours outside) will remain. i suppose that initially such a situation may well arise. But the long term harm of NO-EXIT would be much more.
Open exit policy will encourage people who want to continue. At least they will have better growth prospects with more vacancies getting generated with senior people leaving.
Dear all, I would like to put the facts before you regarding the blatant apathy that abounds in the Military , particularly in the IAF. All the following are true facts
1.The mortality rate of a pilot in the AF is the highest in any group in the country , even in peace time. Coal miners are a close second.
2. The IAF has the highest suicide rate amongst all other organisations in the country (15 per lakh , compared to the national average of 9 per lakh)
3. There is only one serving Air Rank whose own son is also a pilot in the IAF .The children of all other senior AIr Ranks have been guided by their parents to keep away.
4. 21 Air Marsalls and Air Commodores themselves had put up their names for flying as Co -Pilots in Air India , willing to share the cockpit under a Captain who is probably their sons age, ever since the DGCA raised the retirement age of Pilots in civil to 65 ! In all other forums however , IAF projects a shortage of pilots.
5. The court , in its judgement , reasoned that once an officer , at joining the defence services , pledges his life in the service of the nation, Terminal illnesses of father , mother , children or wife are but minor inconvieniences in his life , which he is trained to overcome!
6. IAF claims to have spent between 3.5 to 8 crores in 1 year of training imparted to a pilot and thus claims in court that leaving a pilot would incur a loss to the exchequer , even after the pilot has given 15 – 20 years of his life to the IAF!(it takes only 17.5 lakhs for a man on the street to acquire a Comercial Pilots License).
7. A few months before the judgement , IAF invited the Chief Justice of Delhi High Court , along with 3 other sitting judges, to Air HQs for a JAG conference. A week or so later , the bench hearing the service cases was changed . The new bench, after a month and half of speedy hearings, dismissed all petitions of (Airmen and Officers ) pertaining to the IAF without any relief to any one .
8. One of the officers whose father was seriously ill and who had recently asked for immediate release , was informed by a letter from the Medical Service Deptt of the IAF that his fathers condition is not worthy of requiring any special medical attention. 2 days after the officer recieved this letter , his father died. The officer continues to serve in the IAF.
9. The officers who went to court had the litigation drawn out for 3 years , at the end of which , they ended up spending more money than they would have earned in 2 years at their present pay.
10. Most of the pilots who had the “audacity ” of asking for release , have been shunted to far flung places like Port Blair on ground tenures “to teach them a lesson”.
11. No person in uniform can approach the media with any “story” as it is a court marshall offence to do so.
@Blake
it is really sad if all the points mentioned are true. THe IAF has to learn a lesson and i only hope that the concerned officers appeal in the Supreme court and get a fair deal. Pt no 8 is esp heart rendering.
[...] commenter left this comment on my blogpost about the lack of an exit policy and the Delhi High Court’s [misinformed] [...]
@ Trusty
All of this is true . And i have a lot more to say , but dont want to sound like a little girl crying ! I would appreciate some suggestions or workable solutions to this predicament that these officers find themselves in.
@Blake:
Thanks. Just posted your comments as a separate post.
http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/2008/03/23/an-apathetic-iaf-some-facts/
Do you mind taking the comments on that post?
Pragmatic,ur views on conscription?
Dear friends,
My posts om army , image and realities and shame reveal the truths that are not palatable. God bless the ignorant with wisdom and courage and some enlightenmnet and see the light down the tunnel
Any thing can be done in 3 ways.one right way
another wrong way third army way-neither wrong nor right- For this you have to blame
army senior officers.
@ pragmatic
Let me add that anyone who suffers at the hands of the services (and his friends, relatives and acquaintances)will never ask anyone to join the services. As these numbers swell, the recruitment problems for the services will also swell alongside. The current top brass is doing a long-term damage to the army for short-term gains. An exit barrier is in effect an entry barrier.
AT LAST YOU SPOKE SOMETHING WHICH HAS SOME SENSE
It is really sad to see the state of affairs. I know some officers who have put in more than 25 years of service and they are not been given release. This is going to effect the morale and also the motivation to work. long live slavery in this great democracy.
@ rani
“long live slavery in this great democracy.”
Mogambo kush hua!
Kya baat hai!!!! There is no end to this slavery. When the netas and the babus have ensured that the office of the supreme commander has been diluted, the service chiefs have degraded and belittled themselves over the years and the judiciary is not only corrupt but also biased, there is no future in the services. Today there is only room for sycophants and spineless nincompoops in the services. Pls look around and see the formation commanders in the army and air force. Given half a chance they would quit and why not. They all deserve a better life but we have alarmists like the previous CAS and present PSO,s at the service HQ who are afraid that the service especially the AF would crumble in case a couple of hundred officers in the 20 plus years bracket quit. Nevertheless the IAF has and always will have a policy of DRDO (different Rules for Different Officers). Why else will the service allow upcoming fighter pilots to quit on compassionate grounds and join the civil aviation set up. However the same rule does not apply for tpt and heptr pilots; there are at least ten superseeded officers who have been denied PR, and another dozen seniors offrs with more than 25 yrs service who wish to quit but are not being allowed to do so. The discontentment brewing in the services esp the AF should be a matter of concern to the Govt and the service hq. But then who cares……….
Kya baat hai!!!! There is no end to this slavery. When the netas and the babus have ensured that the office of the supreme commander has been diluted, the service chiefs have degraded and belittled themselves over the years and the judiciary is not only corrupt but also biased, there is no future in the services. Today there is only room for sycophants and spineless nincompoops in the services. Pls look around and see the formation commanders in the army and air force. Given half a chance they would quit and why not. They all deserve a better life but we have alarmists like the previous CAS and present PSO,s at the service HQ who are afraid that the service especially the AF would crumble in case a couple of hundred officers in the 20 plus years bracket quit. Nevertheless the IAF has and always will have a policy of DRDO (different Rules for Different Officers). Why else will the service allow upcoming fighter pilots to quit on compassionate grounds and join the civil aviation set up. However the same rule does not apply for tpt and heptr pilots; there are at least ten superseeded officers who have been denied PR, and another dozen senior offrs with more than 25 yrs service who wish to quit but are not being allowed to do so. The discontentment brewing in the services esp the AF should be a matter of concern to the Govt and the service hq. But then who cares……….
@ rotor
The ’shortage’ bogey was started to get a fair deal from the SCPC. It has failed miserably. On the contrary, the netas & babus wanting to disclaim that put pressure on the chiefs to put brakes on PMR. The chiefs too are mortals. After all who would not want to become Governor.
Service before self OR self before service???
Hiya Guys,
Let me give you all a perspective form the ring side. (I see it up close and personal!) I know of guys crying and in tears and some of them even contemplate the worst — taking their lives b,coz the fauj wont let them go tell me even if someone were to know and signed up cant he/ she ask to go after serving 15 / 20 years?? The oldies ( you know how i,m referring too) cant stand the sight of a request to go to the civi stream after a guy earns his pension ( 20 years) they grudge it as thought they give it from their pocket!! If the Govt or the defence cant attract the right talent then is it the fault of the guys already in it??? can u imagine the guy whose application has been rejected?? why aren’t the media pouncing on this and exposing it???Are they only interested in some silly breaking stories?? Won’t they doing this nation a service by exposing these turncoats? people say the military is probably the only organisation that has served this nation well. I shudder to think what will happen of it in the next couple of years. In the US, one general came up with innovative recruitment plans and it won him a general rank. can u imagine that in India where people line up in thousands for jobs we cant attract the talent ?? If we cant do it well then can we outsource it??? to whom??? Isnt it a shame ? Does the Govt do the same to a bureaucrat whose wants to leave?? a guy serves for 15 / 20 years in real tuff conditions and wants to go honourably give it to him. How come the judges talk about about national security now?? aren’t there more pressing issues at the courts on national security that are crying for a hearing ?? c,mon old guys, the ones who love to stick up those ribbons all over, there,s a lot for the taking stop sucking up and do some soul searching!!!
how many seior officers who fall in the chain of assessing a release application have let their kids join the air force or defence services.
by the way has anyone found out what are the kids of three chieves doin???? just find out and get surprised. should that be not the reason enough to quit.
air force has decided and put it down in writing that one can be released only if superseeded thrice…………. now who are they to decide this term and condition for someone midway??? moreover how can there be different exit policy for three services.
higher status job outside is another reason that makes one eligible for release…… what is higher status?????? more financial benefits is also a higher status.
if at any stage it becomes clear that one individaul under no circumstances be given select rank when the time comes, why should he have to wait till that time??????????????
forgot one aspect….. shortage of pilots…….. thats bullshit…… there is shortage of aircraft……….. media should force govt to come out with figure as to how much flying one unit does and how many pilots are available and compare it with 15 years back and the results will be an eye opener.
@ronit
shortage of pilots exists because of internal mismanagement. flying quantum has definitely come down over the years. but now one needs guys to do ‘other stuff’ rather than flying. Unfortunately, there is no provision for intake of people for this ‘other stuff’. so qualified pilots etc are utilised for simple adm tasks.
This is a very big lacuna of the system. Some of this ‘other stuff’ is important and there has to be someone doing it. but making a fully qualified pilot/technician/doc do this full time is a gross waste. And then they crib about shortage. With minimal reorganisation at least 10-15% of the shortage can be removed. At least let that many people leave.
even after utilising these pilots there is no shortage of pilots. i do not agree that there is shortage. the quantum of flying for each unit has decreased and the number of pilots have increased. it can be proved that there is n shortage but who will do it………… i can but then i tend to loose out . you know how……
ronit you hit the nail on the head. there is no doubt that there is no shortage of pilots at all but the fact remains who cares…..
what are services going to achieve by keeping these disgruntled demotivated people?they are only a BIG BURDEN on org and taxpayer and should be released immediately.
Don’t u think the age-limt of 23 is also too low. If someone asks u to decide what r u going 2 do for the next 20 years at an age less than 23, it is very hard to decide…
I think most of the countries have higher age-limits than this and also increasing the age limit will help the forces as a fellow joining air-force as pilot at 26 or 28, would have tried his hand at lot of other jobs and certainly would be more sure of what he wants from life and why he wants to join air-force as pilot.
So the age-limit should be increased.
Is there any way to Publish these Post entries in AN INDIAN NATIONAL NEWSPAPER ?
DESERTION
All very true. I used to feel that only I felt all these things but blogs like these bring out the fact that all of us are going through the same shit. Personal problems aside what really gets me is the fact that with all of us feeling the way we are ,what will happen to the armed forces in the next generation when we will probably be required to face external threats. (saw the olympics opening ceremony-then u know what I mean). Till now whatever the constraints the services have performed whatever it was asked for , be it internal strife or external , time and again. All personal issues were put aside for the greater cause. Maybe thats the reason why we dont get anything-dignity, power or money. Because we always deliver. I havent heard of the Services refusing to do a job. Simply put ,if someone is working for Rs 100/- why should I give him Rs 300/-. certainly not because I like him. Probably the realisation of the worth of the services will come when we are under aggresion, but the way things are degenerating in the services, it will be too late by then. The year 1962 comes to mind. We are not a company, quit all the Cost to Government talk etc etc, money as rightly brought out is one of the least issues. Those guys who are not in the services might want to dig deeper, for our own larger good as a country. Things are not funny anymore.
@ Kas
Have you seen that TV clipping on DD which shows a MEA spokesperson saying ”Army is not responsible for national security, it is we who decide whether there should be war or not”. But here in this blog, due to some personal enemity between the blogger and the present Army chief, the Army ‘Top Brass’ is responsible for all the ills plaguing the Army (read Armed Forces). And some of the respondents hav really started beleiving in it. GOD save the Army from these louts.
@Racer:
But here in this blog, due to some personal enemity between the blogger and the present Army chief, the Army ‘Top Brass’ is responsible for all the ills plaguing the Army (read Armed Forces).
Sorry to disappoint you. It is painful to point this out but you are way off the mark. This blog is about policy issues and has never focused on individuals. I could have ignored your charge but that would have meant lending credence to your theory.
As a US army saying goes, officers have to look beyond the range of an M-16 rifle. I can only say the same thing for you and an INSAS rifle. Look beyond the range of an INSAS rifle and you’ll realise that this blog is not about individuals, but serious policy issues. Let us look at the ideas enunciated here in that light — policy matters that need review before the services hang themselves by the nearest tree.
Friend my weapon has a range you cannot even imagine. And I do look beyond that range. Samajh ne wale ko ishara kafi hai. A swordsman will think of a sword and a riflemen will always think about rifle ranges but that may be beyond your reach so lets forget about it. This is a compliment and dont construe this as a slight or a slur.
I think its a fantastic decision from the IAF because for a common man from a middle class family like me has to take a loan and spend close to 25Lakhs for commercial pilot trg and still end up unemployed with my dreams of flying shattered becuase some random pilot who has left the IAF and has clocked more flying hours on the govt expense bags the job.
I feel if they want to leave the IAF, they should be allowed to do so but at the same time their flying licenses should canceled and they should be told to reapply for the same like a ‘common man’ and then compete with us the hardway for bread and butter.
@anony
hope no one stopped you from joining the IAF (rs 0/- joining fees vs 25 lakhs)
you can also get rich on govt expense.
wonder how such guys can eqate 100 hrs of cessna 152 with 5000 hrs of mil aviation????? truly sick!
@ Racer
“Friend my weapon has a range you cannot even imagine.”
Wow what kind of weapon might that be!
“And I do look beyond that range”
You had some eye replacement with a bird or what! Hope they replaced just your eyes with the birds and not your brain. Your talk sure appears to prove the latter.
@deeply – I prefer being true to my nation rather than hollowing it by making fake promises to the nation and its people when joining the forces to SERVE them.
You join the IAF and forces to SERVE the nation, not to serve yourself !
Now we all know whoes the ‘truly sick’ one here.
@Arthur or is it arthur,
It is beneath my dignity to even consider your birdbrained visionless question forgt about answering it.
Thats why I had written samajh ne wale ko ishara kafi hai. Nasamajh ko kya????
@Anony .
I am glad that you , through your own predicament , have voiced out what generally is the feeling amongst the civil wanna be pilots. I think your view point needs to be pitted against some of the hard facts that you may or may not be aware of ..!
1. The AF pilots joins service at the age of 18 (NDA) or 21(Direct entry) and is commissioned at 22. The selection is very strict , especially the medicals , and the attrition rate is very very high. However , it is open for all to apply for , including you.
2. Of all the trainee pilots who join the Airforce academy , only 60 % pass out as pilots , sometimes even lesser.
3. A military pilot has to undergo an exam in flying and ground subjects every year , and the subjects there are much advanced and demanding ( like tactics, advanced AD etc) and a failure in any such test grounds him !
4. The accident rate and mortality rate of a pilot in the AF is the highest in the country amongst any workgroup of people , including the Army .
5. The pay including perks , of a AF pilot is 1/10th of a junior captain in the civil aviation.
6. The time the AF pilots , who you think come out of AF to snatch your jobs from you , spend in getting those hours (1500 – 3000 hrs) is generally 15 years of commissioned service and 19 years in uniform (if Ex NDA).
7. ” prefer being true to my nation rather than hollowing it by making fake promises to the nation and its people when joining the forces to SERVE them” — this comment of yours is truly truly unwarranted . Please dont belittle the work and lives of the people who you do not know about. I can give you a lot of statistics and facts about the work , life and sacrifices that these pilots make even in their day to day life, and about the widows they leave behind, but i wont . Please remember that the AF pilots serve the the Military which in turn serves the nation which includes you too. The least you can do is show some respect.
8. First there was the race for MBA (Main Bhi AYA) and then there was this race for picking up a CPL to become a Pilot and earn quick bucks . Please remember that you were just one of the thousands who flocked the coaching classes to somehow pass the the DGCA exams and then ask papa dear to pay 20 lakhs to fly 200 hrs on a cessna to gain a CPL. Your job is being denied not by the AF pilots who leave to join Civil Aviation, but by the the early birds who joined these academies before you ! The AF pilot joins the Airlines as a trainee captain , and not as Co Pilot , and fortunately , in this country , they have as yet not decided to hand over the controls of a Boing /Airbus to a guy who has a CPL and few hundred hours on a Prop .
9. While you have spent the better part of a year and a fair amount of money getting the CPL , please realuse that the AF Pilot , that you so acutely detest , has spent the best part of his life only flying . Where else would he seek employment ,and who else would employ him with just those skillsets?
I would like to ask you just how have you been true to the nation. Not just by belittling its soldier , I hope Please show a little more restrain ..
Dear Blake,
All I have to say is, do you remember the oath you took at the academy when you got commissioned into the forces ? Wasnt it service to the nation before self ? What exactly happened to that ? Do you remember the exact words you said, if yes, lets hear it and then hear your personal reasons to leave the forces.
Secondly, I have seen the forces much closer than you think I have, being born to a father who still is serving currently as a flag staff officer in the Indian Army and an uncle who retired couple of years back from the IAF as an Air Marshal. And I know how tough the life in the forces is, espicaly the Army, but dint YOU know that when you joined the forces that now you are picking that as an excuse to move out? And yes, its the same money of daddy dearest who has served his better part of life in the jungles of north east and the valley to earn that money the hard way to get me trained. So thanks for all the ‘gyan’ about the forces which I already have a very good idea about and I have complete respect those soldiers who would serve their nation SELFLESSLY till their last breath. I am proud to say my father and uncle belong to this category of officers.
Thirdly, are you trying to say that students who pass out from civil aviation schools shouldn’t be flying at all ?
Thank god, people with a selfish frame of mind like yours arent running the aviation industry or I wouldn’t be flying charters and corporate today.
Enuff Said.
Being from the Armed Forces and having risen to the rank of a Col, I’ll say the following:-
1. Most of the disgruntlement stems from the working conditions.
2. The working conditions have become abyssymal because of the extremely skewed ratio of officers in “staff” appointments vis-a-vis officers in Battalions. I have seen 8 to 10 Staff Officers generating work for a unit which has 4 to 6 officers. A Staff Officer going on leave must be replaced by someone on temp attachement from the units, but not vice-versa. The Commanders / Staff in HQs being superior in rank (and writing/reviewing the CRs of unit Commanding Officers/other unit offrs) must exploit the units for achieving results (imagine Kargil) and their manpower for personal administration (huge for some Brigs / Generals). Mind you, they are supposed to do so, but the numbers are skewed and the administrative requirements and paperwork generated by the Staff has become mind boggling and terribly frustrating for the Young Officers! No wonder the “Mantra” today is to avoid a “Regimental Tenure”.
3. The AV Singh Part-I was a great conspiracy. It made every superceded offr a Col and today you find every Grade-1 (Lt Col) and even some Grade-2 (Maj) Staff appointments being peformed by superceded officers who have become Col (Time Scale). They all are now “apparently” senior to the officers in the units which have a fresh Col (Selection Grade) and lesser ranks. Even a G-2 feels that the CO of the Battalion isn’t respecting him enough and many places the COs are now addressing the G-1 / G-2 as “Sir”! Afterall he was 2 courses senior to you in NDA/IMA (that’s huge) and wearing a higher/same rank (albeit Time Scale).
4. AV Singh Pt-2 will now make many Lt Gens, Maj Gens and Brigs. All these will be in the Staff as Bns only have offrs of the rank of Col (newly promoted) and below. I shuudder to think about the catastrophe these additional very senior officers will create in terms of administrative requirements (from units) and paperwork which they will generate (to prove their productivity). If its along the same lines as now, all I can say to everyone reading this blog is that “the death spiral has just begun”!
What we need is to have just 1 or 2 Staff Officers for every 5 Regimental Officers and you’ll find the standards of training, job satisfaction and sense of belonging rise astronomically.
THIS IS ALL THAT AILS THE SERVICES REALLY.
Upgrade the COs to Brigs, upgrade the 2ICs to Cols….but for heavens sake, keep the ratio of Staff to Regimental Officers to the minimum required. Students of Military History and old veterans will vouch for this.
Adding to my previous post above…..
As a Young Officer 20 years ago, I remember the days when I was a 2Lt and my unit had 16 officers. The HQs above us had 4 or 5. The work was manageable and I spent a lot of time with my men looking after their training and welfare.
Today as a Col, there are more officers in the Staff and only 6 to 8 in the units. The Staff generates so much paperwork and trivia that the unit officers have no time to spend with their men.
Can’t we just reverse this? Its the only change really required.
@Anony
“ He who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance; one cannot fly into flying.”
Friedrich Nietzsche
Enuff heard .
” Scientists have proven that it’s impossible to long-jump 30 feet, but I don’t listen to that kind of talk. Thoughts like that have a way of sinking into your feet. ”
Carl Lewis
Can someone please answer my questions:
1. I am a serving officer with nine yrs seniority (2 yrs anti date ) who had applied for resignation in Aug 2006 but it was rejected in Oct 2007 stating that my resignation cannot be processed and instead they had offered me a compassionate posting.Hoping I can find some solace to my problems being in hometown for a while I accepted it after much deliberation . But they had posted me to a place 600 kms away from hometown where I am not able to be with my family nor I can concentrate on my job. When I asked the authorities of the same they told me to take this posting or it was upto them to post me anywhere in India. Hence I had to take this posting.Was it right on my part to accept this posting?
2. Now I had again applied for resignation in Apr 2008 after six months ban for applying a second time. But fate as it can be said there is a long queue now for resignation after the sixth pay commission. Unofficial sources tell me that my resignation may not be accepted a second time. In the meanwhile I have to attend a compulsory 3 months course and Iam not in a frame of mind to do the same. What should I do ?
3. In case my resignation is not accepted a second time should I opt for a third time as time is running out fast and my father’s condition is worsening. One advise I recieved was that now I should not be bothered of my parents as it was my life which was important and my parents had passed their time. My mind is not accepting the same. If my paper is rejected may be this Dec should I go for the same third time in Jun 2009?
4. Should I fight a legal case in High Court/ Supreme Court? Will it be within my financial limits? Will the process be lengthy that the purpose is not solved?
5. What are the consequences if I take a long leave for 1 month and since my family problems cannot be solved in that time continue with the same and it may be absence without leave for say sometime and will I be arrested?
6. What are the possible consequences of desertion? Can I remain in India? Should I move to a foreign country and say after sometime comeback?
7. Should I hope for the best as in the movie “SHWASHANK REDEMPTION”
that may be a VRS scheme may be formed by the govt and I can apply for that?
8. In the meanwhile how can I do justice to my job/course?
Well I hope someone can give me a logical and practical solutions to my problems?
Dear …….,
Please understand that blogging here and pouring your heart out is not going to be of any use whatsoever , and believe me when I tell you that. This is just a forum for armchair warriors to sit and discuss issues of the Defence as a mental excercise and nothing more.
My advice to you is wait and watch . Meanwhile , if the situation at hand is getting worse, take some decisive action. You can fight all the battles on paper later on . I do not know what the manpower state is in the Tecnical branch, but one thing that i can tell you is that there is not going to be any VRS in the offing for anybody anytime soon. And even if they let people go , it wont be before 15 years of service.
Please go to the court if you have atleast 4 lakhs ready in your account . But barring a miracle, nothing much is going to come out of it .
If you want , you may contact me on benny.mcarthur@gmail.com
take heart .
These are the days of our lives!
@anony
wow! a dad whos a general and a uncle whos a air mshl, no wonder you talk the talk but dont walk the walk. you spout advice for us ( who have more hours on the back of a loop than hair on your head) but convieniently dont opt to join the forces ! wonder why? as for serving , suggest you put your money where your mouth is or refrain from armchair advice. We all have `been there done that` (and still doing) when you grasp what it really means, then talk or just lay off. nuff said
I suggest you all go and see Munna Bhai and study his Gandhigiri. I had a coursemate (2nd gen fauji) who decided the Army is not for him. Good chap – Bhalla manus – No Army. Went in for YOs –tugged, repeated – tugged. Part B – No go. After 5 yrs when I went in for a course he was still around – a very respected Senior amongst his YOs mates. No pangas-No arrogance-amicable to all, said yes but did nothing. Finally he got a show cause and he said I have nothing to show ’cause I just want to leave. He’s out in civvie street doing pretty well for himself. In the ’60 there used to a programme called ‘Forces Request’ aired by AIR. An AF Anglo Indian officer who was not getting his release to go to Australia sent in a request from him to Air HQ and the song was, “Please release and let me go for I don’t love you anymore”. He is somewhere in Aussie land now.
@asdf
DO YOU HAVE IT IN YOU?
This is just a checkof your latent carnal desires. Once you join it will be in you.
Funny Bunny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@Menon:
In the ’60 there used to a programme called ‘Forces Request’ aired by AIR. An AF Anglo Indian officer who was not getting his release to go to Australia sent in a request from him to Air HQ and the song was, “Please release and let me go for I don’t love you anymore”. He is somewhere in Aussie land now.
Wow! Some time since one heard of Forces’ Request. Thanks for the anecdote.
Incidentally Forces’ Request is still on air, after 50 years. It is hosted by Priyanka and you can read her experiences here.
i am also one of the suffrer…….good to see this site…….i am no poilot….no enggr ……..not a very important person…..a asimple ground duty officer……..i have given my 24 years to this esteemed …..so called …..service…….i have my mother on death bed…….struggling with cancer……but do you know what reply i get from top bosse when i asked for PR to look aftre her health……they say……..she has done her life….you are still to go…….so dont get carried away…….this is the time for you to give back to service………till now you have enjoied …now you work……….is any one listening to me…………….yes…this is what the Armed Forces are………..i have been thinking that i will ……not only…….send my child to NDA but also encourage others to join forces……but can anyone tell me that …should i continue with the same thought process……..or change it………
is it not ……………..unjust…….and ….inhuman……
see…..instead of addressing the problem …they are waisting the time to
creat unrest among the lots……they are not taking any concrete action to plug into the problem……..my suggesstions are ………..
1. Improve the working conditions….
2. No Whims and Fancies….
3. No desires of commanders….work within the rules…
4. Ask choices for postings before posting an officer……may be 4-5 places HQ can give to choose…..
5. Maintain transperancy………
6. Take an officer for 15 years only with the choice to extend it like… ORs
7. No pension before 20 years
8. Request for PR should come at least one year in advance…..and no withdrawal later on…….so that vacency can be planned in the best manner…..
9. Emergency Exit may be allowed at any time with some cost.
10. Suitable recognition for good work done.
…………..I am sure if authorities give a concious consideration and do some constructive work on it………..instead of just passing thier tenure…..i am sure this problem is not very difficult to handle……..it is high time to address the problem…..before it goes out of hand and damage becomes irrepareble…….top brasses are just behind confirming and ensuring their promotions and top positions….they should be stopping it soon and revert the image of armed forces …as they were……….hounour and respect is what we preach……we should be following it in real sprit……….the policies should be such that they do not damage any ones personal respect and does not creat disharmony within the forces………this way it can not work……no way………it should be addressed immediatly……..”one can take horse to the water but cant make him drink”
unintrested will not deliver the results…rather spoil the show…..so….. better we let him off………….thanks
Hello Friends – I am a wife of Wg Cdr
- “The recent court verdict (regarding 3 pilots) gives one the feeling that the air force wants to discourage its personnel from quitting. This goes against the fundamental rights from a citizen’s point of view. The government should not expect a person to sign up “for life” in the military.” – There is not much that can be added to what Krishnaswamy has already said.
BUT I WOULD LIKE TO GIVE A NEW VISION TO THE TOPIC
1. The topic of PR is for Tech and Ground Duty officers also and not for Flying Branch alone.
2. To start with – One must understand that NO Organisation is Bad — IT IS PEOPLE WORKING IN THE ORGANISATION MAKES IT BAD ?
3. Many laid down policies in IAF are just an eye wash – it is on whims and fancy rather than on EXACT YARD STICKS OR CRITERIA.
(3A) Posting Tenure – IAF has given more than 5 yrs tenure at a place and repeated tenure at one place to so many officers only on PERSONAL LIAISON rather than on yard sticks as per exiting Tenure policies. JUST LOG ON AOP SITE AND SEARCH THE OFFICERS BY S.NO. AND SEE THEIR POSTING PROFILE. There are many officers who have spent their entire life in Delhi Area only.
(3B) EXIT POLICY : – Again it is on whims and fancies and just a eye wash. one CAS comes in Power like S Krishnaswamy – gives Premature Retirement to all officers who have applied. Second CAS comes in power – and stops all Premature Retirements – Can anyone say – it is as per policy – Exit policy depicts few grounds – Did the IAF evaluate the application as per the submitted grounds/Yard Sticks/Criteria — the answer is BIG NO – the standard reply is given to all – “UR APPLICATION WAS CONSIDER AT APPROPRIATE LEVEL AND NOT AGREED TO”
(3C) There are many more such whims and fancies going on – But i would like to restrict to these two in this post.
4. We call ourselves citizen to independent country – Every citizen of the country including Prime Minister of India can leave his job after giving stipulated time frame Notice but NOT THE OFFICERS that too WHEN THERE IS NO WAR AND NO NATIONAL EMERGENCY. The Constitution of India is also written by human only – & to err is human — Who takes the decision to open a war with other countries – say pakistan – It is all political powers who will open a war and give orders to Defence – THEN HOW THERE IS NO CLAUSE OF RESTRICTION IMPOSED ON THESE POLITICAL POWERS IN CONSTITUTION – during war and National emergency ? Which otherwise means that all civilians including political powers (Prime Minister also included) can leave their post during War and National emergencies also. Another Point of view – Yes, certain restrictions have been imposed on Defence Personnel during peace time and during ACTIVE SERVICE (war or national emergency) – Does the Constitution clearly brings out that during peace time, after 20 years of great service to the Nation – the individual officer is still does not deserve Premature Retirement that too on the grounds that lays down in Exit policy.
5. It is nothing else but to say – OFFICERS ARE THE PRISONER OR IAF AND BONDED LABOUR – any one who wants favours being in prison – must have good liaison (CHUMCHA GIRI) of atleast one AVM or AM to get his all postings as per his choice/long tenure/all medals etc… Today, I feel even Airmen are much better than Officer in IAF – atleast they can leave the service after 20 yrs – since large number of Airmen started going out – IAF started a new stunt – Branch Commissioning ? IS IT A WISE IDEA OF POLICY MAKERS ? Atleast I dont think so. Let us take it as a very good idea of Branch Commissioning 33% Airmen – THEN WHY THE IAF REQUIRES DIRECT COMMISSIONED OFFICERS THOSE WHO HAVE COMPLETED 20 YRS OF SERVICE – why not give 500 more BC to Airmen and give Premature to all those who are asking for it.
6. PR Case of my Husband
(a) He is Permanent low medical cat. our kids are also sick and there is no permanent cure guaranteed in Allopathy. He has unearthed the scam of K’Oil and illegal employment of locally settled people whose Nationality was also questionable at AF Stn Leh recently. The said irregularity continued more than 2 decades. Instead of appreciation for upholding National Interest, we were mentally tortured and harassed. In COI ordered by HQ,WAC, He was blamed for the points which were not even in the terms of reference. He was given 3 show cause notices within less than 24 hrs AND AN ADVERSE CAREER CERTIFICATE beside many other harassments. As on date, It is proved that he was and is clear of any charge against him and IAF has taken very lenient actions against two consecutive blamed AOC’s with very mild Admin Action and left many others without any action against them.
(b) He has applied for Premature Retirement on (6a). IAF has turn down the application with STANDARD REPLY. Feeling aggrieved, my husband had put up an ROG under Section 27 and Para 622. Here I would like to bring out what Section 27 and Para 622 states : –
27. Remedy of Aggrieved Officers. Any officer who deems himself wronged by his commanding officer or any superior officer and who on due application made to his commanding officer does not receive the redress to which he considers himself entitled may complain to the Central Government in such manner as may from- time to time be specified by the proper authority.
622 (b) Scope of Complaints. Complaints made under section 27 of the Air Force Act, 1950 must show that a service wrong has been done to the complainant in that he has been deprived of a service right or privilege. An officer may make a complaint on matters not arising from the service, but such complaints will not be deemed to have been made under section 27 of the Air Force Act.
(c) IAF gives the reply “Non acceptance of the request of PR does not per se constitute a Service Wrong for the purpose of Section 27 of the AF Act, 1950”. My husband is asking IAF – Does it written in any policy that is above laid down Section 27 and Para 622 of Regulation of AF.
(d) we had 9 posting tenures in 22 yrs 5 months – thus av tenure at one place 2y5m. As an alternate to PR, my husband has requested for screening of posting for 5 yr on the health of kids grounds. Medical documents of PGI and Command Hospital are attached for ready reference. IAF after 2 yrs of long correspondence has turn down the screening request also with same STANDARD REPLY.
(e) SO, FRIENDS – I HAVE GIVEN A CLEAR GO AHEAD TO MY HUSBAND TO BELL THE CAT – REOPEN THE SCAM AGAIN.
7. Lastly, It is the people who makes the organisation Bad – and if the organisation has already became bad — Some one has to Bell the organisation with all possible ways rather than leaving it on ones faith and destiny. The Policy Maker and those who implement on juniors will surely wake up one day and start working on exact criteria / Yard sticks rather than on whims and fancy.
HAVE A GREAT DAY!
@ Sangeeta
Your rhetoric against the IAF is biased and without any merit. While you deride the service please introspect and see how true your husband has been. As a spouse you take all benefits from the service and then have the audacity to write against it in a public forum. This is highly irresponsible and reeks of poor up bringing which your dear hubby in any case has displayed by hiding behind your pseudo-identity and posting this blog. He has posted the same on the CAS website and has shown complete disrespect for the very service that has nurtured him till date. Not only are you doing grave harm to yourself but you are sullying the name of this great service. There are ways and means within the service to seek redressal and airing your grievances in public in this manner speaks volumes about Wg Cdr’s OLQ. Please refrain from such acts.
well said rotor., people like this and his better half are part of the ‘aberration’ that is seen within the elite armed forces.. shame on them to have blogged the way they have in this forum..
@ Sangeeta,
Very good points. But like Mr Subodh had said, if you bang ur head against the wall, ur head would break. Nothing is going to happen to the wall.
Do u think the service is ancestral property of rotor or orange dragon.
I am surprised that only so less has been done to ur hubby. Generally ppl atleast in army go the full length and keep harassing till the other person gives up. So u r still better off.
A/N/AF service is the only service in the entire world, where the employer by force retains the employee, whether the employee wants to work , does work, will work or not is totally immaterial.
depps @ Do u think the service is ancestral property of rotor or orange dragon. surely not my friend..but not the place for guys like you for sure.. guys like need to go ,, surely no place in an org like the forces..getting guys out ought to be the first step towards the change that pragmatic keeps talking about….
@ Depp
Do u think the service is ancestral property of rotor or orange dragon.
Pal that is the difference between you and me. You take the service as your ancestral property and enjoy the fruits of what your predeccesors have nurtured while for Orange Dragon and me its is an institution that needs to be protected and improved upon. Let me assure you that but for an odd aberration, the service has grown beautifully in the past quarter of a century that I have been associated with it. There is a saying in Punjabi “Jo Lahore budhoo woh Peshore budhoo.” So whether the likes of you are in service or out of it you would display the same sense of ir-reponsibility and un-belongingness. May the service understand this and flush out the impurities out of its system at the earliest.
@ rotor and orange dragon.
Very gud that u took offense. But did u both read what u wrote promptly. Husband was an empl of GOI, not urs. and spouse has the right as a citizen, if nothing else.
It seemed that both of u were aware of the couple. If u r so bothered abt OLQ, why doesn’t AF discharge him. Do not try to bully here. It does not work. Internet is not ur command (most presumably u must also be retired. So don’t become more loyal than the queen herself.
This is a pathetic sense of loyalty. There is someone’s life invoved and these rotweilers are baying for blood.
The guy wants to go. Isn’t it logical that he is allowed to leave. What does the org gain by holding on to a disgruntled officer.Would Sangeeta have come to this forum before her husband had gone through the entire gamut of ROGs, Non-Stats and Stats.
For one whose husband has treaded this path, I can assure you that banging your head against a wall is preferable. Out here the reaction from the wall (the system) will not only leave a lump on your head but in addition, you will also get one at a place where it shall hurt you much longer.
Yes, these are odd aberrations, but hold back some financial benefit (in case there is likelihood of some financial irregularity which may surface at a later date) and let the guy go and try to enjoy his life.
@Rotor
It was really cheap to divulge the officers’ name.
Hello Rotor and Orange
-I will surely give my comment on your comments slowly but sure
-Let me appraise you first – that I am Sangeeta wife of Wg Cdr Sudhir Kumar Dhaawan – WHAT IS ROTOR ?? — u dont have even sense to disclose ur identity ? – Do you think, Web is only of false peoples ? – and others are also false like you. If you cannot give advise to others critically and DO NOT HAVE SENSE TO analysis any problem critically – then better be away rather than giving a diplomatic reply as u have stated in comments 58 and orange in 59 has agreed to — ARE U PEOPLE ARE PAID BY IAF TO do such sort of acts ??
- I am Sangeeta Dhaawan, qualified Lawyer – At one pt of time i wanted only divorce my hubby because i am always engaged in kids medicines and their regular check up; and my hubby always come back home with lot of tenses and his own work – we never realised that we are in jail of IAF UNLESS WE APPLIED FOR PR AND FINALLY SCREENING FOR 5 YRS AS PER POLICY IN VOGUE.
- GOD NEVER DOES IT ANY HUMAN : – Imagine you have only two kids — and the best of doctors of the world (r) world says he or they are dying — WILL U ACCEPT IT AND ALLOW YOU OWN KIDS TO DIE ? -the answer is obviously NO – but there are many – must be u also – WHO MAY SAY – the best of the doctors have said it – kids are dying – so they are dying – will die- I CANT DO MUCH .- BUT MY HUBBY NEVER ACCEPTED THAT – HE HAS READ ALT MEDICINES AND HE NEVER SLEPT FOR ALMOST 6 MONTHS – AND SO I – HE BECAME A MASTER OF ALT MEDICINES – AND TO MY KNOWLEDGE – HE HAS SAVED MORE THAN 5 LIVES AS ON DATE – THOSE WHO WERE DECLARED AS DYING BY ENGLISH MEDICINES AND BEST OF THE HOSPITALS.
- You never gave any suggestions to the problem – it is forum to give and take advice — WHAT CORRECTIVE ADVICE YOU HAVE GIVEN EXPECT SCARING ME AND OTHERS ?
Rest tomorrow – my kids and hubby are waiting for me for dinner … bye till tomorrow
-
Sorry Rotor and Orange
Please give advise – rather than giving diplomatic answers.
let us keep emotions separately. Discuss policies and rule position ?
There are certain points on which an individual can apply for PR in Exit Policy – own kids are sick and it is long sickness – with relapses at any pt of time which may lead to ……DOES THIS GROUND DO NOT FULFILL THE EXACT YARD STICK FOR PR – DO U Advice THAT THE DECISION SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE ON WHIMS AND FANCY RATHER THAN ON EXACT YARD STICKS AND CRITERIA ONLY ?
- WHY DONT YOU give ur valuable advice on this ?
- Once the yard sticks / criteria is given in the policy ? Either the system should say the documents produced are wrong and take Admin action against individual for producing wrong documents. IF IT IS CORRECT – WHY NOT GIVE the individual what he becomes autho for..
- rotor – As a spouse you take all benefits from the service
Did the org gave me such benefits without any work done by my hubby ?
Any or Every Org in this entire world – gives certain perks and Privileges associated with Pay for his service to the org. What so great has been availed by me as you say ??
– @ complete disrespect for the very service – Rotor
Friend – Respect is what is earned and not demanded ?
What do you say on this ?
2 yrs continuous correspondence with the org is a less time at appropriate forum ? – First application for PR – then ROG for PR – it is processed as ROG under section 27 and 622 and latest HRM policy on the subject and CAS has disposed off the ROG as per HRM policy by giving speaking orders to the officer – THEN THE QUESTION RAISED – DOES THE HRM POLICY ON HANDLING ROG IS ABOVE THE PROCEDURE LAID DOWN IN PARA 622 ?
- At this time the words came from Org ““Non acceptance of the request of PR does not per se constitute a Service Wrong for the purpose of Section 27 of the AF Act, 1950”.
YOU TELL ME — WHERE IT IS WRITTEN ? THAT AUTH SHOULD BE ABOVE THE AUTH OF SECTION 27 AND 622 ? PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME AND OTHERS ALSO ?
- 2ND REQUEST ON SCREENING
Please advice or give relevant information — WHO IS AUTH FOR ASKING SCREENING OF POSTING AT ONE PLACE FOR 5 YRS ?
if an offr who had 2 yr 5 months av tenure at one place in 23 yrs of service and never availed 4 yr or 5 yr tenure at any place and no repeated tenure — DOES HE BECOME AUTH OR NOT ? IF NOT THEN U TELL ME WHAT ARE THE YARD STICKS ????
IF HE STILL NEVER BECOMES AUTH — THEN who is auth ?
Officers those who are availing long tenure and repeated tenures at Delhi – ARE AUTH – AND WITHOUT EVEN APPLYING FOR THAT ??
EVERY person working in the ORG HAS TO JUSTIFY THEIR ACTIONS AT SOME PT OF TIME AND AT SOME FORUM ? (NO ORG IS BAD — IT IS PEOPLE WHO MAKES IT GOOD OR BAD)
- No one in this world would like to bang his head against the wall and die except :-
(a) Mentally Sick persons
(b) Those whose suffering is much more than the suffering of banging head against wall
What you say — we belong to which cat ? give ur justification also ?
So, Please give specific advice with your experience and knowledge on the subject ?
HAVE A GREAT DAY!
Dear Mrs Sangeeta,
If I may suggest you something ,there is no point trying to educate people who dont want to.Ostriches with heads in sand cant hear/see.
Release from service is a favourite tea time talk and everyone who contributes to it has some point in it but no one want to take any action on it.
In my case I had asked a question in supreme court as why not make a certain period of notice before some officer wants to resign,say 3 to 5 years depending on his stream and shortage(after he finishes his bond if any).
Unfortunately court gave a diplomatic answer (as usual) saying that it is matter for the govt to decide and not the courts.
Unfortunately you dont get justice in court of law,what you get in court is called justice.
I had not understood one thing as to why a person has to have a reason quoted by them only to constitute a ground for release?
Simply I dont want to serve further and I hereby give a notice of three(or four or five years)after which I may be relieved from service without any benefit.
I know my own classmate whose wife commited suicide.So he had put up a simple request on compassionate ground to post him to delhi for 02 years by which time he will settle his kids with their grand parents.However he was not posted to delhi.
My wife had a post abortion high risk pregnancy for which I had just asked 02 months annual leave in the month of Feb march 97 while I was under order of posting from CH(SC) Pune.CH(SC) had recommended the A/L.But Navy refused to grant me the same.
So every one suffers from whims and fancies like this but unfortunately you cant make it understand to other people.
I had sought a large no of answers in courts which they did not ddress However fortunately they did not deviate from the main topic that is my release from service.So at 18.5 years I was out of service without any benefit (leave alone pension they dont even recognise me as ex serviceman as I have been released on my own request Not that it matters to me much).
Thus I shall say again the same dialouge in a film
MAIN ISKO APANE DIL KI AAG DIKHA RAHA HOON TO YE USPE APNI CIGARETTE JALA RAHA HAI.
I shall give you sincere sugestion dont pour your heart out to heartless people they are not worth it.
However if I may be of any help to you you may contact me on my email drsubodhkhare@yahoo.co.uk
Regards
Subodh
@Disgrunt
If you read my above post I have tried to clear a little fog around the topic.In that you are not likely to get any relief from any of the three pillars of democracy(Executive,legislature and judiciary).Not to say much from the fourth pillar (Press).They are busy in increasing their TRP,sales etc and hence busy in publishing BREAKING NEWS.
SO what is the choice?Learn the rules of game and help yourself.No one will help you in forces leave alone outsider.Do you expect anyone to listen?
NOt even your close friends will listen
Saying about forces–It is like a mentally retarded elephant crossed with an overfed python.So if you are planing to send your son to NDA dont do it.May be your grand son as by that time I expect forces to improve substantially.
About your son-If he is good he will find his way through
And if he is no good send him to forces he will rise upto a level and then you can look after him when your juniors will be in positions of power when you can leverage things.
So my sugestion is if you think you are good go ahead regardless without expecting anything from anyone.
If you think you are not then nothing like a govt service.
As par I am concerned I used to say before winning a case in court–
If I cant win then who can win?
Now after winning I say If I can then every one can win.
Regards
Subodh
THANKS SUBODH
UF drsubodhkhare
A WONDERFUL ADVICE – I AM ALSO ON SAME TRACK.
I WILL CATCH U SOON – BUT RIGHT NOW, I HAVE TO FEED MY HUBBY AND KIDS.
I KNOW AND SEE THE POWER AND SAYS GUTTS IN HIM TO FACE THE (I WILL SAY PPL IN POWER RATHER THAN ORG) – THE PPL IN POWER HAVE SPOILED THE IAF
ITS TRUE
DID U HEAR THE FLASHING NEWS TODAY MORNING USA MAKING COMMENTS ON IAF.
I WILL TAKE ALL POSSIBLE ADVICE FROM U TO SORT OUT WRONG POWERS OF IAF ON EVERY FORM AT EVERY FORUM
AFTER ALL, I HAVE GOT THE RIGHT TO HELP MY HUSBAND TO FIGHT AGAINST WRONGS
SORRY, KIDS ARE CRYING, I HAVE TO CLOSE HERE ITSELF – BYE – WILL COME BACK TO U SOON
Hi Guys,
I encountered on this blog by chance, while looking for a job (in USA).
Like Kushwant Singh used to say – ” with malice to none” I would like to say the following to you all!
I have been out for over 20 years now after serving 15 years. I was top AF cadet in NDA, opted to join IMA and got commissioned in the Army. Joined artillery and got into Air OP as a helicopter pilot. During service I got disgruntled due to various reasons – like bad or no accommodation, irrational senior officers etc. My life in the army and AF was great due to my brother officers and families. It took me 4-5 years to get out.
BTW, the movie ‘VIJAYTA’ was made at the AF academy, and shows some of my AF Officer Cadets who did training with me at the HTS in 1982 and ex-NDA AF colleagues. I was the AirOP course senior as a Captain. Some of you might see this article and remember me. I was a great guy and gave all a great time before handing over the parade to the instructors.
Though I have been in the USA for the last 20 years, I have missed my life in the forces. I have nightmares about wanting to go back and about the trauma I underwent while struggling to leave.
I look back and feel that it was not worth it. USA or the civil street is not a bed of roses, as I have been struggling to make a living all these 20 years. No security and/or warm fuzzy feeling of my paycheck going directly to my bank like it used to, while I used to enjoy those parties and golf in the Forces.
I feel that the senior officers should have some compassion on the officers serving under hardships and give them a good and enjoyable career. They should go easy, however firm though, and make the young officers feel that they made a worthwhile decision to join the Forces. They should look at how the IPS and IAS are enjoying automatic promotions with no hardships et al.
My 2 cents to all brother officers and senior officers is that the forces is a great way of life, enjoy living and flying and playing with great officers and families around you. The 20 years is not a very long time, as I have been in the US for 20 years and repented that I should have completed another 5 years and then left with grace, as a superceded officer.
My colleagues who went on and retired normally, have had their children educated, made houses in cantonements and are living a good retired life with pension, however small it may be.
Civil stream in India or elsewhere is not all that good as it looks from our duty stations. You can always join your dream outside once you come out.
Don’t let me ruin your disgruntledness, I know it is a great feeling to crib, I have been through it, been there and done that. But learn from my experience that it is great to finish what you so honorably started. We went through a lot of hurdles and prayers to get to those academies and that commission and flying.
I spent thousands of $$$ got my ATP etc but am not flying, so please take heed and enjoy the few years which will fly very fast and you go home happily. Unless ofcourse you have very compelling personal reasons, do not even think of leaving.
BTW, the airline dream is on its way out in India due to the bad worldwide economy, welcome to the civil world. You can fly till 65 anyway if you still want to fly. Don’t be in a hurry guys.
After you leave service, you will still be around and another 20 years will go by so very fast and you will wonder how small your 20 years in the AF were.
So friends, cribbing aside, enjoy while you are in there. In my nightmares, which I have frequently, due to my insecurity in civil life, I am sweating to get back in uniform, I see myself in NDA again as a cadet, and I am telling the squady that I used to be a major etc….. it is difficult to explain and visualize what I have undergone these last 20 years out of my smart uniform.
I hope you all agree with a guy who left in 1988 and destroyed his great career and life long dream of flying by leaving. Please enjoy a drink on me today for my sake, even if you don’t agree.
May God bless you all – my friends!
Reggie Boy – that used to be blue eyed in uniform once!
(Though I had brown eyes, just like all of you, I guess!)
Jai Hind, Jai Armed Forces
THANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS MAJ RAJINDER SINGH
BELOW IS THE LATEST – ITS NOT ME WHO IS SAYING – MILLIONS OF EMAIL ARE FLOATING ON THE WEB – AND IT IS THE EXACT COPY OF THAT —
1.An Olympic shooter wins Gold (Only a game) & Government gives him 3 Crores. AND he becomes a brand ambassador for many products earning many crores more !!!
Another ace Shooter dies, fighting terrorists (Saving our country and our lives) & government pays his family 5 lakhs !!!.
2. Do not worry about those who have come thru boats…
Our forces can easily defeat them…
WORRY about those who have come thru votes….
They are our REAL ENEMIES….
3. What a shame and disgrace to every citizen of India that the elite
NSG Force was transported in ordinary BEST buses, whereas our
cricketers are transported in state of the art luxury buses !!!
4. these Jawans lay down their lives to protect every Indian and these cricketers get paid even if they lose a match, we worship these cricketers and forget the martyrdom of these brave Jawans. Our politicians and even the policemen insult the brave martyrs.
5. The Jawans should be paid the salaries of the cricketers and the
cricketers should be paid the salaries of the Jawans.
Please be a patriot and forward this to everyone u know.
Really great!!!!!!!!!!! Hats off to India !!!!!!!!!!!!!
………………………end of email contents.
I FULLY AGREE – THAT – IT IS A MATTER OF SHAME ON INDIA
MORE PAY TO BABUS AND LESS PAY TO DEFENCE PERSONNEL.
WHY NOT DEFENCE SHOULD TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY – WHY POLITICAL MINISTERS ARE REQUIRED IN THIS COUNTRY ? WHY NOT ARMY CHIEF TAKE OVER THE CONTROL OF INDIA AND LET EVERY CITIZEN OF THE COUNTRY SHOULD SERVE FOR DEFENCE FOR FIRST 3 TO 5 YRS AND THEN ALLOWED TO GO OUT OF OPTED TO CONTINUE IN DEFENCE.
ATLEAST, I THINK, THIS IS THE GREAT SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM IN INDIA.
HAVE A NICE DAY!
Dear M. Sangeeta,
The facts you mentioned are sad but true. The situation is not going to change. I am still waiting to receive my gratuity. So don’t expect things to change et al.
Some of my ex-service seniors and friends, are sitting ‘dharna’ near Jantar Mantar agitating and doing ‘fasting unto death’ for you and us all, as we speak – per se, and demanding better service conditions, better pay and pensions at par with the civil services.
I can only advise, whoever cares to take my advise, that no point cribbing, just keep your head up, serve till achieving retirement – 20 years or later.
There will be plenty of flying to go around, if that is one’s aim.
If someone is suffering and needs to redress grievances, do so, and don;t expect anything to happen, if something comes along in your favour then accept it as a bonus.
Good luck, and May God Bless our ’services’,
Reggie